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General Purpose Battle Rifle: KAC SR-25 14.5" ACC vs 16" APC
- Thread starter Kennn
- Start date
Yeah there are prototype pix out there.
Don’t tease the poor guy! They don’t sell the new delta or whomever they’re for guns to just anyone.
I own maybe 20 semiautomatic .308s including a KAC SR-25 CC. Your selections are great work on paper, but maybe not reality. Several things from experience:
1. Rifles like the CC (battle rifles) are meant more for the "see the enemy across the field/gorge, move, take cover/lay down, put aimed fire on the target while shooting from support" paradigm, not the "stand there, shoot fast while larping in armor, then run" CQB/carbine class paradigm. In other words, they're for a type of fighting that doesn't occur often, especially for non-Ukrainian civilians. Battle rifles are great on the square range, though, which is where I shoot mostly.
2. Handy battle rifles like the CC live at the ragged edge of handiness. The surest way to kill that handiness is to add an LPVO. As variable optics go, they're not comparatively heavy, but they're heavy enough high enough to make an 8.5 lb rifle a 10 lb rifle, and I've found that 10 lbs is about the cutoff before a gun starts to feel unwieldy. Personally, I like the TA110 on the SR-25 CC.
3. If you don't choose a KAC suppressor, your options are quite limited due to the barrel's 3/4"-24 threading and muzzle face indexing. I use an OSS/Huxwrx suppressor, so I had to bore and tap their 0.595"-32 flash hider and time that with the KAC shim pack to make it work.
4. Make sure you look through several scopes before selecting. Most people love NF, but there's something about their glass I just don't like that I've never been able to put my finger on.
5. Presumably you want to do both CQB and distance shooting from one rifle, but those are almost two different games, both shaped by expectations (of speed and precision, respectively). A short .308 will slow you down up close and increase difficulty out far. Trajectories get a little whack out past 350–400, enough that a few tenths of a mil can change a hit into a miss. If you want to walk fire in at a distance, you'll need an optic and rifle hold that'll keep you in the eye box through recoil and the SR-25s considerable counterrecoil. An LPVO at 8x will not be that optic.
6. Ammo matters way more with .308 semiautomatics than most people think. I'd declare the SR-25's pickiness level as "average". Stick to the classics like FGMM. Remember that when you change ammo, you are no longer zeroed.
1. Rifles like the CC (battle rifles) are meant more for the "see the enemy across the field/gorge, move, take cover/lay down, put aimed fire on the target while shooting from support" paradigm, not the "stand there, shoot fast while larping in armor, then run" CQB/carbine class paradigm. In other words, they're for a type of fighting that doesn't occur often, especially for non-Ukrainian civilians. Battle rifles are great on the square range, though, which is where I shoot mostly.
2. Handy battle rifles like the CC live at the ragged edge of handiness. The surest way to kill that handiness is to add an LPVO. As variable optics go, they're not comparatively heavy, but they're heavy enough high enough to make an 8.5 lb rifle a 10 lb rifle, and I've found that 10 lbs is about the cutoff before a gun starts to feel unwieldy. Personally, I like the TA110 on the SR-25 CC.
3. If you don't choose a KAC suppressor, your options are quite limited due to the barrel's 3/4"-24 threading and muzzle face indexing. I use an OSS/Huxwrx suppressor, so I had to bore and tap their 0.595"-32 flash hider and time that with the KAC shim pack to make it work.
4. Make sure you look through several scopes before selecting. Most people love NF, but there's something about their glass I just don't like that I've never been able to put my finger on.
5. Presumably you want to do both CQB and distance shooting from one rifle, but those are almost two different games, both shaped by expectations (of speed and precision, respectively). A short .308 will slow you down up close and increase difficulty out far. Trajectories get a little whack out past 350–400, enough that a few tenths of a mil can change a hit into a miss. If you want to walk fire in at a distance, you'll need an optic and rifle hold that'll keep you in the eye box through recoil and the SR-25s considerable counterrecoil. An LPVO at 8x will not be that optic.
6. Ammo matters way more with .308 semiautomatics than most people think. I'd declare the SR-25's pickiness level as "average". Stick to the classics like FGMM. Remember that when you change ammo, you are no longer zeroed.
I did that with a mount for my TBAC, but couldn’t get the gun functioning reliably with the gas situation going on there. I’d only recommend going the custom muzzle decide route for a flow through can at this point given the essentially immutable gas system on the KAC.
Right now crs is your only option. I like the crs it’s a good in between.
While these aren’t KAC rifles I think my experience with them applies to the OPs question. Disregard the painted one, it has an 18 inch heavy barrel. The black one I used on patrol when I was on the job. Our qualification with the SBR was the same with the large frames. It was timed at 2 minute max and you had to score 85% and 3 second penalty for any missed shots. We started in a car with seatbelt on, you had to get your rifle out of the mount and prone out at the rear of the car and engage a steel target at 200 yards. You then would run 100 yards and go to a barricade that had a different slots cut out and fire 2 shots from three different positions. Move to your right and advanced another 25 yards to another barricade doing the same. You’d advanced another 25 yards a fire 3 shots from cover behind a barrel. Then you advanced to a ”shoot“ and weave between cones and close the distance to the target firing your remaining rounds. It may sound like no big deal but I can guarantee you that your heart rate will be up and you will be breathing…..
Only four of us were authorized to carry the large frames and everyone else had to use the issued 516 SBRs. No matter how light of a large frame you have you will notice the weight and length difference. One guy was a freak of nature and at his age he would do the course in about 50 seconds with the SBR and about a minute and 5 seconds with the large frame. I being older, I was always at least 15 seconds behind him.
i also use the black one to hunt with, with the can I think it comes in about 10 pounds. I carried it through the woods and hills of Tennessee to hunt hogs with. I can honestly tell you I don't notice the weight at all when hunting. And hunting deer in my home state the weight doesn’t matter. The barrel on it is a medium profile and it’s 16 inches. I’ve shot it with ball ammo at 600 yards on a reduced IPSC target and hits were boring (lol)…. I’d miss every now and then but that was on me. I wouldnt go less than 16 inches.
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10 pounds is pretty light compared to the SR-25s. Loaded, I calculated the 16” with my configuration at about 14.5 pounds with the KAC CQB suppressor. I could get that down to 14 pounds by dimpling the barrel, making it the same weight as the 14.5” ACC. What would you recommend I do?
While these aren’t KAC rifles I think my experience with them applies to the OPs question. Disregard the painted one, it has an 18 inch heavy barrel. The black one I used on patrol when I was on the job. Our qualification with the SBR was the same with the large frames. It was timed at 2 minute max and you had to score 85% and 3 second penalty for any missed shots. We started in a car with seatbelt on, you had to get your rifle out of the mount and prone out at the rear of the car and engage a steel target at 200 yards. You then would run 100 yards and go to a barricade that had a different slots cut out and fire 2 shots from three different positions. Move to your right and advanced another 25 yards to another barricade doing the same. You’d advanced another 25 yards a fire 3 shots from cover behind a barrel. Then you advanced to a ”shoot“ and weave between cones and close the distance to the target firing your remaining rounds. It may sound like no big deal but I can guarantee you that your heart rate will be up and you will be breathing…..
Only four of us were authorized to carry the large frames and everyone else had to use the issued 516 SBRs. No matter how light of a large frame you have you will notice the weight and length difference. One guy was a freak of nature and at his age he would do the course in about 50 seconds with the SBR and about a minute and 5 seconds with the large frame. I being older, I was always at least 15 seconds behind him.
i also use the black one to hunt with, with the can I think it comes in about 10 pounds. I carried it through the woods and hills of Tennessee to hunt hogs with. I can honestly tell you I don't notice the weight at all when hunting. And hunting deer in my home state the weight doesn’t matter. The barrel on it is a medium profile and it’s 16 inches. I’ve shot it with ball ammo at 600 yards on a reduced IPSC target and hits were boring (lol)…. I’d miss every now and then but that was on me. I wouldnt go less than 16 inches.
Would I be able to use the 14.5 for bear defense or would I be better off with the extra 1.5”? Someone mentioned a 50 fps difference but I’m pretty sure it’s more like 150 fps.
While these aren’t KAC rifles I think my experience with them applies to the OPs question. Disregard the painted one, it has an 18 inch heavy barrel. The black one I used on patrol when I was on the job. Our qualification with the SBR was the same with the large frames. It was timed at 2 minute max and you had to score 85% and 3 second penalty for any missed shots. We started in a car with seatbelt on, you had to get your rifle out of the mount and prone out at the rear of the car and engage a steel target at 200 yards. You then would run 100 yards and go to a barricade that had a different slots cut out and fire 2 shots from three different positions. Move to your right and advanced another 25 yards to another barricade doing the same. You’d advanced another 25 yards a fire 3 shots from cover behind a barrel. Then you advanced to a ”shoot“ and weave between cones and close the distance to the target firing your remaining rounds. It may sound like no big deal but I can guarantee you that your heart rate will be up and you will be breathing…..
Only four of us were authorized to carry the large frames and everyone else had to use the issued 516 SBRs. No matter how light of a large frame you have you will notice the weight and length difference. One guy was a freak of nature and at his age he would do the course in about 50 seconds with the SBR and about a minute and 5 seconds with the large frame. I being older, I was always at least 15 seconds behind him.
i also use the black one to hunt with, with the can I think it comes in about 10 pounds. I carried it through the woods and hills of Tennessee to hunt hogs with. I can honestly tell you I don't notice the weight at all when hunting. And hunting deer in my home state the weight doesn’t matter. The barrel on it is a medium profile and it’s 16 inches. I’ve shot it with ball ammo at 600 yards on a reduced IPSC target and hits were boring (lol)…. I’d miss every now and then but that was on me. I wouldnt go less than 16 inches.
You're defending yourself against bears now? In your "somewhat urban" environment have you come across many aggressive black bears while LARP'ing and doing "offensive CQB"? I mean fuck, what about the lizard people or the aliens, or Jehovah's Witnesses?
A totally logical idea....what did you used to take with you for bear defense while camping previously?
Especially poor bears. Only high class bears
pinkies out.
I was way wrong on my statement about the weight. Everything on it, including a loaded 20 round mag and it comes in at 15.4. Without the can ita 14.4. Stripped, no scope, bipod, magazine or laser it is 11.2 ...
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You can do a lot with a 14.5" 308 rifle, with a few caveats:
-Ammo selection for task is important. I am a big fan of 110-130gr class projectiles from them. M118LR and similar 175gr are going to be moving at around 2400 ft/sec, and that is not helpful for wind past about 300, or terminal effect.
-Suppressor weight is a factor. I can't say too much, but lighter weight suppressors from KAC are coming, if factors other than overall dB reduction are your priority.
-If distances past 600 or so aren't a priority, I'd highly recommend one of the good quality/lightweight optics such as a Swarovski 1-8x in a lightweight mount. They're still plenty capable, but reducing weight where is doesn't matter helps.
-Make sure you are certain you want 308 for your needs. I really like 6.5 for staying short without giving up performance, but I really don't see that same advantage with 6.5 at distances closer than 300 or so for hug hunting. I do, however, see a significant performance gain with both when compared to anything coming out of a small frame. But a 14.5" 5.56 equally equipped will be easier and faster to move around.
-Ammo selection for task is important. I am a big fan of 110-130gr class projectiles from them. M118LR and similar 175gr are going to be moving at around 2400 ft/sec, and that is not helpful for wind past about 300, or terminal effect.
-Suppressor weight is a factor. I can't say too much, but lighter weight suppressors from KAC are coming, if factors other than overall dB reduction are your priority.
-If distances past 600 or so aren't a priority, I'd highly recommend one of the good quality/lightweight optics such as a Swarovski 1-8x in a lightweight mount. They're still plenty capable, but reducing weight where is doesn't matter helps.
-Make sure you are certain you want 308 for your needs. I really like 6.5 for staying short without giving up performance, but I really don't see that same advantage with 6.5 at distances closer than 300 or so for hug hunting. I do, however, see a significant performance gain with both when compared to anything coming out of a small frame. But a 14.5" 5.56 equally equipped will be easier and faster to move around.
Jack,
What's your thoughts on 5.56 16" small frame running 855A1 or Barnes 70gr tac-x compared to a large frame 500m and in? I don't remember what the velocity was on my 16" with the barnes but I hear they'll expand at 1500fps. I know the 855A1 does just over 2900fps outa my 16". The 855A1 was doing just under 3100fps outa a 20".
Paul T.
Operationally speaking when I operate I only operate the sleekest of operational platforms, it’s in 25 Beowulf wearing a carbon 29 inch baril, with offset sights, HAS to have offset sights so when my main ncstar goes down I can cock that bich sideways hood style and continue to operate wrecking lips and breaking hips. Suppressors are for larping queers, eardrums are for faggots.
This,
Most people when thinking about 308 gas guns or "Battle Rifles" tend to haphazardly set their rifles up with conflicting themes because they really don't know what they are setting the rifle up to do and they end up with these weird 14lb CQB/DMR hybrids that get relegated to the back of the safe.
What makes much more sense, but when recommended, people start to break out in hives, is just getting a second upper or rifle configured appropriately.
for example.
Upper 1
14.5 CC/w Aimpoint Micro T-2
Upper 2
16 PCC/W 2-10/3-18 class optic, and maybe if you are bored throw an RMR in an offset mount.
Mount the can and light as needed. its 2023. QD attachments are a thing and won't result in you getting burnt at the stake.
KAC says alot of stuff,
For example, the people that signed up for the one part at a time/Christmas special have been waiting almost 5 years for the balance of their parts to show up.
They also have been talking about their 14.5 inch 6.5cm uppers for almost 4 before they finally started showing up on gunbroker for 15k.
No one here can speak for KAC better than I can.
New suppressors are releasing at SHOT.
14.5" 6.5: we were talking about a government program, not commercial availability. A small run was released commercially, what customers did with those after purchase is their right to do with their property.
Lunchbox was always planned as a sequenced release, we simply got crushed by post-covid material shortages and increased gov orders which pushed the previous and final parts sets to the right. We accepted no orders or anyone's money until the parts were in boxes and ready to ship.
Dude.
We are not talking trailer mounted micro nuclear reactors or hand made swiss watches, we are talking about some aluminum gun parts.
Elon Musk was able to announce the cyber truck, build the Gigafactory, and make delivery in less time than than its taking KAC to do their lunchbox special
I love you guys and you make great stuff, but that is terrible.
New suppressors will be released at SHOT but when will they actually be commercially available? That’s the $10,000 question.
Still waiting to see these hit the streets a year after they were released.
In my opinion, it depends on what I'm shooting at, what distance the majority of shots will be at, the distance of greatest risk, and whether or not I am with other people and what they are shooting.
I am well past the "5.56 is weak and useless" phase of life. I went to war a few times with 5.56 as my primary, and it did its job. I have used it in competition out past 1,000 yards as well as close range action-y stuff. M855A1, as rough of a start as it had, does work. I do tend to lean on 77gr/MK262 type-stuff in 5.56 more than anything else, as I have the highest confidence with it in the 300-800 area. That said, if I knew that I was going to be inside 300 with active human threats, I would reach for a handy 5.56 rifle with an LPVO before a large-frame of any configuration.
Past 200 I have significantly more confidence in the terminal effect of good 308 or 6.5, and in my experience, 308 deflects *less* than 5.56 through brush. That matters to me in some contexts.
No, we aren't talking about aluminum gun parts. We're talking about barrels, bolts, and carriers. The same parts that carry rated commitments that came up right after the project plan that were reallocated to meet those needs. This was a fun project for 150 people that went south.
New suppressors will be released at SHOT but when will they actually be commercially available? That’s the $10,000 question.
Still waiting to see these hit the streets a year after they were released.
We took precisely zero commercial orders for these due to low demand, a mounting mechanism redesign, and production priority focused on contract suppressors.
-CORRECTION-
A small number of orders were accepted for these early on, but the reasons above pushed production to the right.
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Surprised there was no demand given NT4s are selling for a bagillion dollars on the secondary market.
Mostly seems to be that the highest demand is for the traditional welded NT-4s like the USMC just bought several tons of, that we are still releasing to meet backorders around the other contracts. It's kind of sad really, as the NT-4 PRG is an awesome suppressor and really what people *should* be wanting in 2023. But, especially when it comes to collectors, the heart just wants what the heart wants.
LoL..
A fun project for who.... Anyway, on a different note, any plans on the KS1 hitting the commercial market?
Reading through this it seems like everyone is taking turns giving some kind of jab at jack from kac. Seems like a great way to get him to NOT want to answer or help with any real issues or questions we have. He has always been extremely helpful to me and has always answered any question on here extremely professionally and well thought out
The whole "Lunchbox" thing is a nod toward the "One Piece At A Time" song by Johnny Cash, where a guy slowly assembles a car over 21 years by sneaking parts out of the factory in his lunchbox. We released these in stages: in a marked lunchbox for the first set of parts (upper and lower receiver with selector and trigger, PN 495051), in a marked toolbox for the second round of parts (handguard, receiver extension, end-plate, buffer, action spring, and muzzle device, PN 525354). Third and final set will be the barrel, bolt, and bolt carrier. It's a mix of generations of parts, again, homage to the song. Unlike the song, it was not our intent to have this take 5 years to complete. It was fun for the folks that got in on it to get rare/discontinued parts from the factory, and gave us an opportunity to provide cool stuff to fans.
Don't worry, we learned our lesson with this one and this kind of "non-production" special offer will most likely never happen again.
We will be officially releasing the KS-series of rifles at SHOT for the commercial market, though they have been known about for a couple of years now.
I don't see much negative with a 14.5" 7.62 inside 300 when compared to a 16".
The reduced velocity of the 14.5" will mostly start to be noticed at 500 or so, and the trans-sonic range will be noticeably closer.
I have shot my 14.5 7.62 past 1000, but really just for shits and giggles.
We brought back the 14.5" SR-25/M110 to fit a niche role where OAL was a primary factor but intended to be used mostly inside 300 with a thread-on suppressor. The thread-on suppressor (DSR) ultimately wasn't the final configuration, as the Mod 2 gas system gave us a more reliable operating window than we thought we'd need, allowing a QDC suppressor to be used.
This is the example I use teaching students
While most are coping the SR25 from 30 years ago KAC is constantly improving the design for todays battlefield.
Nice,
Glad to hear that the KS series is going to hit the market, Will have to pick one up. Are you guys going to do uppers initially or just stick to complete rifles for the time being?
Uppers and rifles should be available at the same time.
I may have to bite the bullet and buy one.
Do you know if there will be a factory option for a pin/weld? Or possibly a 16" version for commercial market?
I had a KAC 16" APC for almost a year. Excellent rifle. I even kind of regret selling it.
But it just didn't fill the need I was looking for at the time.
It was heavier, clunkier, and slower than my small frame rifles by a margin. I tried hunting with it, but it was annoying. I shot a DMR match with it and was no more effective than I am with my 5.56 or 6.5G precision rifles [even at longer distances].
It was stupid accurate under 600yds, but I had notably more trouble hitting targets at 800 and 1000 when compared to my 20" 308 bolt gun.
I determined that the KAC APC was not a good fit at all as a general purpose field rifle.
I ended up selling it, and building a 12.5" 6.5G.
The 6.5G is way faster, I still consider it a heavy hitter [hits a lot harder than 5.56 anyway], it's notably lighter and handier than the KAC, and I can still reach out to the same distances with just as much [if not more] confidence.
I prefer the 6.5G for 80% of scenarios to the KAC APC. Still wish I had the KAC, but strictly for a precision heavy gasser, and the Gucci name, nothing more.
Cheers
But it just didn't fill the need I was looking for at the time.
It was heavier, clunkier, and slower than my small frame rifles by a margin. I tried hunting with it, but it was annoying. I shot a DMR match with it and was no more effective than I am with my 5.56 or 6.5G precision rifles [even at longer distances].
It was stupid accurate under 600yds, but I had notably more trouble hitting targets at 800 and 1000 when compared to my 20" 308 bolt gun.
I determined that the KAC APC was not a good fit at all as a general purpose field rifle.
I ended up selling it, and building a 12.5" 6.5G.
The 6.5G is way faster, I still consider it a heavy hitter [hits a lot harder than 5.56 anyway], it's notably lighter and handier than the KAC, and I can still reach out to the same distances with just as much [if not more] confidence.
I prefer the 6.5G for 80% of scenarios to the KAC APC. Still wish I had the KAC, but strictly for a precision heavy gasser, and the Gucci name, nothing more.
Cheers
Noveske.
It came with a matched JP bolt. I've clover leafed Hornady black a few times now when shooting groups. I'm a believer in the Noveske stainless barrels.
Also, I've never ran it hard, but I'm yet to have a malfunction that wasn't related to me playing around with the gas/buffer. Fingers crossed she stays strong.
Edit: I also have a new 18" Noveske 6.5G barrel that I don't think I'll end up doing anything with if someone wants it for below market price.
I agree that 6.5G has certain advantages over 5.56 and .308, all things being equal. But things are not always equal.
One factor I consider when selecting calibers is the availability of ammo in an extended SHTF scenario. I doubt 6.5G or even 6.5C will be widely available, so those guns become nothing more than awkward clubs in such a scenario. Baseball bats are better.
This may not matter as much (or at all) to others, but it is relevant to me when choosing which rifles I make sure I own in case, God forbid, things go south.
So my essential long guns are a .22 rifle, a shotgun, a couple of good .223/5.56 rifles, an accurate and reliable large frame in .308, and a longer range bolt gun with interchangeable 6.5C/.308 barrels. That doesn't mean I don't own other calibers, but these are the ones I use and train with the most. Even within this group, some get more range time than others.
I own an SR-25 APC and love it. To me, it's lighter and "handier" than most other AR-10s, and its reliability and accuracy are exceptional. I almost sold it a few months back. I'm glad I didn't. I use a SB 3-20 US and offset red dot and am happy with that combo.
The likelihood of a SHTF scenario is very small, but potential ammo availability to me is one factor (certainly not the sole factor) when deciding which long guns to buy and use.
Of course, YMMV.
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