Going MC: Cadex Kraken or AI AXSR?

[ablock]

Hello all.

I've owned an AI AWM in .300 WM since the early 2000s. I've decided it's time to sell it and move to a multi caliber platform. Long range opportunities are rare around here so having a .308 for regular use that can occasionally be converted to a long distance chambering makes sense.

I love my AWM so am inclined to stick with AI, but I know people adore their Cadexes as well. Anyone have direct comparable experience to offer? (I realize the AXSR is not yet available, so of course thoughts based on ASR / PSR / AXMC would be valuable.}

Optic selection will be the same in either case: S&B PMII 5-25 or NF ATACR 7-35.

Many thanks.

/afb

 

[mercracing]

AXMC!

 

[Zane777]

AXSR
I have a Kraken in 338 LM, great rifle. But I still want a AXSR.

 

[GIXXER2000]

The downside to the Cadex is you have a VERY limited sources for barreles. With the AI multiple great gunsmith are spinning up really good barrels. Don't get me wrong the Kraken is a really good system. I shot the 300 Norma at range day at the Shot Show and easily hit steel at 1100 yards with not much effort.

 

[NoLegs24]

Keep the AWM and buy an AXSR...

 

[MACHTECH]

I've got both the AI and the kraken. Phil is correct about barrel availability. It's way easier to obtain barrels for the AI. The kraken is really nice when switching barrels though. There's virtually no poi shift. You won't go wrong with either one.

 

[LA260]

D. TRG M10

 

[ablock]

I have a Kraken in 338 LM, great rifle. But I still want a AXSR.

Well, why? Any reason besides the obvious appeal of variety?

 

[Zane777]

Well, why? Any reason besides the obvious appeal of variety?

Barrel.
Kraken barrels are pretty pricy and you can’t order it with the specific FB or Chamber neck thickness you like. At the same time, I can’t find any gunsmiths near me to cut a barrel for Kraken.

 

[ablock]

D. TRG M10

The Sako is nice system as well. Why do you prefer it over AI or Cadex?

 

[roamin]

Can't speak about other countries but here in the US AI supports their product more than Cadex and especially more than Sako does theirs. Also very hard to say no to current $6700 pricing on the AXMC.

 

[ablock]

Appreciate all the feedback.

I suppose — using the PSR submissions as a guide — I could add the TRG M10, SRS A2, and Remington PSR to the consideration set. Though PSR is only available as a kit which isn't optimal since I don't need .300 WM — which is also why I don't want an ASR.

Not sure if TPGs are still available. FN Ballista is kind of interesting (uh grip safety?) but TBH I don't love the giant receiver look. Not interested in Armalite/Barrett/Blaser.

 

[roamin]

Appreciate all the feedback.

I suppose — using the PSR submissions as a guide — I could add the TRG M10, SRS A2, and Remington PSR to the consideration set. Though PSR is only available as a kit which isn't optimal since I don't need .300 WM — which is also why I don't want an ASR.

Not sure if TPGs are still available. FN Ballista is kind of interesting (uh grip safety?) but TBH I don't love the giant receiver look. Not interested in Armalite/Barrett/Blaser.

If you're actually serious about buying one of these rifles and aren't just jerking off to one then at least for me probably the most critical point of contention is when I break a small part 20 years from now and the rifle's no longer in production which manufacturer is most likely to still offer factory parts support or am I left with a $7,000-$10,000 paperweight at that time. Eventually all of them will go out production and IMO when you loose factory parts support you have a firing display piece rather than a fully functional firearm. Again at least the US AI supports their product more than the other manufacturers in this market space do theirs.

 

[ablock]

If you're actually serious about buying one of these rifles and aren't just jerking off to one then at least for me probably the most critical point of contention is when I break a small part 20 years from now and the rifle's no longer in production which manufacturer is most likely to still offer factory parts support...

Since as I mentioned in my initial post I am the original owner of an early 2000s AWM, this is in fact a critical issue, and I’m 70% of the way to committing to another AI. Still found the feedback from owners of other brands useful, however.

 

[roamin]

Since as I mentioned in my initial post I am the original owner of an early 2000s AWM, this is in fact a critical issue, and I’m 70% of the way to committing to another AI. Still found the feedback from owners of other brands useful, however.

MHSA the US AI warranty center still stocks parts for AE MKII's.

 

[slayer 2c]

I've got both the AI and the kraken. Phil is correct about barrel availability. It's way easier to obtain barrels for the AI. The kraken is really nice when switching barrels though. There's virtually no poi shift. You won't go wrong with either one.
View attachment 7239305
View attachment 7239306

Your like the third person to mention POI shift when changing barrels. Is the POI shift on the AI repeatable, I mean is it the same every time?

I too am in the market for an AI and until this weekend I was getting an AXMC from Mike. After listening to the last episode of the Everyday Sniper and Mike and Frank eluding that something is coming from AI that made me think I may want to wait to see.

 

[ablock]

Your like the third person to mention POI shift when changing barrels. Is the POI shift on the AI repeatable, I mean is it the same every time?

Spoke to a guy (Joe, I think?) at MHSA today who told me that they tried removing and replacing a 6CM barrel to see how the POI changed and the result was like 1/10MOA (he told me 1/10", I assume he meant at 100 yds). If that's true generally that's pretty impressive.

 

[slayer 2c]

Spoke to a guy (Joe, I think?) at MHSA today who told me that they tried removing and replacing a 6CM barrel to see how the POI changed and the result was like 1/10MOA (he told me 1/10", I assume he meant at 100 yds). If that's true generally that's pretty impressive.

I can attest to that. I shoot with a guy who owns an ax in 6.5 and when he removes the barrel and puts it back on the zero does not change. It just stacks them in one hole, last week he got a squib stuck in the barrel, unscrewed it, knocked it out, screwed it back on, and stacked them right back in the same hole. The AI is an impressive system.

 

[beenjammin]

I usually swap between .308 and 6.5cm in between back to back relays. I use a torque driver to set the action screw, but the impact shift has never cost me any points. i always thought it was extremely repeatable. I so wanna say cadex , but have to lean AXSR due to barrel availability. I had no idea the Kraken barrels were only available through Cadex... Thats a real bummer.

 

[Longshot85]

Both systems look solid and I've looked into both. I would lean AI for the above mentioned reasons but I don't own either currently.

Before the Kraken came out I came up with a group of parts to do a multical setup using a custom long action and a Cadex chassis. The train of thought was ...... IF a person wanted to pursue the idea of buying one action/scope and making it a "do it all" setup. The Cadex dual strike has a bottom metal that removable and there are several magazine insert options to fit various magazines. This was about 5 years ago and you could buy an M24 conversion plate. Essentially you could install this plate on a chassis and it allowed you to run .308 magazines on a long action(.338LM capable). It could simply be unbolted and long action version with magazine insert swapped then swap barrel/bolt and there's your caliber conversion. The only advantage is you would be able to remove the barreled action,scope base and scope while leaving it all together and slap it into a lightweight hunting stock. The other big thing was at the time there was no option for .223 in an AXMC and the action MFG was gonna work with myself and a friend to work out the feeding and extraction on a couple custom bolts. So the concept was run .223, .308, 6.5CM, .300WM, .338LM, .338NM etc off one action/scope and be able to run in a chassis or lightweight hunting rig. We both got busy and never went through with it but if that M24 adapter is still available then it could still be done. I did verify with the Cadex rep in the USA in GA at the time that a civilian could buy this part (was about $340) and verified the concept would work.

Now the Kraken is out and AI stuff is more awesome than ever with all the aftermarket stuff available.

 

[sharpshot50]

In my AXMC, not only is the POI consistent between barrel swaps, it also stays within 1/3 MOA between three different 338LM barrels (at 100 yards). I suspect it would be even closer if they were the same length barrels.

It is indeed very impressive.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

Haven't had the Kraken but had a couple other Cadex rifles. They are great rifles, but IMO not AI's and barrel sourcing is definitely a concern.

As to the AI POI shift, yes it is 100% repeatable if you follow a certain process. If you just slap the barrel in and torque the nut to spec it will take a few rounds to settle in each time. For repeatable POI:

1. Install barrel with hand guard removed so no dust or debris inside the hand guard and get pushed down between the mating surfaces.
2. Wipe action face and barrel shoulder off before installing the barrel.
3. Install with butt down, muzzle straight up and snug with a wrench, just a few ftlbs to seat the barrel, not cranking on it.
4. Torque the bolt to 70inlbs. I also found this makes the gun shoot better too being tighter, but POI is also consistent. IMO 49 inlbs is not enough for best results.

Do that and you can cut a group as tight removing and installing the barrel each shot as you can leaving it on.

 

[slayer 2c]

Torque the bolt? Forgive me but could you explain. Just ordered an AIMC from Milehigh and would like to understand before it gets here.

 

[Supersubes]

Torque the bolt? Forgive me but could you explain. Just ordered an AIMC from Milehigh and would like to understand before it gets here.

He’s talking about the quickloc bolt on the side of the receiver. Easy button stuff, and redneck laid out the process.

 

[spife7980]

Torque the bolt? Forgive me but could you explain. Just ordered an AIMC from Milehigh and would like to understand before it gets here.

You can see how the action threads clamp down on the barrel here

 

[ablock]

Yeah, I understand that 5.5 Nm (49 in-lbs) is the recommend value and what the included 4mm allen wrench is calibrated to. Interesting that 8 Nm (70 in-lbs) gives better results.

 

[beenjammin]

i have been using this set at 50. Good old fat wrench.

https://www.amazon.com/Wheeler-Firearms-Accurizing-Torque-Wrench/dp/B07YXCX5JT

 

[slayer 2c]

Ok I see the set screw I got ya!!!! Thank you. I also just realized I called it an AImc not AXMC, duh.
Mike makes a hell of a deal. Just looking to understand as much as I can before it gets here.

 

[powerspc]

Went through the same process a few years ago and ended up going with the KRAKEN. That said I have never owned or shot an AI so have no basis of comparison. Cadex uses Bartlein barrels and that was good enough for me at the time.

What I can add is I did have an issue with my .300WM barrel and I can attest to the fact that their Customer Service was incredible. Serge (yes, the President and CEO) got on the call with me while I explained the problem and made sure I had his personal cell phone number in case I ran into any issues. They have a facility in Vermont so they do not have to cross the border (Canada). POI shift with barrel changes is essentially zero; I am shooting it in .338LM, .300WM, .308 Winchester and 6.5CM with a TT525P. My guess is you’ll be happy anyway you end up going! Good luck!

 

[GIXXER2000]

Too assist with point of impact shift I always use a 6nm preset T handle toque wrench and have not had any issues.

 

[TacT-MecH]

Sorry to dig up an old thread but I'm having a hard time understanding how the kraken barrels are "hard to obtain". Can't a 'smith just take measurements from the existing barrel and copy the tenon thread? I'd be interested to see what's so difficult. Or are we just talking available prefits?

 

[GIXXER2000]

The way you use the action wrench in not the same as an REM 700. Take alook at the Cadex You Tube on Cadex barrel swap.

 

[Mr. F]

Sorry to dig up an old thread but I'm having a hard time understanding how the kraken barrels are "hard to obtain". Can't a 'smith just take measurements from the existing barrel and copy the tenon thread? I'd be interested to see what's so difficult. Or are we just talking available prefits?

The gun uses different thickness recoil lugs to control the headspace so you need a new one each time you rebarrel. Thats info from a Cadex rep i had a chat with about 1.5 yrs ago when i was considering a Cadex factory gun.

Lead time BACK THEN... was 6-8 weeks and the cost of a replacement barrel with new lug, painted, fluted and threaded (no break) was BACK THEN... $1323.90 blank included plus shipping not including their vice and wrench which was about $200 more.

Things were "good" back then and it steered me away... The AI process is a lot less painless, economical and quicker IMO

 

[Perceptiv]

Own both, mostly what everyone has said is true, the barrel availability is way better for the Ai.
the barrel change is quicker on the Ai but the poi shift and repeatability on the Kraken is better, the Kraken is probably the best repeatable switch barrel system out there.

I would trust the Ai trigger more out in the field, and the Cadex trigger doesn’t really have a true 2 stage trigger like advertised, the first stage is is very short and non adjustable and very very light to where it doesn’t really function like a true 2 stage. But the trigger is very crisp and in single stage it is just as good as my trigger tech, and the cadex trigger is really reliable and more so than most, just not quite Ai reliable.

the bolt and feeding on the Ai is better, the kraken bolt won’t slide back and forth as smoothly because if you aren’t running it back and forth really straight it will feel like it gets stuck if you put pressure to either side as you are running it back and forth. The Ai you can press into it towards either side while running it and it will still slide smoothly. But that being said the kraken bolt is very well built and bomb proof and it does run very very good and smooth if you you are a half decent shooter and know how to run the bolt straight. Bolt lift and close is pretty close between the two

the Ai is sexy and has that mythical look to it and I do like it equally in looks, but..... the cadex system is in my opinion the best machined system/chassis out there, and they are probably the best CNC machinists in the business, every cut and angle and joint is perfect.

Both are incredible systems and the kraken is a very reliable rugged system, as we all know Ai is. You won’t be disappointed with either one and maybe seeing as you have owned an Ai take a little harder look at the cadex or try getting a hands on with one before deciding.

 

[schmi015]

The real question you have to ask yourself is AI or MRAD? Both systems are phenomenal.

 

[Long Range 338]

I've got the AXMC and a couple different Cadex rifles (not the Kraken) and I love both. AI is obviously got its long track history on its side and barrels are easy to find as stated elsewhere. The Kraken is fairly new and there don't seem to be nearly as many in the wild. They are both great systems and you're not gonna be left lacking either way.

The ergonomics on each is a little different and the look as well. I would say pick a feature set that is most important, just like we tell folks about their optic. If all the options are of comparable quality and price then it comes down to smaller feature sets (ergos, customization, chambering options, magazines, hell maybe just your favorite color).

If I was Canadian it would be Cadex for sure.

 

[Jefe~]

I noticed I am late to this thread, which has a lot of great info.
I too am looking at these two rifles ( not a fan of the aesthetics of the MRAD although it is a great system ) but I can't get over the price of the AI.

I was going to have my new rifle built by GAP but started considering the cost of custom vs a high end multi caliber setup which landed me here.
If I am not mistaken the AXMC is nearly 2X the price of the Kraken. Is the price justified? Looking for 300 PRC as the initial configuration.

 

[hafejd30]

I noticed I am late to this thread, which has a lot of great info.
I too am looking at these two rifles ( not a fan of the aesthetics of the MRAD although it is a great system ) but I can't get over the price of the AI.

I was going to have my new rifle built by GAP but started considering the cost of custom vs a high end multi caliber setup which landed me here.
If I am not mistaken the AXMC is nearly 2X the price of the Kraken. Is the price justified? Looking for 300 PRC as the initial configuration.

Looks like $6,720 for the Cadex at euro

Cadex Kraken Multi-Caliber Rifles

EuroOptic is an Authorized Distributor of Cadex Kraken Multi-Caliber Rifles. We have rifles in stock and ready to ship now.

www.eurooptic.com

$9900 for AXSR (the newer version of MC) at euro

Accuracy International AXSR Rifles

Pre-Order Accuracy International AXSR Rifles at EuroOptic.com or give us a call at 570-368-3920!

www.eurooptic.com

You can find both AXMC and AXSR in the px section here for about the same $$ as the Cadex

 

[hafejd30]

I noticed I am late to this thread, which has a lot of great info.
I too am looking at these two rifles ( not a fan of the aesthetics of the MRAD although it is a great system ) but I can't get over the price of the AI.

I was going to have my new rifle built by GAP but started considering the cost of custom vs a high end multi caliber setup which landed me here.
If I am not mistaken the AXMC is nearly 2X the price of the Kraken. Is the price justified? Looking for 300 PRC as the initial configuration.

I owned a GAP which I had in a Cadex chassis before buying my first AI

GAP

I now own two AI’s (AT and AXMC) The AI is a completely different animal.

There’s past threads comparing them and I’ve added my thoughts between the two there. If you search for those threads you’ll likely come across the posts

Both AT and AXMC where purchased from members here in he px

AI’s

 

[Jefe~]

I owned a GAP which I had in a Cadex chassis before buying my first AI

GAP
View attachment 7794428

I now own two AI’s (AT and AXMC) The AI is a completely different animal.

There’s past threads comparing them and I’ve added my thoughts between the two there. If you search for those threads you’ll likely come across the posts

Both AT and AXMC where purchased from members here in he px

AI’s
View attachment 7794436

Thanks for responding!

 

[Long Range 338]

The more time passes, the more impressed I am with Cadex. The fit and finish really is second to none. The downside vs the AI remains the aftermarket support by other manufacturers/smiths. If you're looking for anything Cadex, they are taking a 10% increase on new orders as of the new year.

 

[JB.IC]

Haven't had the Kraken but had a couple other Cadex rifles. They are great rifles, but IMO not AI's and barrel sourcing is definitely a concern.

As to the AI POI shift, yes it is 100% repeatable if you follow a certain process. If you just slap the barrel in and torque the nut to spec it will take a few rounds to settle in each time. For repeatable POI:

1. Install barrel with hand guard removed so no dust or debris inside the hand guard and get pushed down between the mating surfaces.
2. Wipe action face and barrel shoulder off before installing the barrel.
3. Install with butt down, muzzle straight up and snug with a wrench, just a few ftlbs to seat the barrel, not cranking on it.
4. Torque the bolt to 70inlbs. I also found this makes the gun shoot better too being tighter, but POI is also consistent. IMO 49 inlbs is not enough for best results.

Do that and you can cut a group as tight removing and installing the barrel each shot as you can leaving it on.

In reference to the 70inlbs for point number 4. Do you know if the quickloc screw doesn’t stretch under that load?

 

[GIXXER2000]

I spent some time at the Cadex both at Shot Show and the CEO got a little mad when I was showing my buddy how the Kraken barrel quick change works. He said point blank he would sue anyone's ass off if the tried to copy barrel machine work and sold aftermarket barrels. So with that It limits your options. I went with AI about 8 years ago.

 

[W54/XM-388]

I spent some time at the Cadex both at Shot Show and the CEO got a little mad when I was showing my buddy how the Kraken barrel quick change works. He said point blank he would sue anyone's ass off if the tried to copy barrel machine work and sold aftermarket barrels. So with that It limits your options. I went with AI about 8 years ago.

Well that kind of makes things a very easy decision for a lot of folks...
With AI, you can get barrels from any number of well-regarded barrel finishers based on whoever's barrel you want, customized to what you want to shoot.

 

[hafejd30]

I spent some time at the Cadex both at Shot Show and the CEO got a little mad when I was showing my buddy how the Kraken barrel quick change works. He said point blank he would sue anyone's ass off if the tried to copy barrel machine work and sold aftermarket barrels. So with that It limits your options. I went with AI about 8 years ago.View attachment 7796500

AI for the win!!!

 

[JB.IC]

also, the AI barrels are cheaper. There’s an entire single point of failure with the Kraken. You have to rely on Cadex which is an awesome company but it already takes damn near a year to get a barrel. At least with AI you can get barrels from any gunsmith that knows the tenon. I can call up a gunsmith today and have an AXSR barrel next week. I cannot do that with Cadex and I’ve had many Cadex products.

 

[Long Range 338]

He said point blank he would sue anyone's ass off if the tried to copy barrel machine work and sold aftermarket barrels.

I guess that solves the mystery of no aftermarket support. While I wish that wasn't the case, I can understand from a manufacturer's point of view the liability involved with allowing others to copy or make prefits for your system - especially on a multi cal designed system that is used to pursue military contracts. That is definitely going to hold the Kraken at a disadvantage in the commercial market.

 

[JB.IC]

The Kraken action by itself, is actually a nice spec’d action.

It has v-bed slots cut into it to mate with the v-bed kraken chassis. Which I’m a huge fan of this.
1.1875” tenon. I like bigger tenon.
0.350” integral recoil lug
Up to 3.850” magazine

So, it’s not like the kraken can’t compete. It’s just that Cadex is treating it like a secret and that’s BS.

Any good gunsmith out there can take a Cadex Kraken and make a standard action wrench to match the actions lug pattern. They can remove the barrel. Measure it and duplicate that and make their own barrel. That’s easy. But why should they have to do that when companies like AI allow their AXSR/AXMC print to be available to gunsmiths.

 

[Long Range 338]

The Kraken action by itself, is actually a nice spec’d action.

It has v-bed slots cut into it to mate with the v-bed kraken chassis. Which I’m a huge fan of this.
1.1875” tenon. I like bigger tenon.
0.350” integral recoil lug
Up to 3.850” magazine

So, it’s not like the kraken can’t compete. It’s just that Cadex is treating it like a secret and that’s BS.

Any good gunsmith out there can take a Cadex Kraken and make a standard action wrench to match the actions lug pattern. They can remove the barrel. Measure it and duplicate that and make their own barrel. That’s easy. But why should they have to do that when companies like AI allow their AXSR/AXMC print to be available to gunsmiths.

Agreed. Or at least have prefits on the shelf for quick availability even if they are more money than an aftermarket AI. Failing to provide support for your own system stifles its popularity - just like Barrett stifled the sales of the MRAD by not supporting their own system.

 

[JB.IC]

Agreed. Or at least have prefits on the shelf for quick availability even if they are more money than an aftermarket AI. Failing to provide support for your own system stifles its popularity - just like Barrett stifled the sales of the MRAD by not supporting their own system.

They treat it like they’re the sole drug dealer and create a dependency. Which is a normal business tactic so no hate there. Except I don’t need a single drug dealer with AI. They’re all around the block. lol I used a drug analogy and yet drugs would be cheaper than owning firearms