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Gitmo cluster fuck
- Thread starter Gunfighter14e2
- Start date
Secret courts with secret rules and secret evidence.
Totally un-American and a danger to the fabric of this country.
Time to simply sack up and do it properly and legally and haul them into normal court & follow proper procedures with an open, honest & fair trial.
Which would also mean admitting evil stuff the government did as well and continues to do & that would be a good thing to clear the deck and start over properly.
Totally un-American and a danger to the fabric of this country.
Time to simply sack up and do it properly and legally and haul them into normal court & follow proper procedures with an open, honest & fair trial.
Which would also mean admitting evil stuff the government did as well and continues to do & that would be a good thing to clear the deck and start over properly.
I'm assuming that every scumbag has the right to privacy in the presence of counsel, even under UCMJ. Let's get back to that first point. If the brig refused to keep its nose out of legal team visits, adequate defense was impossible. I know that a lot of you would like to dispense with formalities and turn his head into a canoe then and there, but having and applying rules that were arrived at by civilized consensus, instead of a perverted, ad hoc grab-ass interpretation of religious law, is what separates us from them and validates our cause. Piette has been in practice for five years, and is honest enough to recognize the depth of both energy and experience necessary to run a solo defense in a capital case. There's a cluster-fuck, for sure, but it's not one to shove over the side. It's indicative of flaws that need fixing.
GITMO is not a prison that holds prisoners from other national Armies they are un uniformed killers and should be shot on the spot, all within the geneva convention.
What I think is effed up is a USMC General Officer going Pizza Box ---- 2X! ----WTF?
This all goes back to engaging in use of force with no strategy. Without a strategy how do you develop tactics?
We had the most righteous reason ever to conduct an all out war with the simplest of strategies and our government failed the country by thinking they could engage in satisfying myriad pet projects under the guise of 9/11.
War is not a game or contest. It must be a last resort, 100 percent involvement brutal effort, only undertaken with the understanding that it must end quickly as over time it will damage us as much as we hope to damage our enemy. Expeditious, no holds barred, brutal, war is the most compassionate and humane use of force.
There may be good individuals in government but truth be told the core of the operation is rotting from within.
PC, a lack of common sense, putting party ahead of country, the elite political class and in some cases out right treason have got us here.
Clarence Thomas was 100 percent right - there is no common bond to unite us as Americans right now. All these little competing interests are acting in an irrational manner and tearing this country apart.
This all goes back to engaging in use of force with no strategy. Without a strategy how do you develop tactics?
We had the most righteous reason ever to conduct an all out war with the simplest of strategies and our government failed the country by thinking they could engage in satisfying myriad pet projects under the guise of 9/11.
War is not a game or contest. It must be a last resort, 100 percent involvement brutal effort, only undertaken with the understanding that it must end quickly as over time it will damage us as much as we hope to damage our enemy. Expeditious, no holds barred, brutal, war is the most compassionate and humane use of force.
There may be good individuals in government but truth be told the core of the operation is rotting from within.
PC, a lack of common sense, putting party ahead of country, the elite political class and in some cases out right treason have got us here.
Clarence Thomas was 100 percent right - there is no common bond to unite us as Americans right now. All these little competing interests are acting in an irrational manner and tearing this country apart.
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The question is are the civilian lawyers security cleared to hear the evidence, evidence which likely includes rendition, unsavory foreign actors, the CIA and who knows what else.
Than you have the Catch 22 of a trial rules likely written when Capital punishment was a real proposition being applied in a time frame when the military has no one in uniform that ever worked a capital crime trial.
So we have a rule that cant be fulfilled unless you bring in some civilian lawyers who cant hear the evidence.
I think the AF judge is correct to waive the rule and if we lived in a country that had common sense we would understand that you cant fulfill the requirement if the people with qualifications to do so don't exist in uniform.
Perhaps the Marine General is also correct in his position that the civilians are not cleared to hear the evidence.
Again we go back to 9/12 and the failure to promulgate proper strategy.
I am not Sec Def but the strategy statement should have been.....
"In response to the attack of 9/11 the United States insists on the Taliban entity in Afghanistan turning over alive or dead Osama Bin Ladin to the government of the United States immediately.
If not done the United states will conduct 100 percent war operations until Osama bin Ladin is captured or killed. If Bin ladin seeks sanctuary in any other country we will pursue him into that territory conducting 100 percent war operations until that territory turns him over to us alive or dead. Our operations will cease immediately upon the capture or confirmed death of Bin Ladin. 100 percent of the United States forces will immediately withdraw from the areas of conflict upon capturing or killing Bin Ladin and we make it known that any retribution or violent response to our actions upon demobilization operations will not be replied to with the use of ground forces but US Naval and Air Force capabilities will rain unrestrained death and destruction upon belligerent territories until the remains of their government request unconditional quarter."
No nation building, no mission creep, no PC. Kill bin Ladin and leave with the warning if there is a next time we carpet bomb the entire country.
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Hey, he is a lawyer. His T/O weapon is his mouth, not a firearm.
It used to be we only had ONE BG Lawyer in the Corps...the HMFIC of all the lawyers....that changed during the first Gulf War when they assigned the Base command of Camp Pendleton to a lawyer BG.
GITMO is the right place for them, the military courts are the right vehicle for it. It was the adding of civilian lawyers that screwed things up because it is a "death penalty" case and we need "learned" counsel that the military couldn't provide.
It just goes to show you we need to hang a few more of those bastards to get the military lawyers more experience.....we can start with Bergdhal.
Every Marine a Rifleman...
Id take a Pizza Box Marine over most others knowing he at least has been trained how to insert a mag and look down the sights.
I wore the Pizza box I earned shooting in a hurricane on PI with pride for 3 months or so before it was replaced with Crossed Rifles in the Fleet.
At MSG school I used a Smith and Wesson Model 19 to compliment it with an Iron Cross.
I justified my lack of ability as thinking the Sharshooter Badge is actually a pretty attractive design in its Maltese Cross coolness and the ladies wouldn't think "Oh that's so cute he has a big shiny rifle thingy and a little copy of it to look pretty".
Agreed this Catch 22 is the result of an intractable ability to default to common sense.
Our Constitution and Legal system was never meant to operate at the level of stupid.
He qualified....if the minimum isn't good enough, why is it called the minimum?
I would rather he shoot expert with his mouth, than his rifle.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=2&v=2JfzMqwltHk
I would rather he shoot expert with his mouth, than his rifle.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=2&v=2JfzMqwltHk
That was my point a basic trained Marine is pretty well trained.
I wonder what the personality conflict seems to be between the AF Colonel and the USMC BG?
It seems a sidebar and discussion of the facts should clear the issue unless factors outside the scope of law are playing a role.
The defense should not be able to endanger intelligence methods to prove innocence nor should a rule intended to be a good faith gesture to ensure fairness to the accused prevent his prosecution if the measure can not be reasonably met.
This is the difference between a military and civilian court.
In civilian court it is assumed you are dealing at the level of the lay person (juror) and no one involved is aware how the linguica is made.
but in a military court it is understood that the people in judgement are particularly knowledgeable about military operations and discipline and somethings can be assumed when left unsaid.
Baker went from Supply to JA. His bio is here. Pardon the .pdf:
https://www.law.upenn.edu/live/files/5860-a-defending-the-rule-of-law
https://www.law.upenn.edu/live/files/5860-a-defending-the-rule-of-law
All over authority....to quote Eric Cartman, the Judge (the AF colonel) is saying, "Respect my authority".
The defense civilian lawyers, who are the "learned counsel" for death penalty cases, objected to being monitored while talking with their clients and refused to participate in the defense if they were monitored, the Marine BG "accepted" their resignation and then refused the Judges order to move forward with the case without replacement "learned counsel".
Arguing over minutia and detailed legal positions, the absolute nirvana for lawyers. It makes no difference if they are civilian or military......lawyers be lawyers.
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Interesting.
Need some time to digest that to fully understand.
Im getting the gist though that things are so effed up because the elected part of our government tried to half step something from both flanks in.
I wouldn't describe it as a circle jerk.....
More like two guys standing across from each other, each stroking the other, but before they start the process they spray Novocain on each others member so that they never get anywhere.
....and whats weird is that they enjoy that more than if they had full sensation.
Not uncommon. Saw lots of Aviators post Vietnam that became JAG lawyers. In the 80's lots of Grunts became lawyers during the draw down. It is common as it is easier to make a lawyer out of a Marine than it is to make a Marine out of a lawyer (or law student)
Most lawyers don't have a CAR, wings, and meritorious citations, semi-deficient marksmanship (by some standards), or not.
I was summarizing, not passing judgment. I leave that to those who have earned the right,
Understand...I was addressing pmclaine's concern.
I spent three years of my 21 years in the Corps as an USMC Officer Selection Officer. Getting a lawyer (or law student) to make it through OCS was extremely difficult. It was much simpler to mint a lawyer out of a Marine.
Wings are a matter of getting a slot in school.
Id like to think all ribbons are come by honestly, especially USMC but than John Forbes Kerry does have three Purple Hearts.
The BG does seem principled though.
I think he is advocating for full blown military jurisdiction and law of war over the detainees rather than having some convoluted half melded system that is open to challenge as being neither internationally acceptable through law of war nor defensible as Constitutionally sound.
The problem with full blown military rules is you legitimize Al Queda as a lawful fighting force.
The problem with a Constitutional system is that you provide Al Queda with all the protections of our Constitution and the unpalatable aspects of that due to them likely bankrupting our govt through the appeals process as well becoming propaganda magnets.
The precedence of the German saboteurs was a bad one.
FDR wanted to make a show of giving the Germans Constitutional protections to show that even during war we follow the rule of civil law.
Odd he did this simultaneous with locking up AMERICAN CITIZENS of Japanese decent.
This worked back than because when a sentence was handed down it was carried out toute suite. Those Germans were dead in quick order and FDR had his propaganda show.
Now a days introducing any civilian law dealing with enemy combatants not in uniform would lead to 16 years awaiting trial and a like time frame engaging in the appeals process.
In that light I agree with the BGs desire for the full military application of justice which in my estimation would mean the unlawful enemy combatant would be planted on the beach next to his rubber boat paddled ashore from his submarine or on his mountain top in the wilds of Afghanistan.
That is a bit over-simplified. About 1/3 of the aviation class fails out and don't get their wings. Boot camp has a much lower attrition rate, extending your analysis is like say all it takes to become a Marine is to get sent to boot camp.
I earned my Wings, just like I earned my EGA and my expert shooting badges.
ribbons by ChorizoUSMC, on FlickrThe BG has silver Silver jump wings, not aviation wings.
A naval aviator has gone through much more than falling out of a hole attached to a string.
I will give military paratroops lots of credit for carrying the burdens they do when they banzai. Too heavy, little control, too much speed, too little time to think and the ground is too hard.
Jump wings with a scuba bubble above them or Gold wings and you are part of ANGLICO or a FAC, that tells a different story.
Regardless his chest puts mine to shame. My only point was sometimes the fruit salad doesn't tell the whole story.
There are lots of jump school wings earned, Spencer Repone as an example . Passing that school is quite an accomplishment but it doesn't mean you inserting behind enemy lines.
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Id say yes the lawyer that can go Marine is a rare bird. If you find one I bet they are outstanding. I profile a marathoner, does Ironmans for fun, 6'3" no BMI issues.
Where as asking a Marine "Hey how would you like the challenge of becoming a lawyer?" He would be likely to question "That's a challenge?" and try to grad early.
Likely there are more patriotic lawyers that want to do it but making it through the physical/mental aspects of Quantico is not optional. Willing minds - incapapable bodies.
My only point to even mildly critique Veers response was to point out though the rack should be a resume taken at face value reality is not always so. In this case I think the BG is principled and went where his interests took him in an effort to do what he thought was good service.
Flame away at me but when I see Petraeus shoulder to belt line rack I let my feelings about him cloud what that display is telling me and I think that being less a measure of Petraeus service it tells me more about Petraeus soul and what he is about.
I contrast Petraeus with Col. Edson, USMC.
In WWII he accompanied Gen AA Vandegrift to Australia when Mitchell Paige and John Basilone received their Medals of Honor.
A reporter wanted to get a picture of all 4 Guadalcanal MOH recipients together.
Edson had an unadorned jacket. He had to borrow the MOH ribbon from Michell Paiges medal box in order to complete the picture. He promptly returned the ribbon to Mitchell Paige.
Edson = LEADER.
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I used to make the same point about the Iron Cross. Within the Corps we know what the crossed rifles signify, but the cross is the only of the marksmanship badges to have the EGA on it. I felt that the cross with EGA should've been used to designate the highest level of marksmanship, or at the very least work an EGA into the crossed rifles.
