Rifle Scopes Glass Talk - Feeling An Itch for HIGH END Glass

[MuleyTime]

Curious to see what others have to say about this….

I am feeling the itch to purchase a high end scope. Depending on the side of the bed I wake up on, determines what I want. Today, the leader is the Khales 6-24i MSR CCW. Tomorrow may be the Steiner, or Premier, or S&B….It's not the manufacturer that is in question here, it's whether or not buyer's remorse will set in once I get one.

Here's some background:
I have never owned anything higher end than a NightForce NXS. I have owned two of them. However, I also have a lot of time behind a Sightron SIII (LRMOA) as well. My dilemma is that I have felt that Sightron gives up nothing to the NightForce as far as glass and tracking goes. Trust me….I get to go back and forth every time I'm on the range. I almost want the NXS to over take the Sightron, but it never does, at least in glass and tracking. I know the NightForce turrets are better and offers a zero stop (Sightron does not offer a zero stop) and someone could put a bullet through the NightForce and it would still work fine and all that. B U T…..the NXS is double the cost of an SIII. So, after each purchase of an NXS, I have in short time sold them to purchase another 1 or 2 Sightrons. For those Naysayer's…don't knock the Sightron until you try one. They have great glass and good turrets and track extremely well.

So I post this thread to see if others will persuade me, based on their personal experience, to stay content at the Sightron level or go very high end.

 

[KillShot]

Stick with NightForce and get an ATACR. If you require FFP then order a BEAST and wait in line for it to arrive.

 

[VJJPunisher]

in my world nightforce IS high end, so im cornfused

 

[K_4c]

I've owned NF, Steiner and PH.... all will serve the end user well. I personally prefer the PH and Stiener (both 5-25) over my NF's due to the higher mag range/FFP/reticle choice/quality of glass/other small features....

However, it's all subjective. Ask yourself how bad do you want it....

 

[Crosshair]

The Kahles, S&B, Premier, Steiner etc. will all be a noticeable, albeit expensive improvement in glass. There is the reality of diminishing returns, and scopes like Sightron SIII are a prime example of excellent performance without dropping over $2k. Buyers remorse is always relative; a lot of guys take solace in the fact they bought the best available. Other guys need to feel they got the best bang for the buck. If you are a guy with a keen eye for sweet glass and will actually use it at range, I doubt you'd regret buying alpha glass (if you can afford it without negatively impacting your life). It'd be nice to test drive them first against your Sightrons and Nxs's.

 

[Mike]

Stick with the Kahles. It's a fantastic scope and you're not giving away a thing to any of the others. There are certain features I like better than the others such as the parallax adjustment but that's just a personal preference thing. I've got no experience with the Steiner and plenty with S&B's and my #1 pick right now would be the Kahles. If Hensoldt had decent reps/reticles here I would throw their name in the mix but alas, because of those issues they're not worth it now.

NF is a great scope with an incredible track record, there is no doubt about that but to compare the optical quality to the higher end scopes would be erroneous.

 

[918v]

With high end glass you can get rid of your spotting scope. With some high end scopes like Zeiss, glassing is a pleasure in itself. You feel like a million bucks looking through that scope.

 

[MoBoost]

I am in the same boat; sold more expensive scopes and settled on Sightron SIII for benchrest and F-Class ... the only scope that I felt like "must have" is March.
I would really like to see where this thread goes.

 

[wvlapua]

Kahles has the best msr reticle hands down imo..that alone made the choice for me.. The scope is just a pleasure to get behind. Turret feel is great and the zero stop is mindless to set. Premier are just too darn big and to many issues. S&B has the tunneling issue, but a touch better glass. You won't be disappointed with the msr-k.

 

[Thumper580]

After many, many years of shooting I finally treated myself and took the plunge and bought a Zeiss Victory Daivari FL T. Like another poster mentioned it's a pleasure just to look through the darn thing. It looks like you put new batteries in your eyes as everything is brighter and clearer. It will ruin you, but a joy to look through.

 

[Nate O.]

Premier are just too darn big and to many issues.

I am truly curious, what kind of issues are you thinking?

 

[Shortcut]

Hensoldt or March would be my choice. They've got the whole package.

Kahles is a great scope but I found quite a lot of flaws with them. If you buy a Kahles, try to have a good look at it before purchasing it. Look for the following flaws:
-loose magnification ring (check it carefully as it's not allways very clear to discover in the beginning!).
-go to a dark room and turn the illumination on the higher intesities. Look for eventual scratches on the reticle plate (often visible by the fact that you see red lines/scratches on different areas of the reticle) as well as ghost rings or spheres. Make sure that the illumination does not polute the rest of the reticle!
-check carefully through the entire magnification range to make sure there is no dirt inside the tube.

 

[wvlapua]

I am truly curious, what kind of issues are you thinking?

There have been reports of turrets stripping out. Reticle not responding to turret adjustment due to scope ring location. And the unknown future of the company.

 

[steve123]

There have been reports of turrets stripping out. Reticle not responding to turret adjustment due to scope ring location. And the unknown future of the company.

and parallax binding/ring torque + location.

 

[steve123]

I've fiddled with most of the other high end scopes and each one is interesting for various reasons but I flat out love my S&B 5-25 DT. I'd buy another just like it if I could afford to, LOL.

 

[Mendy300wm]

I ran a NXS for years, sold it with another rifle, I'd go with a new Nightforce anyday of the week.

I have been running a Kahles 624i mil4 gen1 for a year now and couldn't be happier with it. The scope is top notch, customer service is top notch, the privious comments on it don't apply to people who use there shit and dont worry about what the outside of the reticle looks like in pitch black room with the illumination turned all the way up.

Right now I would buy another one in MSR, or a BEAST. Those are the options.... And you know who should run one of these two scopes!?!

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KBKXu3Kg4yg

 

[Rob01]

NF is a great scope with an incredible track record, there is no doubt about that but to compare the optical quality to the higher end scopes would be erroneous.

Erroneous - YouTube

 

[jbell]

I have to agree with about everything posted here, except the Hensoldt being the whole package. It would be a great it there were some more choices in reticles & the current C.S. thing, the old MD is just out dated.

I think I would agree with Crosshair the most thought. You need to decide for yourself what is important in a rifle scope for you and how you shoot. I LOVE Nightforce, both as a company and the products they make. However they just don't offer a scope that truly fits my needs 100%. Everyone will have their own idea of the "perfect scope" and it is the perfect scope for them, but not necessarily for you though. My hands down winner is the PMII 5-25X56 DT H2CMR. I don't shoot below 10X so the tunneling is not an issue for me, and I am glass bitch and IMHO the PMII is the winner in that category and I have owned and compared them to Hensoldts, Zeiss Victory FL, NF, K624I, Razor HD, ect... But that is just me your eyes may be different.

So would I recommend for you to take the plunge and get a high end scope, hell yes. But also IMHO you already are shooting one of the best in the NXS if it fits your needs...

 

[diverdon]

If it is at all possible try to get your hands on what you are thinking about and spend some time trying every feature. Long tome ago lowlight said that the new turrets (with the MTC) were too stiff, but many other BM's raved about the S&B 5-25x56 so I thought "how bad can the turrets be. Surely at the price point one could demand perfection and be fussy. But in the end if the glass is perfect and the scope is rugged, what difference would it make if the turrets were a little "stiff." So I got one. Well gosh darn it: the turrets are too stiff, and the MTC is a PITA.

Above this you have advice from some of the smartest experts in the world. But they can not tell you how these scopes are going to look and feel to you. I would try to get where I could play with one before making a final decision.

 

[Shortcut]

I ran a NXS for years, sold it with another rifle, I'd go with a new Nightforce anyday of the week.

I have been running a Kahles 624i mil4 gen1 for a year now and couldn't be happier with it. The scope is top notch, customer service is top notch, the privious comments on it don't apply to people who use there shit and dont worry about what the outside of the reticle looks like in pitch black room with the illumination turned all the way up.

In which way are you happy with the Kahles service? Have you ever had to use it? If not, how would you know? In that case I would tell you I never had to use the Hensoldt customer service. They just don't break.

The illumination problem is not an issue of beeing gay about it. It's simply unacceptable, on a scope of that level an price, to have an illumination that sometimes reminds me of low priced Chinese scopes. Scratches on the reticle plate don't only have to do with the fact that you get weird reflections but rather with the fact that it affects the optics and the light transmission. That is the reason Kahles, after only several months of having the scopes on the market was forced to redo them all and call them Gen 2. This issue however, appears to have continued on their new models as well.

I am glad you are happy with yours. You may either have had the luck to actually get a good scope, you never discovered the problems or, as you say, don't care about them in the field. Good for you!

Loose magnification rings, which is an old problem they used to have at the CSX models, appears to have shown up on the K624i as well. This is serious shit and nothing to be joking about and definitely not something you want to see on a scope which aims to compete against such as Hensoldt, March, Schmidt & Bender, USO and the BEAST when it arrives.

 

[MuleyTime]

In which way are you happy with the Kahles service? Have you ever had to use it? If not, how would you know? In that case I would tell you I never had to use the Hensoldt customer service. They just don't break.

The illumination problem is not an issue of beeing gay about it. It's simply unacceptable, on a scope of that level an price, to have an illumination that sometimes reminds me of low priced Chinese scopes. Scratches on the reticle plate don't only have to do with the fact that you get weird reflections but rather with the fact that it affects the optics and the light transmission. That is the reason Kahles, after only several months of having the scopes on the market was forced to redo them all and call them Gen 2. This issue however, appears to have continued on their new models as well.

I am glad you are happy with yours. You may either have had the luck to actually get a good scope, you never discovered the problems or, as you say, don't care about them in the field. Good for you!

Loose magnification rings, which is an old problem they used to have at the CSX models, appears to have shown up on the K624i as well. This is serious shit and nothing to be joking about and definitely not something you want to see on a scope which aims to compete against such as Hensoldt, March, Schmidt & Bender, USO and the BEAST when it arrives.

Shortcut- I value your opinion, but I have to wonder if it's not more of a case of being lucky and finding a good Khales 624i as much as maybe you happened to get a sub-par one. At least I hope so, as I am now heavily leaning toward the Khales

It's just that in all my research (on the all the scopes), you're comments are about the only real negative ones that I can find on the Khales. Obviously I have researched this site and other sites…..However, more importantly I have personally spoken to various individuals that get to test the living crap out of all the high end scopes, and not one person has brought up the issues you list. Well that's not completely true…there was one person who brought up the illumination bleeding issue, but it was quickly dismissed as shooting with the illumination intensity turned up that high is just not practical……..or is it??

 

[Mendy300wm]

Everything breaks, AIs go down and same with top tier optics... I thought I had a problem with a part on my Kahles, Ken sent me a pick up ticket had the scope to him and back in the same week, not only that but when my scope came back, it had Hats, and lens cleaning stuff and extra bikini covers... You can't find that level of service this day and age.

It would take that long to find a correct phone number for hensoldt

The reason for the gen 2 was, Kahles put out a top end scope and a few people said it wasn't as good as S&B, being able to listen to customers demands and have a fix out within a year is also unheard of. I am of the school of thought of a lot around here I have never made a shot because a scope had better clarity or resolution, give me a scope that tracks perfect and has parallax that works... Glass is a bonus, that's why I don't need a gen 2

 

[glockdan78]

I've had all and I always go back to S&B. The 5-25 pmII with DT ccw turret is just hands down the best especially when you throw some tenebrex caps on it. I will say that the Leupold mark 8 3-25 is a fantastic scope(Glass and eye relief as good or better than schmitd)as well but still not as well built as the schmitty. Key to the mark 8 is finding a good deal, ...if you can get the fed/mil price on one I think it's the best value out there.

 

[0311 Hesco]

OP,
You give any thought to the new 4.5-27 Razor? I'm sure ill be called a fanboy and all that, but the rumor is that it is supposed to have better glass than the old razor, and in my humble opinion, the old razor glass is better than my NSX I had. When I get out of this place, hopefully I will be able to compare the Kahles to the S&B to the new Razor before I buy. Blasphemous? Maybe...

 

[jakelly]

I don't understand why guys get reproved when they mention flaws they have experienced or heard of. Sometimes it's about optical problems and the jist of the reproof is, "You're being too picky, that doesn't matter". Sometimes it's about mechanical issues and the jist is,"everything breaks, welcome to adulthood". I think that a 3k dollar scope should be flawless, obviously the margins are very good here, because lots of companies are launching products into this market. I like hearing about all the little problems with the different offerings.

 

[hk dave]

There have been reports of turrets stripping out. Reticle not responding to turret adjustment due to scope ring location. And the unknown future of the company.

Wow... people still talking about what happened years ago? All of this was dealt with long ago folks.

 

[918v]

I don't understand why guys get reproved when they mention flaws they have experienced or heard of.

Because of emotional ties. The funny thing is these feelings are temporary because the very same people will later sell the scope to get something they feel is better.

I do wish that at that price level the product would 1. Be serviceable 2. Be free of cosmetic or other minor annoyances 3. Set itself apart from consumer-level products by a wide margin.

With that said, how many people on the internet post about problems with #1 or #2 in reference to Hensoldt? Now you may say there aren't many Hensolds out there. I would counter there aren't many $3500 scopes out there period. So when you charge $3500, make sure the thing works.

 

[MuleyTime]

OP,
You give any thought to the new 4.5-27 Razor? I'm sure ill be called a fanboy and all that, but the rumor is that it is supposed to have better glass than the old razor, and in my humble opinion, the old razor glass is better than my NSX I had. When I get out of this place, hopefully I will be able to compare the Kahles to the S&B to the new Razor before I buy. Blasphemous? Maybe...

You know, I have actually been thinking about the new Razor. 5 years ago, I purchased a Vortex spotting scope. Used it one trip out and sold it. I told myself I would never look at Vortex again for anything. They used components back then that reminded me of Chinese Scooters (cheap cheesy parts to keep the price down).

Fast forward to today…..I have to hand it Vortex as they have really stepped up their game. A lot of this comes from them listening to the shooting community and making changes that we all ask for. So, Yes…I absolutely am thinking about new Razor 4.5-22 and I may wait to see how it debuts at SHOT.

I also see that many of the mainstream competitors are switching to Bushnell as well. I may have to take a look there too.

 

[918v]

You know, I have actually been thinking about the new Razor. 5 years ago, I purchased a Vortex spotting scope. Used it one trip out and sold it. I told myself I would never look at Vortex again for anything. They used components back then that reminded me of Chinese Scooters (cheap cheesy parts to keep the price down).

Fast forward to today…..I have to hand it Vortex as they have really stepped up their game.

The problem with optics is you can't take them apart to really know.

 

[sib1948]

I have 2 March scopes and waiting for the BEAST to arrive, but think the best bang for your buck would be with the Vortex Razor HD 5-20X. Love mine. Great glass and reticle choices with unlimited, no fault transferable warranty. You can just stick with your Sightron, since you seem to happy. Spending on ammo and practice will give you more bang for your money.