Rifle Scopes Glass Comparison S&B vs Kahles vs NF

[Jethatsme]

I currently have a S&B PMll 5-25x that I got from a trade. The scope is MOA which I am not a big fan of. As such looking to trade or sell for either the Kahles 6-24 Nightforce ATACR or another S&B in Mil

My question to the forum is regarding glass quality. Has anyone looked through each of these scopes side by side and compared the glass clarity, brightness and resolution. If so, how would rank them in order.

 

[cageli]

Extremely subjective, but here is mine:

All are fantastic scopes with superb glass. They all have a different flavor though.
SB: The one shows reality, not as bright as other two, there is some gray to the color at low light, but has 0 CA which some folks really dig.
ATACR: The one shows good resolution at long range, but color is plain and depth of view is not as good as other two.
Kahles: The one shows brightness and color, however, CA is viewable and resolution is not as good as ATACR, but have good depth of view.

So my vote of brightness goes to Kahles, resolution goes to ATACR and clarity goes to SB.
Or, try to get a TT or Minox, I heard those are the one with perfect glass, but I have not looked through one.

 

[Glassaholic]

Not sure if it matters much to you Jet but consider this, the Kahles has 20.4' FOV at 6x while the Nightforce only has 18.7' at 5x, that means that even though the Kahles has a 4x erector vs. the Nightforce 5x erector, you actually can't see as much through the scope with the Nightforce at 5x as you can with the Kahles at 6x. The 24x vs 25x is negligible so in reality the Kahles scope beats out the Nightforce even though it is handicapped by the 4x magnification range. I'm not saying the Nightforce is bad, I'm sure it's a great scope but magnification is not always what it appears to be so don't let that be the single deciding factor in your choice.

 

[hk dave]

From my own personal comparisons... you wont see much of a difference between the S&B 5-25 and NF 5-25 F1. The color balance was slightly different, but in terms of resolution, it's really close with a small edge to S&B. My NF handled CA slightly better than the S&B... which I didn't realize until I compared them as the S&B has none that I noticed prior.

I did have a Kahles Gen2 6-24 that I compared to these and while it did have a lot of resolution, it did not handle CA well... but I have second wjms words in that the FOV was amazing, and the eye box was extremely easy to get behind. It was also the brightest of the bunch. I hear the Gen3 versions handle CA better.

 

[digrazir]

When you get to the high end glass they are all pretty close..that said I will have two S&B 5-25x56 scopes as of this Wednesday when my second one arrives from Eurooptics. .Ray

 

[CSTactical]

For us and many customers we feel that the Kahles K624i has a slight overall edge in glass to the Nightforce ATACR 5-25's. We've had some other customers recently tell us that the 7-35 glass is equal to S&B and we'd like to make a comparison in the future on the range.

 

[Jethatsme]

Extremely subjective, but here is mine:

All are fantastic scopes with superb glass. They all have a different flavor though.
SB: The one shows reality, not as bright as other two, there is some gray to the color at low light, but has 0 CA which some folks really dig.
ATACR: The one shows good resolution at long range, but color is plain and depth of view is not as good as other two.
Kahles: The one shows brightness and color, however, CA is viewable and resolution is not as good as ATACR, but have good depth of view.

So my vote of brightness goes to Kahles, resolution goes to ATACR and clarity goes to SB.
Or, try to get a TT or Minox, I heard those are the one with perfect glass, but I have not looked through one.

Thank for the reply. Great input. I am responding to this as well as the other comments. To your point on the gray color in Low Light, I certainly agree. I find that it goes away once you pull magnification back a bit to around 15x-18x. Aside from the glass and after looking at youtube videos of the other scopes, it seems as if the Kahles 6-24 offers the best overall configuration of glass, reticle options, and turret design. I am a big fan of the Horus 'like' reticles. Love the EBR2 from Vortex and feel the Kahles skmr3 reticle is excellent.

Curious to hear from anyone that has reviewed the Minox of TT now that you mention it. I have seen them on the forum for sale but am really unfamiliar with the brands.

 

[Mute]

Entirely subjective. Truth is that I've used most of these scopes and have owned a few and at this level, none of them would be head and shoulder above the rest, not even the Minox and TT. If you're unable to see the target well enough to place a shot with one, chances are it will be the same with the other scopes. Do my eyes prefer how things look through one or another? Yes, but not enough that I'd place optical quality all that high on my list of priorities with a scope in this price and performance range.

 

[tlg308]

Now that I've used my Schmidt for a while now, I have to say clarity is pretty ridiculous. I looked at all 3 of these scopes before purchasing my Schmidt. For me it came down to how the features of the scope were set up and how the turrets felt. I found that all 3 scopes had really good glass to the point where glass wasn't even the determining factor anymore. Any difference in glass quality has to be so finely looked at that I don't think it puts any scope in this price range at a advantage/disadvantage from one another.

 

[hk dave]

For us and many customers we feel that the Kahles K624i has a slight overall edge in glass to the Nightforce ATACR 5-25's. We've had some other customers recently tell us that the 7-35 glass is equal to S&B and we'd like to make a comparison in the future on the range.

I've compared the NF 7-35 to the S&B 5-25 and I agree that they are too close to see a difference. The only difference i found was in color balance. Outside of that, they resolved the same and I give CA control to the NF.

 

[Opticsspecialist]

I find these scopes are all superb as far as optical quality. There are differences that effect personal preference that were talked about in this forum. I would also look at the features the scope has to offer. Kahles has a center mount parallax adjustment that is great for left hand shooters and the option for a left side windage that is pretty inovative for right hand shooters. Nightforce has 120 MOA of total elevation in the 5-25 which is great for really stretching our to distance. Schmidt has the MTC turrets for guys who need that feature for low light. Just to list a few. Hope this helps in your search for your perfect scope.

 

[21Bravo]

I've owned and used a S&B PMII 5-25 P4F for several years. I've used this scope in quite a few comps and it's been my primary optic. I've been behind a lot of NF optics and I currently own a Kahles 624i with SKMR3. To my eye the Kahles doesn't provide the detail or sharpness the S&B does when observing your shots at 600 yards and out. I often will try and pick up where I impact on a plate at, say 650, to determine if I need to adjust my windage on the next plate further out. I can do this with the Kahles but it comes much easier to me with the S&B. The S&B just seems to provide a little more crisp image. Now, I may very well be biased based on having a lot more time behind the S&B. However, I do own a Kahles and I think it's a great optic.

 

[Glassaholic]

Curious to hear from anyone that has reviewed the Minox of TT now that you mention it. I have seen them on the forum for sale but am really unfamiliar with the brands.

Not all Minox's are created equal, it is the ZP5 series that is their "high end" and engineered by the old Optronika group, the Premier, Minox ZP5 and Tangent Theta all share the same heritage and exhibit glass quality beyond the rest, that being said I would agree with Alex (Mute) above in that any of these high end optics will get the job done and we can get so caught up in one specific quality or another that causes us to lose sight of what really matters. For example, while the Kahles may exhibit more CA than the other scopes mentioned, it has superb resolution and a great eye box with fantastic reticles, you will not be at a disadvantage in getting rounds on targets simply because it has more CA than another scope, you'd be better off looking at FOV or reticle design etc and putting more weight on those features. I'd also mention mechanical repeatability and reliability and so far all these scopes have exhibited excellent results for many shooters.

I did a review of a number of these scopes last month, you can check it out here - http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...t-low-light-tactical-scope-evaluation-part-ii

 

[Mile High Shooting]

All the above posts are spot on. Any of the three scopes in the OP's original post will not make you lose in a comp. Will they make you win? Nope, that's your job. It boils down to what features you're looking for in a quality scope. All three are absolutely fantastic in design and execution. All have a slightly different way of producing outstanding results. All three have reliable turrets, glass second to none, and will last through conditions that you'll wish you were inside instead of fighting the elements.

All three have different reticles, slightly different controls, and it really boils down to what reticle, what controls, and what pleases your eye the best, optically and aesthetically. It comes down to a personal preference. In a perfect world, get behind all three and take a look. Or just stop by if your in the area, we can put you behind all 3. Or all 4 if you want to throw Vortex in the fray.....

 

[dirthead1]

I have a Gen 3 624i, a NF Atacr, a NF NXS, and have had a S&B PM2 5-25. Honestly, they all have excellent glass. The glass should not be the deciding factor between those scopes. There are differences in the turrets and reticles. Those differences mostly come down to personal preference. I personally like the reticle (SKMR) and turrets on the Kahles the best, NF second, and S&B third. The SKMR reticle takes the cake for me. I LOVE the floating dot in the center and .2 mil windage holds. I also love the turrets on the Kahles. My eyes aren't good enough to tell the difference in the glass, and even if it was, who cares? I'm not taking pictures, I'm shooting. What difference does it make if one has slightly more CA, or the color is better from one to another. That's not going to make me miss a target. I guess if that is what's most important to you then you need to look through all 3 and make your choice based on what your eye sees. You can't make a wrong decision with those scopes. Pick the one with the features you like best and go.

 

[lash]

All the above posts are spot on. Any of the three scopes in the OP's original post will not make you lose in a comp. Will they make you win? Nope, that's your job. It boils down to what features you're looking for in a quality scope. All three are absolutely fantastic in design and execution. All have a slightly different way of producing outstanding results. All three have reliable turrets, glass second to none, and will last through conditions that you'll wish you were inside instead of fighting the elements.

All three have different reticles, slightly different controls, and it really boils down to what reticle, what controls, and what pleases your eye the best, optically and aesthetically. It comes down to a personal preference. In a perfect world, get behind all three and take a look. Or just stop by if your in the area, we can put you behind all 3. Or all 4 if you want to throw Vortex in the fray.....

I own an S&B PMII and love it. Have been behind the others and love them too.

What I would really love and will do sometime, is to actually get to MHS and take you up on your offer, but it's a long trip from Florida by john boat...

 

[Steel+Killer]

Entirely subjective. Truth is that I've used most of these scopes and have owned a few and at this level, none of them would be head and shoulder above the rest, not even the Minox and TT. If you're unable to see the target well enough to place a shot with one, chances are it will be the same with the other scopes. Do my eyes prefer how things look through one or another? Yes, but not enough that I'd place optical quality all that high on my list of priorities with a scope in this price and performance range.

This maybe the best response I have ever seen on this type of question. I agree at this level your just splitting hairs!

 

[hk dave]

Entirely subjective. Truth is that I've used most of these scopes and have owned a few and at this level, none of them would be head and shoulder above the rest, not even the Minox and TT. If you're unable to see the target well enough to place a shot with one, chances are it will be the same with the other scopes. Do my eyes prefer how things look through one or another? Yes, but not enough that I'd place optical quality all that high on my list of priorities with a scope in this price and performance range.

This

 

[Jethatsme]

Thanks everyone for the excellent feedback. I agree that the quality of the glass does not make the shooter. That being said, my question really comes from a "pride of ownership" standpoint in wanting to own the best glass on the market. My first premium optic was the Vortex Razor Gen ll 3-18x which I still own and love. It was really my first realization that optics above $1500 were certianly in a different league. Then my S&B came in which boosted by frame of reference for glass quality even a notch higher. Where I am from in an Urban city, long distance shooting isnt common place so unfortunately I don't get the opportunity to sit behind variations of quality glass in one outing. I am appreciative for the forum to fill the gap in that regard. Love the Kahles overall with their ret, turrets and glass. The user who commented on the floating dot in the ret is spot on. It has the perfect blend of design in ky opinion. Was looking at a hensodt a while back but none of the reticles were really for me.

@milehigh I intend to make the trip up to you guys in he next few month. I take shooting trips a few times per year.

Thanks everyone for their feedback.

Btw: What does "CA" refer. I'm sure its obvious but cant seem to figure it out.

 

[WeiserBucks]

CA , color aberration. The way I understand it, different lense coatings produce different color images. Some coatings produce true colors, while some produce certain colors better than others . I'm no expert, someone correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[hk dave]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chromatic_aberration

 

[flatland1]

The 1st scope I bought that cost over $1k was a Bushnell 3.5-21x50 ERS, and I was impressed with the step up in quality & features it represented over the Sightron SIIIs & Vortex Viper PSTs I'd been shooting. My original intent was to purchase two or three scopes the next step up from the Bushy and see which I liked the best - but the next scope purchase I made was a Kahles K624i AMR. After comparing it to friends' Leupold Mk 8, S&B PMII, NF BEAST, Vortex Gen II Razor, and Premier scopes, I decided there wasn't enough difference in optical quality to over-ride my appreciation of the Kahles' turrets, parallax ring location, reticle, and large eyebox. I've seen some slight purple fringing/CA through all the Gen II Kahles scopes I've owned, but do feel that you really have to look for it in the Gen III scopes, and even though it's a slight bit of imperfection, it's never bothered me while shooting. In fact, I don't ever recall even noticing it while shooting, only when looking for it after reading about it in a post here a couple of years ago.

 

[Tomokochan]

I have the S+B, the 7-35 ATACR, Razor II's and the Khales 624i and in terms of pure glass (to my eye) the S+B retains the slightest edge over the ATACR and Khales who are tied followed by the slightest of margins the Razor but, quite truly, all are excellent and so little separates them in the glass dept that I think buying choices are better made on reticles and turret functions etc. You may want to look at the review I posted here when I compared the NF to the others.

 

[CanonSterVA]

Just started a search on the two manufacturers listed in this thread.
Very informative and detailed.
Thank you all.
Myron