Suppressors Glock grip angle...

[Blaster4]

I shoot a Sig P229 in .357 at work and run a similar P229 in .40 at some competitions. Now for the 3Gun stuff I use a G35 in .40 or .357Sig...the problem is I hammer with my Sigs...love that gun...but it doesn't have the mag capacity to be competitive in 3gun...hence the G35.

The problem I have with that G35 is I shoot everything high...I know I can train to shoot it but then I might mess with my Sig shooting...which in real life counts the most.

So my question is for those that have reprofiled their Glock grips...has this new grip angle helped? Is it worth doing. I really would like to get this G35 running like my Sig. It's cheap and can hold 20 rounds of 40cal...I would have to spend a lot more to get an equal Sig to replace it.

So, what say you...?

--KJ

 

[GIC]

Re: Glock grip angle...

Sounds like you need to invent the Sig extended magazine! Semper Fidelis!

 

[Outsydlooknin75]

Re: Glock grip angle...

Doesnt the 35 have adjustable sights? Raise the rear sight, it will drop your shots. You are used to a dead hold on the SIG but the Glock uses a 6oclock hold .... so I would change sights on the Glock .... you shouldnt have to change anything in your shooting.

 

[The Mechanic]

Re: Glock grip angle...

Just don't shoot a Beretta. They will shoot to one side if you shoot Glocks. Although you will have Card Blanche excuses to blame your equipment if you don't shoot well.

 

[rock71]

Re: Glock grip angle...

Well, only since you asked, I say the whole Glock grip angle thing is BS made up by shooters who are too lazy to line up the sights. Was that too direct?

Seriously, I carry a Glock at work, but I compete with several other styles including S&W 59 series, 1911s, XDs, and even revolvers. They all handle decidedly differently, but if you use the sights they all hit the target.
Somebody may come along and say "what about point shooting?" <span style="font-weight: bold">I say that if your technique is so nuanced that you can only shoot one style of gun, then you are doing it wrong.</span> Are you a "professional" shooter? If so then you should be able to pick up any gun and shoot it well. Get whatever gun best suits the game that you are playing and have at it. Good Luck.

 

[Dagsta]

Re: Glock grip angle...

Kev my 34 is the same way, I put Heinie sights on it and it still shoots 6 o'clock. But I haven't messed with grip angle. I'm gonna prolly get taller front site.

 

[Blaster4]

Re: Glock grip angle...

I can grab my sig and point it without looking and my sights are level...when I grab the G35 and do the same thing the front sight is on top of the rear...I really have to set the wrists down to li e them up.

I'm not a professional in anything...least of which pistol shooting...I hate pistols and wouldmuch rather have a shotgun carbine or rifle...but one of the "3" guns in 3 Gun has to be a handgun...

It certainly would be easy if someone made a 20 round may for the sign...I know they have them for 9mm...but I would like to shoot major not minor. Maybe I'll just get a M&P or a XD...

Ya when I'm just shooting at the range I can shoot the glock fine...there is no time or points. When I have to run a stage that requires at a minimum of 24 shots (3 on 8 targets)to be done as fast as you can run and squeeze...sorry...the glock shoots high and my sig doesnt...I know I can't be the first person to say the glock naturally points high.

 

[Dagsta]

Re: Glock grip angle...

I'm sorry I meant to say 6 o'clock hold. No you are right on, they shoot high!! It's easy to hold 6 o clock at range but when you are under gun and target may be small, like 2 or 3" ShootnC like we've had on occasion at RO, you're holding off target.

I'm like you I want mine to point and shoot!!!

 

[wcmesa]

Re: Glock grip angle...

Nope it's not just you. If I've been shooting a 2011/1911 my 34 shoots high and vise versa. It all comes down to muscle memory. I can switch platforms with two good days of dry fire. If you really want to shoot the glock try this to get the feel. Take a good two handed free style grip and close your eyes. Raise the pistol to your line of sight then open your eyes. If the sights r there great if not adjust your grip and wrist angle. Eventually move to the pistol in your lap the take a good grip. There should be some good things coming out for the sig comp shooters soon.

 

[Dagsta]

Re: Glock grip angle...

r u talkin about the 226 X5, it's already out!! Ouch, at that price I'll adjust the Glock!! lol

 

[GuyCoker]

Re: Glock grip angle...

This is not the cost effective way, but a CCF race frame with the 1911 grip will correct that problem.

 

[wcmesa]

Re: Glock grip angle...

Not to high Jack but dagsta were you at in louisina

 

[Dagsta]

Re: Glock grip angle...

40mi South of You, St John Parish

 

[dlc356]

Re: Glock grip angle...

It's not BS and it's not just you. After switching to STI for USPSA Ltd. Div. if I just pick up the Glock it hits high. Not so much of a problem on full targets but if you have a taped off section of hard cover or a plate at any distance it can become an issue.

In my case, I know it's going to hit high but muscle memory is a hard thing to overcome. Without slowing down and making a concerted effort it's going to happen. The best way I've heard it explained was the difference in the Glock and 1911 grip angles is like the difference in hand position when pointing at something and shaking hands.

One of my Glocks (21) has a grip reduction that was performed before I bought the pistol. It's grip angle is a lot closer to that of my 2011 and I do shoot it better right of the bat then my others (all factory grips). I'm not sure if it's worth the expense to you or not. In my case the gun was a helluva' deal and the reduction was already there.

It's probably a better idea to just practice with both until it's not an issue.

 

[Outsydlooknin75]

Re: Glock grip angle...

Lonewolf makes a new polymer frame for the Glock as well that has more of a 1911 grip angle.

 

[Blaster4]

Re: Glock grip angle...

What I want is the Sig X5 All Around in .40 cal and then get a .357 and 9mm conversion barrel along with 20 round mags for each caliber. I have all three barrels for my G35 and its awesome...plus the added big mag capacity makes it a cheap alternative to a STI...

I will look into that other frame and weigh the costs verse aggravation...

--KJ

 

[Mr blasty]

Re: Glock grip angle...

Check these guys out:
http://boresightsolutions.com/

 

[JMC]

Re: Glock grip angle...

I held a glock 20 in 10mm that was done by Dale Hunnicutt of: http://gripreductions.com/

I liked how it turned out, I've got a Glock 22 that I'd like to someday have done. I do the same thing as you with the Glock where they just don't point to the right spot for me and i have to fight it down. Yes, I can shoot it but I like having muscle memory so that i can be starting from the right spon and not having to fight to find my sights. I believe that the closer my sights are to the target to start with the better i'll shoot. I can't comment on the CCF raceframe or the Lonewolf frames but I'd love to have a Glock that would point like al my other guns. Otherwise I'm not sure if it would work for you especialy considering all the barrels and accesories you have but I'm really liking the XDm's a lot and might go that route.

Good luck though
JMC

 

[Mo_Zam_Beek]

Re: Glock grip angle...

KJ -

Before you go spend money to fix a training problem go to the range with your timer (and leave it in the bag); from the holster draw and fire. Be deliberate. Find the front sight, find the rear sight - line them up, call your shots. Pick up some speed. I bet it is less than a 100 rounds till your dialed. The problem is you just wanna pick it up and shoot more instinctively like you would with your Sig. Give it 100 deliberate rounds (slow down) and I bet you save some money.... The more you shoot it and the more you transition back and forth the better you will shoot both b/c you will be forced to be more reliant on the sights and less reliant on index.


I switch between Glock / 1911 / BHP - I was corrected the other day b/c I have been operating under the impression that a Glock and a 1911 were the same frame angle (I see no difference in my shooting with any of the three).

Good luck

 

[rock71]

Re: Glock grip angle...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KJDrake</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I can grab my sig and point it without looking and my sights are level...when I grab the G35 and do the same thing the front sight is on top of the rear...I really have to set the wrists down to li e them up.
<span style="color: #FF0000">But you wouldn't shoot it "without looking" would you? If a target is close enough to shoot without aiming, then the angle won't matter.</span>

I'm not a professional in anything...least of which pistol shooting...I hate pistols and wouldmuch rather have a shotgun carbine or rifle...but one of the "3" guns in 3 Gun has to be a handgun...
<span style="color: #CC0000">Doing something different is part of the fun.</span>

It certainly would be easy if someone made a 20 round may for the sign...I know they have them for 9mm...but I would like to shoot major not minor. Maybe I'll just get a M&P or a XD...
<span style="color: #CC0000">Still have to line up the sights.</span>

Ya when I'm just shooting at the range I can shoot the glock fine...there is no time or points. When I have to run a stage that requires at a minimum of 24 shots (3 on 8 targets)to be done as fast as you can run and squeeze...sorry...the glock shoots high and my sig doesnt...I know I can't be the first person to say the glock naturally <span style="color: #CC0000">points high</span>.

<span style="color: #CC0000">No, lots of people say that. I say why settle for being good with a gun, when you can be good with some guns.</span>


</div></div>
I'm not "arguing" just offering my .02.

If it was me, instead of a grip reduction, I would spend the money on a .22 conversion and shoot the piss out of it. It is possible to be good with more thay one system. Good luck.

 

[ToddM]

Re: Glock grip angle...

There's a reason the old saying "beware the man that only shoots one gun" exists in so many shooting disciplines.

Yes if you put massive amounts of time into training and technique you can become extremely proficient with a variety of weapons. Are the best shooters in the world fast with any handgun....sure. However, muscle memory is an advantage in draw and first shot firing time, PERIOD. If you can draw and by the time the gun is on target you don't have to make any significant conscious sight adjustments you are going to be faster. If you have to make major adjustments because your muscle memory is used to another platform or grip angle it's going to slow you down until your muscle memory gets used to the new platform.
Yes if you make serious conscious effort to make sure your sights are lined up all handguns will shoot accuracy but the less correction you need to make, the faster you can get proper sight alignment and fire the first round.

As to changing the grips I've shot a few, some were done better than others, those that were done well were pretty good. Most did help the grip angle issue, but I don't think any of those that I've tried corrected it 100%

 

[jmcneil]

Re: Glock grip angle...

As previously stated by others, you've still gotta line up the sights. I've been carrying the same G22 that was issued to me 15yrs ago, and whether the grip angle is good or bad, after 20K+ rounds I'm more than used to it. Nothing beats good practice, regardless of the platform we're talking about.

I recently had the chance to run a few mags through an M&P40 (which everyone claims has better ergos) and I didn't care for it as much as my Glock simply because it was new and foreign to me. I've heard rumors that I'll be issued an M&P40 in the near future. I'm confident that the switch will be easy with a little time and good practice.

 

[GRIM]

Re: Glock grip angle...

Do a test. Close your eyes and draw your empty weapon from the holster and point it at your target. Then open your eyes. For me the Glock points up perfectly and dead-on target. If I do the same test with an HK USP 40 the front sight is no where to be seen so I have to raise the front of the weapon to get the front sight in view. The Glock points up naturally for me, the larger size grip fits my hand better than a single stack 1911 so I have liked the Glock from day one. Always shot it better than most everything else and I attribute that to natural point of aim. Now - I can shoot any other pistol just fine too but I have to give it more thought while aligning the sights on target. It all comes down to muscle memory and LOTS of rounds downrange.

 

[gugubica]

Re: Glock grip angle...

its called muscle memory or instintive shooting, and good shooters do not line up the sights. the grip angle on a glock fucks this up. fix it, shoot something else or retrain your mussles. doing what you do, i would recommend against retraining...alive is better than first place.

 

[Blaster4]

Re: Glock grip angle...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gugubica</div><div class="ubbcode-body">its called muscle memory or instintive shooting, and good shooters do not line up the sights. the grip angle on a glock fucks this up. fix it, shoot something else or retrain your mussles. doing what you do, i would recommend against retraining...alive is better than first place.</div></div>

I agree...which is why I just want to make that Glock as much like a sig grip as I can. If anything I'll probably just buy a new frame. I'll still be under $1000 for the whole thing...where buying a new Sig X5 would be near $2K

 

[steppenwolf]

Re: Glock grip angle...

Glock grip issues?

The least expensive way, if you otherwise like the gun, is to get a grip reduction. If it's done by someone reputable, you'll get a different feeling gun 100% - like going from a "revolver"-grip to a 1911-grip.

A number of people and outfits offer reduction services, so check around.

I had mine done by Bowie Tactical Concepts ...

www.bowietacticalconcepts.com/pictures.html

<span style="font-weight: bold">10mm G20 & DT 165gn GSHP ammo.</span>

 

[Downzero]

Re: Glock grip angle...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gugubica</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> good shooters do not line up the sights. the grip angle on a glock fucks this up.</div></div>

Did you read this drivel before you hit submit?

 

[gugubica]

Re: Glock grip angle...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gugubica</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> good shooters do not line up the sights. the grip angle on a glock fucks this up.</div></div>

Did you read this drivel before you hit submit? </div></div>I have experienced it. If you shoot enough, you can effectively engage targets on instinct, this is why Drake is having an issue with the radicle grip angle on the Glock. His intints, training and musle memory aim the pistol, not his eye. it is a very effective practice, but when the barrel is pointed higher than what he is used to, it screws up that dynamic.

 

[gugubica]

Re: Glock grip angle...

by the way, one can retrain and change to a gkocj grip angle, but he has a VERY important job that requures him to be proficient with a sig, so retraining would be il-advised. sorry for the poor typing...i hate this fucking phone

 

[Mo_Zam_Beek]

Re: Glock grip angle...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gugubica</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gugubica</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> good shooters do not line up the sights. the grip angle on a glock fucks this up.</div></div>

Did you read this drivel before you hit submit? </div></div>I have experienced it. If you shoot enough, you can effectively engage targets on instinct, this is why Drake is having an issue with the radicle grip angle on the Glock. </div></div>

"Good shooter": If index is the only trick in the bag the shooter is incomplete. Don't believe it? Go shoot some roll over prone at 25 yrds and call your shots, or on your back, or from 50 yrds or.....

Here is another thought - if you really can, it doesn't much matter what is in your hand.....

Pick up a copy of 'Beyond Fundamentals', spend the weekly 30 minutes in front of your Dillon, and go to work. Somehow I am willing to bet that just a 100 rounds a week for one year and a focused mind will yield the cure for the rest of one's life in switching between an entire pile of pistols.

It is a training issue. Not a gear issue.


Good luck

 

[Blaster4]

Re: Glock grip angle...

Mo...I understand what you are saying...I just don't want to risk my current shooting style that works for something new which is just a hobby. My day job is what counts here. I know I can train to shoot anything given enough time...however, time is something else I don't have...I'm busy...My only practice is the match I shot previously...that goes for my long range rifle as well...sad but true.

I had a stable full of HK pistols before I got hired and promptly sold them all because the controls are different than the Sig. I didn't have to but I don't want to risk it...

The glock doesn't has less controls than the Sig..I just have a slide stop lever...not a big issue. I just wanted to run the Glock due to the fact that it cost me less than $1000 to buy the gun, the mags, and the mag extensions...plus I can hold 20 rounds of .40 or .357...that helps is some of this 3Gun stuff.

I'll probably just buy a new frame. I haven't even held a re profiled glock frame yet so until then I will wait since I don't even know for sure that will fix it.

If all else fails then I just keep shooting my .229 in .40 or buy a P226 in .40...I should just shoot Heavy metal and run my P220...LOL.

Thanks for the help gent's.

Gug's, I'm in agreement with you. That's exactly my mindset.

Be safe, shoot well

Respectfully,

--KJ

 

[desertrat1979]

Re: Glock grip angle...

This has been an issue of debate and agrument for so long it almost pairs with the Ford vs. Chevy argument. I am one of those people turned off by Glock due to the grip angle. If it wasn't a problem then ther wouldnt be a market for frames offering a 1911 grip angle. I have to use a Glock at work, and qualify with it. I always do, 100% every time. So, there is nothing technically wrong with the pistol. Its a preference of the user. I have a friend whos first pistol was an issue Glock 21, and almost all his time spent shooting was done with that pistol. Now, he only prefers Glock, as any other pistol is not comfortable to him.

I see no reason to question a shooters ability due to preference. If one spends enough time on a particular weapon then he will obviously have an advantage over someone who is not comfortable with it. If you put the effort into it you can outshoot someone with a Keltec .380. But who would want to? Glock is affordable, accurate, dependable, and durable. I have no issue using one, I never fail to qualify with one, but I have no intent in getting one. I do not find the grip comfortable, and I am not a fan of the trigger.

 

[rrflyer]

Re: Glock grip angle...

the CCF race frames have been problematic.


Stupid glock grip angle cost me a FTN at the Texas State IDPA shoot....damn plastic pickup guns...........................

 

[sosicmcise]

Re: Glock grip angle...

I had the same issue with grip angle when I first learned to shoot a Glock. I was able to fix it by drawing and dry firing about 500 times. It's just muscle memory thats been programmed for a Sig. Most people that I've met will naturally correct it with a bunch of dry fire or about a case of ammo.

Hope it helps.

 

[fasteddie565]

Re: Glock grip angle...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gugubica</div><div class="ubbcode-body">its called muscle memory or instintive shooting, and good shooters do not line up the sights. the grip angle on a glock fucks this up. fix it, shoot something else or retrain your mussles. doing what you do, i would recommend against retraining...alive is better than first place. </div></div>

Wow, and you are from Missouri too? (As am I) I like to consider myself a good shooter and no matter what, I still try to visit with my front sight before a press the trigger. Your muscle memory idea may work on your draw stroke, a mag change and maybe even standing facing a 5 meter target, but if you ask anyone who has fired their handgun under stress, they will probably tell you that their stance and grip was less than stoic. No matter what, I at least try to see my front sight before I press that trigger. Call me crazy

 

[fasteddie565]

Re: Glock grip angle...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sosicmcise</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I had the same issue with grip angle when I first learned to shoot a Glock. I was able to fix it by drawing and dry firing about 500 times. It's just muscle memory thats been programmed for a Sig. Most people that I've met will naturally correct it with a bunch of dry fire or about a case of ammo.

Hope it helps. </div></div>

As I mentioned, draw stroke is a good place to discuss muscle memory. Your muscles cannot fine tune the front end of that barrel to the point you can put two in the chest and one in the head. (pardon the drama)

 

[Mo_Zam_Beek]

Re: Glock grip angle...

Head is hard, chest is easy.

Shooting by index or point shooting is something most will naturally arrive at given enough trigger time. It is simply grooved index reference points (the high 2 / sternum / the shoulder / high and in the face / from the hip and driving the hip to the target / etc). It is a great skill to have that is very effective for fast non sighted fire. The more practice the greater the distance and the greater the speed and accuracy. If you can really point shoot on the fly (full sprint) or while in the groucho and using the upper body as a turret, this is a great technique for practical shooting out to @ 10 - 12 yrds as you are not committing visual resources to the purpose of making effective shots.

However being limited to point shooting does not make one a 'good shooter'.

Enos does a great job in his book 'Beyond Fundamentals' of describing different sight pictures for different applications. The more we work on these and master them the faster and more accurately we can accomplish the task and the less subtle things like grip angles and triggers will have as an influence on the outcome.

I know what KJ wants - and most folks want the same. I have no issue with that. I am simply saying that consistent and focused work on our chops will eliminate the need. I also recognize that not everyone wants to put in that level of work - they enjoy doing other things with their time.

Good luck to all


ps - since most take the time to line up the sights with their carbines - some of the chops for carbines should be point shooting out to 50 yrds - esp on the move. Turn the dot off to confirm.

ETA - Head / Chest - shoot some Mozambique drills (completely) by index - start at arms length and see how fast and accurately you can shoot from a static position out to whatever distance you can. It is a good skill builder that applies to a lot of other facets and gives you a bit of a reference on other things. It definitely helps with reset. At first you are likely to either not let enough slack out b/c you are racing the clock or you will notice your finger comes off the trigger. Also good is an array of 2 - 6 targets, index only, on the clock, head only (1 rnd), chest only (2 rnds), static and on the move - front, backwards, laterals; freestyle, strong hand only, weak hand only. 5 - 7 yrds off a 6 target array, full sprint, heads only, on the clock - pretty good way to spend a few mags every once and a while.

MSU - make stuff up - it all applies if you are focused on the fundamentals.

 

[gugubica]

Re: Glock grip angle...

Time for clarification...

I am sorry if I offeded anyone by saying that good shooters don't use the sight, I should have said good practical shooters don't HAVE to use the sights. I in no way intended to imply that if you still use your sights, you suck...

My comments were intended to be in context of what KJ was asking about and to address some of the "just line up the sights and stop bitching" type of replies.

KJ uses a Sig for work, not a Glock. He needs to be good with a Sig, not a Glock in the real world that could result in somebody being dead. He stated that he did not have to line up the sights to shoot well with the Sig, that tells me that he is a good instinctive shooter (or point shooter). This is a very useful an legitimate skill. In high stress situations, you can NOT count on your brain, it will fail you. You need to be able to rely on your training.

I don't know if he wants to say what he does, but I personally want him to be really, really good with a Sig. Retraining with the Glock so it is natural could comprimise his comfort with the Sig...that could be bad.

Eddie, if you are very familiar with your pistol, i.e. lots of practace, lots or rounds down range, try it next time you are at the range. Don't think, just shoot. You might be surprised at how well you can do and what is possible. Focusing or the front sight is a cognitive process...you have to think about it- your brain says, "focus on front sight, place in front of target, squeze triggger..."

With time and practice, you can eliminate this cognative process, one less step in the process, and be accurate. Pointing a pistol can become just as natural as pointing your finger at an object...do you sight down your finger when you point it at something?

Stay Safe,
Brian




Back on subject, KJ, you have a Glock and 3 barrels for comps, you said you also have a P229 that you use sometimes. If you were willing to sell these, and spend the $1k that you were planning on putting into the Glock, how close would that get you to the X5?

 

[Mo_Zam_Beek]

Re: Glock grip angle...

Not to get to deep into semantics but to me 'practical' means can do it all under any conditions.


Good luck

 

[Blaster4]

Re: Glock grip angle...

I assure you...my sights are lined up every time my Sig goes bang. I just don't have to work hard to get them there. I've practiced over and over to get to that point. I know that in the winter while wearing gloves I shoot about 4 inches lower at my furthest distance I qualify at. I don't know why I just know it's consistent.

I'm pretty in tune with my Sig...that was the point I was getting at and was just looking for a way to trick my hand into thinking the Glock was close to it. I've only shot three 3gun matches to date.

I was guided to buy the Glock due to it's price point of getting set up and ready to go. I shoot my Glock high...they are still in the target and would put you down...just not in the smallest scoring zone on some of these targets End rsult being it cost me time penalties to be added.

So I think the Glock might go bye bye...a P226 or X5 Allround will be in the future for next year.

You guy's be safe and shoot well

Respectfully,

--KJ

 

[Mo_Zam_Beek]

Re: Glock grip angle...

KJ - sorry if I was a wet blanket / Debbie Downer - that was not my original intent.

Take care and Good luck

 

[EricM40]

Re: Glock grip angle...

Get one of these
http://www.sigsauer.com/products/ShowCatalogProductDetails.aspx?categoryid=7&productid=299