Rifle Scopes Glass... Glass.. Glass. I keep reading good glass is everything. Vortex Viper glass opinions?

Venomgland

Venomgland

Banhammer
Banned !
Minuteman
Mar 7, 2019
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18
#1
It sounds like a super durable scope. Jut watched a guy throw one out of a car doing 44MPH and it still shot perfectly! That is pretty awesome! Not that I would ever do that.

I see a lot of recommendations for the Vortex series. I can't affored the Razors but the Vipers are very affordable. I also see they are carried at big box stores too. Usually that means quality is sacrificed to make up for cheaper prices. I'm learning that on the big gun safes..

I assume they aren't top of the line glass, but can I go wrong with a Gen II?
 
#4
I ran a Viper PST 4-16x50 and 6-24x50 for a long time. The 4-16x50 went back for service twice, each time for a canted reticle. It was always fixed and returned in 7 days time. The 2nd time they just gave me a brand new scope. Both tracked perfectly and have never held me back. That being said, I have switched to Bushnell and giving them a go, but still have my 4-16 on my 223. A friend of mine has the 5-25 and I really liked it. Seemed a lot more crisp than my 6-24x50 at the same magnification and I liked the reticle more than the standard 1C.
 
#6
I've own(ed) several Vortex along with currently owned Burris, NF, Leupold, Sig and couple others.

The Vortex Viper PST is pretty good (Gen 2 is apparently much better than Gen 1); I had a Gen 1 4-16 and 6-24 but sold both and went to XTR2.

The XTR2 is (IMO over side by side use) a better scope: tracks perfect after 1000's of rounds and swaps between rifles, glass is okay to good (better than PST Gen 1 on max mag), easy eye box, and zero stop is ROCK SOLID.

You can find XTRs for 600-900 depending on where you look and to me, represent a better value than Vortex. I can't speak to Gen 2 PSTs other than looking through them at a few stores and they did seem quite clear but I put an emphasis on perfect tracking, no tunneling at max mag and ease of centering eye box. The Burris seems to consistently do those things better.

PSTs are good scopes to be sure and I'm sure it would be a great place to jump into a nicer entry level scope. The challenge is companies like Athalon, Burris, Sig, NF and more are creating scopes in similar price ranges with better performance in certain categories.

Get to a range or a store that will let you see them outside on a scope mount side by side. You'll pick the right one.
 
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#7
The PST II 3-15x44 has phenomenal glass, I also have a PST II 5-25x50 and it's a great scope for its price. The newer XTR II 4-20x50 are really nice; however, the XTR II 3-15 has been documented to not be the best optically. The Bushnell LRHS/LRTS line has excellent glass but unless you find a deal the price point is usually a little higher. The Tract Toric 4-20x50 is another great option with superb glass for the price but is a little on the heavy side and not many reticle options. The scopes that we have today in the $1k price range are really outstanding when compared to what was available in this price 5 or so years ago.

OP, you're already aware of this, but there is better glass available; however, it comes at a cost and you'll be paying 2x or more to get better glass.
 
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#8
I get the LE/Mil discount (which is significant) and find it hard to beat the PST Gen2 line for the $ They track, have some nice features and glass is very good. Not a Razor or other high end scope by any stretch, but good enough. I sold 2 Razors and got 3 Gen2s. I shoot to 1900+ without issue. Their customer service is tops. They helped me track a lost scope (one I sent/sold) in the mail and return it to its rightful owner too (and serviced it before shipping), how crazy is that. I have only had to send one scope back for service that was not tracking right, it was Gen 1 model. I have had roughly 15-20 Vortex scopes/spotters. Vortex is hard to beat. (IMHO)
 
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#9
wjm308 said:
The PST II 3-15x44 has phenomenal glass, I also have a PST II 5-25x50 and it's a great scope for its price. The newer XTR II 4-20x50 are really nice; however, the XTR II 3-15 has been documented to not be the best optically. The Bushnell LRHS/LRTS line has excellent glass but unless you find a deal the price point is usually a little higher. The Tract Toric 4-20x50 is another great option with superb glass for the price but is a little on the heavy side and not many reticle options. The scopes that we have today in the $1k price range are really outstanding when compared to what was available in this price 5 or so years ago.

OP, you're already aware of this, but there is better glass available; however, it comes at a cost and you'll be paying 2x or more to get better glass.
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Great information. I am aware that there probably is much better glass out there, but Im on a budget. Its my first long distance rifle and while I understand that a good scope is very important. I just want to stay around the $1000 (+/- $200) dollar range for now.

When I get home from work. I'll be looking into some of the scopes you mentioned. Thanks
 
#10
Gwain said:
I get the LE/Mil discount (which is significant) and find it hard to beat the PST Gen2 line for the $ They track, have some nice features and glass is very good. Not a Razor or other high end scope by any stretch, but good enough. I sold 2 Razors and got 3 Gen2s. I shoot to 1900+ without issue. Their customer service is tops. They helped me track a lost scope (one I sent/sold) in the mail and return it to its rightful owner too (and serviced it before shipping), how crazy is that. I have only had to send one scope back for service that was not tracking right, it was Gen 1 model. I have had roughly 15-20 Vortex scopes/spotters. Vortex is hard to beat. (IMHO)
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That is very cool!
 
#11
who cares about the glass, worry about the mechanicals!!!. I will take an $80 bushnell glass if the mechanicals work well. vortex is a joke, I know the warranty is awesome but, how about not needing it. No one talks about nightforce warranty because no one ever needs it. I tested 2 PST's II's off the shelf and both had canted reticles. this could only be seen mounting the scope in a scope fixture I made and running the scopes on a tall target at exactly 100 yards. most people will not know their vortex isn't working as it should if its not made in japan, AKA razor or in US aka AMG, its junk pure and simple its a junk product.
 
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#12
Venomgland said:
Great information. I am aware that there probably is much better glass out there, but Im on a budget. Its my first long distance rifle and while I understand that a good scope is very important. I just want to stay around the $1000 (+/- $200) dollar range for now.

When I get home from work. I'll be looking into some of the scopes you mentioned. Thanks
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You will not find any of these scopes that are in the $1000 range to be wanting in the glass department. They will do anything that you are going to need for quite some time. Sure, there are better scopes out there for 2-3 times as many $$$ and their glass will be better, but you are not going to miss a target because you “only” spent $1000 on it.

Chasing better glass is a very expensive rabbit hole to go down and not necessary for 90% of the shooters on here.
 
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#13
cummins cowboy said:
who cares about the glass, worry about the mechanicals!!!. I will take an $80 bushnell glass if the mechanicals work well. vortex is a joke, I know the warranty is awesome but, how about not needing it. No one talks about nightforce warranty because no one ever needs it. I tested 2 PST's II's off the shelf and both had canted reticles. this could only be seen mounting the scope in a scope fixture I made and running the scopes on a tall target at exactly 100 yards. most people will not know their vortex isn't working as it should if its not made in japan, AKA razor or in US aka AMG, its junk pure and simple its a junk product.
Click to expand...

Wow! Troll much?
 
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#14
For the money, I feel Athlon gives you better quality at a better price. I would check out the Athlon Midas TAC or Ares BTR before you get a Vortex. Hell, the Ares BTR is on special right now at most dealers for I believe the same price as the Midas TAC. In my opinion it’s a better scope than the vortex gen II.

Good luck in your search.
 
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#15
Poorboyr said:
For the money, I feel Athlon gives you better quality at a better price. I would check out the Athlon Midas TAC or Ares BTR before you get a Vortex. Hell, the Ares BTR is on special right now at most dealers for I believe the same price as the Midas TAC. In my opinion it’s a better scope than the vortex gen II.

Good luck in your search.
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Thanks, I will take a look at them.
 
#19
cummins cowboy said:
who cares about the glass, worry about the mechanicals!!!. I will take an $80 bushnell glass if the mechanicals work well. vortex is a joke, I know the warranty is awesome but, how about not needing it. No one talks about nightforce warranty because no one ever needs it. I tested 2 PST's II's off the shelf and both had canted reticles. this could only be seen mounting the scope in a scope fixture I made and running the scopes on a tall target at exactly 100 yards. most people will not know their vortex isn't working as it should if its not made in japan, AKA razor or in US aka AMG, its junk pure and simple its a junk product.
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Tagging in for shit show

7039255
 
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#23
I have a first gen PST. It's a great scope in terms of durability and repeatability. It does however lose some of it's clarity on max magnification. My Nightforce and Leupold Mark4 scopes have the edge in terms of clarity. Never looked through the gen2 PST's so they may very well have better glass than the first gen. Personally, I'd look at a VX3i.
 
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#25
I've got a Gen 1 PST that's been abused pretty well and is still going strong. Not a huge fan of the EBR-1 reticle and the illumination is bullshit, but it tracks well which is the main thing I care about.

I'm actually kinda curious about their Diamondback FFPs in the $350 range. Those must be steaming piles of shit, but people say they work.
 
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#26
years ago (early 2000's) i was not in the "better glass camp"

went to Virginia for a class, had a MK4 lup on my rifle.

worked as expected to 1100 or so (i forget the range) but 1000+..we were shooting 308's back then imagine the horror

next day it got sunny and the wind died down

with my rig the 600 yard target was vanishing from time to time in my scope

i was like what the fuck, are my eyes getting tired

instructor said try this rifle, he always brought a school gun in case something went down

he had a NF on it

i got behind his rifle and the target magically reappeared nice and sharp

at the time i thought $1200 for a MK4 was more than enough for a scope how could you spend $2500 on a SB or $2K on a NF, are they that much better

thats when i became a glass whore
 
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#28
1J04 said:
The Midway Special a while ago, Simmons Whitetail Classic 6.5-20x50 with the AO, for $90 bucks will keep up with any $1200 dollar scope out there with zero distortion and razor sharp edge to edge clarity. For my money it's my go to for my big rig.
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That’s a big 10 four there billy big rigger, cum’on good buddy....
 
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#29
If you have $1,000 to $2,000 to spend on a scope you can get a Vortex Razor Gen 2 from most vendors here on the hide. I had two PST Gen 2 scopes that were great but no comparison to the Razors. Used Razors are selling in the PX for about $1600.00. Go to the Rifle Shooters Blog and see how many of the top shooters used the Vortex Razor compared to the other scopes mentioned here.
 
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#30
DannC said:
If you have $1,000 to $2,000 to spend on a scope you can get a Vortex Razor Gen 2 from most vendors here on the hide. I had two PST Gen 2 scopes that were great but no comparison to the Razors. Used Razors are selling in the PX for about $1600.00. Go to the Rifle Shooters Blog and see how many of the top shooters used the Vortex Razor compared to the other scopes mentioned here.
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I would highly suggest no one use the “what the pros use” as a guide to buying.

If one did, everyone should go buy a dasher, an mpa chassis, diamond trigger, and an NF 7-35.

Those guys are fighting for any edge they can get in one another. Doesn’t pertain to most shooters.
 
#31
I'm telling you you're missing out on some incredible glass. I picked up 10 of these and have one left LNIB. I could be persuaded to part with it for the right deal FYI.

Butler Creek Caps not included of course. They're like trying to find Unicorns.

7039305
7039307
7039310
7039312
7039315
 
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#32
My fear is that mid level scopes say $1000-$1500 are going to sacrifice mechanicals for HD glass now that it's what all the consumers seem to care about. I've yet to use a $1000 scope I could not make hits with because of the glass, but I've had plenty that were not mechanically sound. I'm sure the manufacturers know that 95% of the people buying these are never going to tall test them. Now that you can get a 3x18 Razor Gen 2 for under $1500 and a 4.7-27 for under $1800 the game has changed.

It's like about 15 years ago when everyone decided the only thing that mattered on a 1911 for quality was how tight the slide was to the frame. Which has zero to do with accuracy, and almost always reduced reliability. Companies very quickly built what the foolish consumer wanted though, tight slides and lots of issues in low/mid level product followed.
 
#33
1J04 said:
I'm telling you you're missing out on some incredible glass. I picked up 10 of these and have one left LNIB. I could be persuaded to part with it for the right deal FYI.

Butler Creek Caps not included of course. They're like trying to find Unicorns.

View attachment 7039305View attachment 7039307View attachment 7039310View attachment 7039312View attachment 7039315
Click to expand...

A fantastic specimen. If anyone is wanting a side parallax version, I've got one of those. I might be tempted to part with it. These things are tough as nails. I know, cuz I routinely use mine as a hammer.

With parallax adjustments all the way down to 10Y, this scope is truly a versatile piece of kit.

7039341
 
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#34
QuickNDirty said:
A fantastic specimen. If anyone is wanting a side parallax version, I've got one of those. I might be tempted to part with it. These things are tough as nails. I know, cuz I routinely use mine as a hammer.

With parallax adjustments all the way down to 10Y, this scope is truly a versatile piece of kit.

View attachment 7039341
Click to expand...


Whoa!!! That side parallax is the bomb!!! No Butler Creeks make it a deal breaker though. On a side note, don't you like how that massive objective looks with that 1" tube?
 
#35
The Primary Arms Platinum line is a LOW product at $1500. Some here don't like their reticles. I do and have the DEKA on my 6.5CM. There's also some other brands out there getting LOW products and selling around, and sometimes much lower if you can find the deals and reticles, the same amount.

The Athlon Chronus is a LOW product that can be found around that price too. Many people here are using Athlon products and seem very happy. I have a cheaper Chinese Ares BTR that has great glass and a decent reticle.

I haven't done any tracking tests with either product but both have, so far, performed to my expectations. I don't have enough time behind the Athlon to give it the go ahead just yet but the Primary Arms I can.
 
#41
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#42
Glass is like any other component in a rifle. It can be changed and upgraded if you want.. there is a whole accessory market.

Most scopes can be fitted with upgraded glass for a lot less than you think. Even inexpensive scopes benefit from better, clearer and sharper glass, which can be custom ground for about as much as a pair of glasses — less since the blanks are smaller.

These “second generation” or 2G glass upgrade places are in places like Corning, Zurich and Jena and are often spin outs of the original bulk optical- grade glass vendors. But generally have higher QC and a wider range of grades/ coatings.

They will uprate the glass in your scope for a surprisingly reasonable price. For a guide to vendors and services, check:

Www.numbertwoguide.com

Enjoy.

Cheers, sirhr
 
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#47
OP, on a serious note, skip Vortex under the Razor line. Please. Honestly, you can get a Razor Gen 1 for BARELY more than a PST GenII. You can grab Razor GenII used on the EE for $1600-$1800. That’s a great scope by any measure, sans weight. It is heavy.
So many folks know about Vortex’s warranty.....guess why? It gets used.....ALOT. I started out with PST’s, as many of us did. I had 2 one on my SPR, and a 4-16 on a .308 bolt gun. The 4-16 had to go back.....shocker! So I personally had a 50% failure rate.
Folks were quick to jump on dude a few posts up who mentioned NF and the warranty, BUT....you don’t really see/hear of NF going down. YET.....I had it happen.
The point is this: ANYTHING can go down. They are tools, made by people shit happens. The difference is in how often, and how it’s handled. My NF was a control arm on the parallax that broke. Tech said he had NEVER seen it before. I’ve never even heard of it happening. Probably an anomaly. But, it was fixed in ONE DAY and enrt back to me.

Just do yourself a solid: stay at Razor level, or go another brand. Even NF SHV are VERY SOLID.
 
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#48
VegasHKShooter said:
OP, on a serious note, skip Vortex under the Razor line. Please. Honestly, you can get a Razor Gen 1 for BARELY more than a PST GenII. You can grab Razor GenII used on the EE for $1600-$1800. That’s a great scope by any measure, sans weight. It is heavy.
So many folks know about Vortex’s warranty.....guess why? It gets used.....ALOT. I started out with PST’s, as many of us did. I had 2 one on my SPR, and a 4-16 on a .308 bolt gun. The 4-16 had to go back.....shocker! So I personally had a 50% failure rate.
Folks were quick to jump on dude a few posts up who mentioned NF and the warranty, BUT....you don’t really see/hear of NF going down. YET.....I had it happen.
The point is this: ANYTHING can go down. They are tools, made by people shit happens. The difference is in how often, and how it’s handled. My NF was a control arm on the parallax that broke. Tech said he had NEVER seen it before. I’ve never even heard of it happening. Probably an anomaly. But, it was fixed in ONE DAY and enrt back to me.

Just do yourself a solid: stay at Razor level, or go another brand. Even NF SHV are VERY SOLID.
Click to expand...
Gen 1 razor glass much Better than gen 2 viper?
 
#49
VegasHKShooter said:
OP, on a serious note, skip Vortex under the Razor line. Please. Honestly, you can get a Razor Gen 1 for BARELY more than a PST GenII. You can grab Razor GenII used on the EE for $1600-$1800. That’s a great scope by any measure, sans weight. It is heavy.
So many folks know about Vortex’s warranty.....guess why? It gets used.....ALOT. I started out with PST’s, as many of us did. I had 2 one on my SPR, and a 4-16 on a .308 bolt gun. The 4-16 had to go back.....shocker! So I personally had a 50% failure rate.
Folks were quick to jump on dude a few posts up who mentioned NF and the warranty, BUT....you don’t really see/hear of NF going down. YET.....I had it happen.
The point is this: ANYTHING can go down. They are tools, made by people shit happens. The difference is in how often, and how it’s handled. My NF was a control arm on the parallax that broke. Tech said he had NEVER seen it before. I’ve never even heard of it happening. Probably an anomaly. But, it was fixed in ONE DAY and enrt back to me.

Just do yourself a solid: stay at Razor level, or go another brand. Even NF SHV are VERY SOLID.
Click to expand...

Keep in mind manufacturers always say “I’ve never seen X happen.” Otherwise itnwould imply a problem.

Last week I communicated with a major manufacturer (not gonna put it out because they are being very good overall) about an issue with a product.

I was told they haven’t had any issues. What they didn’t know is four other guys I know had the same issue and dealt with the same tech at this company.

I have personally had more NF go down than vortex. But I am a sample size of one person.

Unless companies publicize their return percentages, we will only be speculating on what brands are serviced more often.
 
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