General Purpose Battle Rifle: KAC SR-25 14.5" ACC vs 16" APC

K

Kennn

Private
Minuteman
Nov 23, 2023
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9
Nevada
#1
Would be equipped with:
  • KAC 7.62 suppressor
  • NightForce ATACR 1-8 FC-DMx
  • Offset Aimpoint T-2
  • Cloud Defensive Rein 3.0
  • Vertical Foregrip
I don't plan on putting a bipod on this. More of a battle rifle. I'm tall and decently strong but I don't want it to be unwieldy.

For all distance engagements. Definitely short-distance. I'm not sure the 14.5" (with suppressor) would be any better at CQB than the 16", but I'm not sure.

Which do you recommend?
 
#6
The weight (especially out front) of what you propose is pretty daunting.

I'd instead consider a custom 16" Proof carbon fiber wrapped .308 big block gasser weighing in at around seven pounds, saving you something like 1.5 LB in just the basic weapon. I really like your scope, tactical light, vertical grip, and offset RDS choices, along with no bipod. Maybe an Aimpoint P-2 instead of T-2 to save a couple of ounces at no detriment to you. But, I'd go with much lighter suppressor, like the OSS Flow 762 Ti or CGS Hyperion K, saving 0.75 - 1.1 LB out front where weight matters the most.
 
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#7
MSTN said:
The weight (especially out front) of what you propose is pretty daunting.

I'd instead consider a custom 16" Proof carbon fiber wrapped .308 big block gasser weighing in at around seven pounds, saving you something like 1.5 LB in just the basic weapon. I really like your scope, tactical light, vertical grip, and offset RDS choices, along with no bipod. Maybe an Aimpoint P-2 instead of T-2 to save a couple of ounces at no detriment to you. But, I'd go with much lighter suppressor, like the OSS Flow 762 Ti or CGS Hyperion K, saving 0.75 - 1.1 LB out front where weight matters the most.
Click to expand...
Thank you for your detailed reply. I definitely want a stock SR-25. I’m worried that going to 14.5” in barrel length sacrifices too much velocity for any kind of range. I’d also like the extra power I guess. On the other hand, maybe I’m limiting my range anyway with the 1-8? What would be your ideal SR-25 & suppressor setup where I can handle short range combat and still make shots out to 600 yards or possibly more, or is that just not possible?

The 16” also has the advantage of being slightly more accurate and able to sustain more continuous fire due to the heavier barrel. Not sure if that matters though.
 
#8
Ken Mueller said:
Thank you for your detailed reply. I definitely want a stock SR-25. I’m worried that going to 14.5” in barrel length sacrifices too much velocity for any kind of range. I’d also like the extra power I guess. On the other hand, maybe I’m limiting my range anyway with the 1-8? What would be your ideal SR-25 & suppressor setup where I can handle short range combat and still make shots out to 600 yards or possibly more, or is that just not possible?
Click to expand...
KAC APC (16" bbl) set up per your preferences would be prob the best fit...you wont be running and gunning with it but its still a fairly versitale platform...Go ACC for a little bit of weight savings trading off a SS cut rifle barrel (APC) for a chrome-lined barrel (ACC). My ACC was 1.5-1.75 MOA at 100m on avg w/my loads and had no problems with 2/3 ipsc targets at 600m. I used my KAC 7.62 QDC on it, wasnt overly long...
 
#9
nn8734 said:
KAC APC (16" bbl) set up per your preferences would be prob the best fit...you wont be running and gunning with it but its still a fairly versitale platform...Go ACC for a little bit of weight savings trading off a SS cut rifle barrel (APC) for a chrome-lined barrel (ACC). My ACC was 1.5-1.75 MOA at 100m on avg w/my loads and had no problems with 2/3 ipsc targets at 600m. I used my KAC 7.62 QDC on it, wasnt overly long...
Click to expand...
Were you able to run and gun with your suppressed ACC? It really doesn’t seem like a whole lot of difference on paper, 0.6 lbs + 1.5”, but possibly that feels much different when you use it.
 
#10
Ken Mueller said:
Were you able to run and gun with your suppressed ACC? It really doesn’t seem like a whole lot of difference on paper, 0.6 lbs + 1.5”, but possibly that feels much different when you use it.
Click to expand...
I never used it like that but it would prob be a lot easier than most traditional large frame ARs if you wanted to use it as such. I sold it a while back as i didnt shoot it all that often
 
#13
Short large frames have cartridges that need more barrel to use the power in them. A lot of that powder will be burning in the can making it screaming hot and causing mirage. For 600yds a 12-16" 6 ARC or 6.5 Grendel is a better pairing of cartridge to purpose. I have a 12.5" 6.5 Grendel with Silencerco Saker that I think has a great profile and can ring steel at 600 no problem. They suppress better as well. More rifle may not be better in this case. Also I like a heavy butt stock like UBR to help balance the suppressor. It may be heavier to carry, but will shoulder better. If you are interested in comparing this guy shoots 123g SST at 2341 fps with 12.5" of barrel..
PXL_20231223_022511224~2.jpg
 
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#14
Old Man with Gun said:
Short large frames have cartridges that need more barrel to use the power in them. A lot of that powder will be burning in the can making it screaming hot and causing mirage. For 600yds a 12-16" 6 ARC or 6.5 Grendel is a better pairing of cartridge to purpose. I have a 12.5" 6.5 Grendel with Silencerco Saker that I think has a great profile and can ring steel at 600 no problem. More rifle may not be better in this case. Also I like a heavy butt stock like UBR to help balance the suppressor. It may be heavier to carry, but will shoulder better. If you are interested in comparing this guy shoots 123g SST at 2341 fps.View attachment 8303648
Click to expand...
That rifle looks great and I appreciate your input. So I guess this would be sub optimal for 600 yards, yet I still want one. What combination of 14.5” barrel vs 16” barrel and short vs full size suppressor would you pick? For primarily engagements from 25-600 I’m going to guess.
 
#15
Ken Mueller said:
That rifle looks great and I appreciate your input. So I guess this would be sub optimal for 600 yards, yet I still want one. What combination of 14.5” barrel vs 16” barrel and short vs full size suppressor would you pick? For primarily engagements from 25-600 I’m going to guess.
Click to expand...
Personally it depends on intent, making something good for both home defense and 600 yards is all compromise and not ideal for either. I don't think any large frame is good for kicking in doors, so I say you are likely to be disappointed in both for up close and the 16" is best at distance. Highly suggest you shoot one before buying if you can to set expectations, that is a lot of money.
 
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#17
On the suppresor question it is counter intuitive. Because of the short barrel and indoors I'd recommend the longer suppresor for up close. With more barrel and likely outdoor a shorter will balance better for distance. You may consider a modular can like the Rugged Surge that can be 7" or 9" as you please.
 
#18
Old Man with Gun said:
Personally it depends on intent, making something good for both home defense and 600 yards is all compromise and not ideal for either. I don't think any large frame is good for kicking in doors, so I say you likely to be disappointed in both for up close and the 16" is best at distance. Highly suggest you shoot one before buying if you can to set expectations, that is a lot of money.
Click to expand...
I shot another 16” 308 and I assume they’re pretty similar. Didn’t have a suppressor though. I’m not planning on using this for HD. Making an SBR 300 blackout for that. This would be purely for outside use.
 
#23
APC is more accurate with slightly less recoil. I normally keep the ACC's within 500 yards, they are a lighter easier to run and gun with, I keep them fairly lightweight. APC's I'll take out to 800 often, but I have them weighed down with more stuff and a good bipod is needed at distance. As far as stringing goes, It depends on your required group sizes and how much volume you're putting out. I'd say it's a non issue for how I run the ACC's, as I don't have the same precision requirement as I do with the APC's.
 
#24
tom12.7 said:
APC is more accurate with slightly less recoil. I normally keep the ACC's within 500 yards, they are a lighter easier to run and gun with, I keep them fairly lightweight. APC's I'll take out to 800 often, but I have them weighed down with more stuff and a good bipod is needed at distance. As far as stringing goes, It depends on your required group sizes and how much volume you're putting out. I'd say it's a non issue for how I run the ACC's, as I don't have the same precision requirement as I do with the APC's.
Click to expand...
That makes sense, thank you. What is a good price for an APC upper? Includes the updated bolt. I have one lined up but I don’t want to be ripped off.
 
#25
I haven't seen any APC uppers come through in months, Last ones I sold were just over $4K, Haven't seen any ACC uppers in a much longer time. Not sure about the updated bolt or BCG. There was some rumors about all the newer guns getting the 6.5 BCGs, but I've only seen them in 6.5 uppers so far.
 
#26
tom12.7 said:
I haven't seen any APC uppers come through in months, Last ones I sold were just over $4K, Haven't seen any ACC uppers in a much longer time. Not sure about the updated bolt or BCG. There was some rumors about all the newer guns getting the 6.5 BCGs, but I've only seen them in 6.5 uppers so far.
Click to expand...
Ah ok. Do you think I should take this one for 4.5k or negotiate down further?

Also, will I be able to make use of the increased accuracy with the ATACR 1-8?
 
#29
The ATACR is a very nice scope, but LPVO tend to have thicker reticles and are not ideal for precision at distance. If most of my shooting would be past 100yds I'd be looking for a low of 3-4x and high of 15-18x myself.
 
#38
I cant speak to the Knights rifles specifically, but Ive gone to using my 13" SCAR 17 with a Banish 30 for run and gun stuff. Our stages are only like 60 seconds, we shoot maybe 40-45 rounds, and farthest target is maybe 25 yards. Im very muscular, but I find that the only thing that does is give me reduced stamina compared to the smaller guys. Ive shot out to 400 with my Trijicon 1-6x, but its difficult for me due to magnification. I definitely see no need for a red dot with the 1x scopes. Depending on the bullet Id be confident getting to 600 with an adequately powered scope. Im definitely not as fast with the SCAR as I am with my 14.5 AR with K can, but the difference after acclimating wasn't near as bad as I thought. Especially given the trade of on energy on target and distance.
As far as velocity. My 147 grain loads did 2608 or so from 16" barrel. They do 2525 from a 13" barrel.
 
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#39
I was shooting my 300 BLK AR15 and my 308 Win Ar10 yesterday. In weight, recoil, and size of components it is a comical difference. Sure, you can run and gun with an AR10. But for me, the AR15 is a much better fit for run and gun. The AR10 is a natural for a DMR role. And out to 600 yards, I have no problem target shooting with a 5.56 AR15 and an Acog.
 
#40
I recently had D Wilson convert a 14.5" V7 fluted 308 barrel to the LMT mount and had a HUXWRX brake pin and welded. Ive got a 762 FLOW and a much heaver HX-QD. Sans suppressor, its surprisingly light--even if the LMT upper is itself not a light weight. Even with the heavier can, its not terrible. Holding the LMT 16" vs the 14.5" V7 was... :oops:

I have a Sig 8T and an Eotech x5 magnifier on it for the fun factor; I have a DIY 16" 308 with an LPVO. The 14.5" was sort of a "what fun can I have with 308" project... I dont have velocity info yet
 
#41
Ken Mueller said:
I’m going to do most of my shooting at around 25-200 yards with some to 600.
Click to expand...
You need to give more detail if you want good recommendations on rifle and optic choice.

What do you plan to shoot? Is it big or small? Is it hard to see or easy to see? Is it moving?

What does the bullet need to do when it gets there? Poke a hole in paper? Ring a steal gong? Kill something(if so what)?

Depending on your answers a 1-8x ATACR could be too much glass, not enough, or perfect.
 
#43
With the ATF wait on a factory built SBR being what it is, there is no way I would buy a SBR.

I built a 16” 308 for use with a “k” can. It is much handier than my 24” 308, with the advantage of some suppression. (The can is rated for 16” 308, not shorter.) FGMM is around 2430 fps- a bit over 200 fps slower than the 24” rifle. Cutting another 1.5” might lose an additional 50 fps. While that is a real difference, I don’t think I’d let 50 fps be the deciding factor.

Shoot-ability and “handiness” are opposed characteristics in a firearm, but I think 14.5 v 16 may be splitting hairs.

For my use, I think the ATF hassle + cut rifling would be enough to accept the small weight and length penalty.

Is there enough meat on a 16” KAC to have it chopped and threaded? The wait on a Form 1 SBR is MUCH shorter than a form 4…
 
#44
hlee said:
With the ATF wait on a factory built SBR being what it is, there is no way I would buy a SBR.

I built a 16” 308 for use with a “k” can. It is much handier than my 24” 308, with the advantage of some suppression. (The can is rated for 16” 308, not shorter.) FGMM is around 2430 fps- a bit over 200 fps slower than the 24” rifle. Cutting another 1.5” might lose an additional 50 fps. While that is a real difference, I don’t think I’d let 50 fps be the deciding factor.

Shoot-ability and “handiness” are opposed characteristics in a firearm, but I think 14.5 v 16 may be splitting hairs.

For my use, I think the ATF hassle + cut rifling would be enough to accept the small weight and length penalty.

Is there enough meat on a 16” KAC to have it chopped and threaded? The wait on a Form 1 SBR is MUCH shorter than a form 4…
Click to expand...
My wait was a whole 3 weeks for a form 1 SBR…
 
#45
hlee said:
With the ATF wait on a factory built SBR being what it is, there is no way I would buy a SBR.

I built a 16” 308 for use with a “k” can. It is much handier than my 24” 308, with the advantage of some suppression. (The can is rated for 16” 308, not shorter.) FGMM is around 2430 fps- a bit over 200 fps slower than the 24” rifle. Cutting another 1.5” might lose an additional 50 fps. While that is a real difference, I don’t think I’d let 50 fps be the deciding factor.

Shoot-ability and “handiness” are opposed characteristics in a firearm, but I think 14.5 v 16 may be splitting hairs.

For my use, I think the ATF hassle + cut rifling would be enough to accept the small weight and length penalty.

Is there enough meat on a 16” KAC to have it chopped and threaded? The wait on a Form 1 SBR is MUCH shorter than a form 4…
Click to expand...
That’s okay, KAC doesn’t sell a factory large frame 14.5” SBR on the civilian market anyway.
 
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#46
This is a seven year old attempt on my part to produce something along the lines the OP was attempting to create. The base rifle is an ounce or two over seven pounds. It will shoot sub-MOA 5-shot groups with match grade ammo. I can get 1.2 MOA out of MK319, the most devastating metal-on-meat 7.62 cartridge imaginable. Wish I could find it these days...

The only changes I've made over the years are the upgrading the trigger to a TriggerTech and upgrading the suppressor to the OSS Flow 762 Ti. I've added an Aimpoint P-2, but it isn't shown in this photo.

IMG_4105.jpeg


Battle Arms Development no longer makes big block stuff like this, but I'm currently very happy using V Seven and Seekins for .308-based builds now. There are more appealing low power variable optics now than my old Kahles K16i, but it is still a fine optic. more than adequate for my perceived needs. None are lighter in weight or have better glass, I don't think. This package as shown with no magazine or ammo weighs in at 10 LB 2 OZ.

My current #1 all purpose rig is this 14.5" Proof CF barrel 6mmARC, with Kahles K18i (light missing) weighs 9 LB 4 OZ with no mag or ammo. New upper on old lower with Geissele NM trigger. Sub-MOA rig with the usual Hornady 108 ELD-Match. I've shot it successfully out to 700 yards on steel, where I ran out of reticle.

IMG_4205.jpg
 
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#47
hlee said:
With the ATF wait on a factory built SBR being what it is, there is no way I would buy a SBR.

I built a 16” 308 for use with a “k” can. It is much handier than my 24” 308, with the advantage of some suppression. (The can is rated for 16” 308, not shorter.) FGMM is around 2430 fps- a bit over 200 fps slower than the 24” rifle. Cutting another 1.5” might lose an additional 50 fps. While that is a real difference, I don’t think I’d let 50 fps be the deciding factor.

Shoot-ability and “handiness” are opposed characteristics in a firearm, but I think 14.5 v 16 may be splitting hairs.

For my use, I think the ATF hassle + cut rifling would be enough to accept the small weight and length penalty.

Is there enough meat on a 16” KAC to have it chopped and threaded? The wait on a Form 1 SBR is MUCH shorter than a form 4…
Click to expand...
Don’t chop a knights rifle. You’ve answered your own question. For your wants the apc will be miserable to run. The cc is exactly what you’re looking for. 0-600 is no problem.
 
#50
TheOE800 said:
Neither are in production currently. Unless KAC announces a PRG CQB your only current option is the 1.5lb thing I was talking about, though I think it’s only 8” not 9”. 😂
Click to expand...
I heard from Rooftop Defense that KAC is releasing a new suppressor in the next year that’s shorter than the 8” one. Asked KAC, they wouldn’t comment.
 
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