Night Vision Going to jump in, but which way to go?

[Totdoc]

I've been debating getting into night vision for a while, but I've really been dragging my feet. I know that at some point I will need to buy 2 sets, since the wife has made it quite clear that she would also like a set if I get one. We are realistic, though, that I won't be getting both sets at the same time.
We don't have any real reason to do this... we largely want to run around the neighborhood at night chasing cats, or going out to the woods to look for critters. I would love to do some night fighter classes, however, and I'm sure the wife would want to after I do, too. I do have a serious interest in popping some pigs, but I am far from a serious hunter. My dad is, though, and would gladly borrow a set of nods to head out with me.
So...I am thinking that the best path forward is to just start buying some gear. To that end, I figured the current deal on cotis was too good to pass up, so I got one. Now I'm wondering what's next.
I *think* I'd like a set of WP duals and another set of dual band, likely with a nox, since I could just weapon mount the nox and get another 14 in case neither of our brains like dual band.
So... if I do this, I have a few questions:
1) which setup should I buy first? I was initially thinking it looks like their may be more backorder for parts on the dual band side, so I was thinking the duals might be worth getting first.
2) for the duals, I was looking at tnvc 31a's, or the photonis PD-PRO-16B. I think I really like the small size and aluminum housings of the photonis, and it sounds like it may function a little better in our suburban usage, but I've never laid my hands or eyes on either. Also, I have concerns about being able to mount the coti to either set... can it be done easily?
3) for the dual band set, I was thinking a nox and a 14, probably on a mod armory d14... unless the light weight is a better option? Was debating a high fom l3 from tnvc, but wondering if a hand select of one of their own units is a better idea? Especially if I get duals first, a delay to wait for a 14 with great specs wouldn't be a big deal, and the extra warranty would be nice.
4) what mount is best to attach either of these to a helmet? I have an ops core helmet.

Sorry for the wall of text... but I'm suffering from analysis paralysis here and would really love some input so I can finally make a purchase

Thanks!

 

[_Windrider_]

If you tag this with night vision you will get more responses. Lots of knowledgeable people here on this subject.

try this

Observation & Sighting Devices

Discussion of optics and sight devices for precision shooting

www.snipershide.com

 

[Totdoc]

If you tag this with night vision you will get more responses. Lots of knowledgeable people here on this subject.

Hah, thought I did that already! Hopefully that fixed it... thanks!

 

[WhereNow&How]

2) for the duals, I was looking at tnvc 31a's, or the photonis PD-PRO-16B. I think I really like the small size and aluminum housings of the photonis, and it sounds like it may function a little better in our suburban usage, but I've never laid my hands or eyes on either. Also, I have concerns about being able to mount the coti to either set... can it be done easily?

The last set of NODs I would ever buy is the TNVC 31a's

Way too expensive at $13,700 for a system that has no diopters, no onboard illumination, that breaks easily at the hinges, has only a 1 year warranty and can only be fixed by L3.

There are many, many better options out there than PVS 31's.

 

[MK20]

@Totdoc

If you can wait a month and change I will be able to provide feedback on the Photonis 16b vs PVS 31s. I have a set of the photonis on the way.

If I were you I would start by getting a couple of Perst 4 or Perst 3 lasers. Who knows how much longer they will be easy to get. Go on eBay and order them from Zenitco

I think the photonis will be superior to the L3 in construction, size, and weight. I just want to see how they stack up in really low light. I know they should be noticeably superior in suburban/urban areas.

 

[WhereNow&How]

Well I am a self confessed bridged PVS 14 BIGOT. But I got a hard head and strong neck.

However, if I were going to buy a dedicated set of bino's my first choice would be these. You can get any flavored tube you want in them.

https://jrhenterprises.com/Ultra-light-BNVD-SG-Night-Vision-White-Phosphor-dual-tube-ULBNVDSG.htm

The NVD Ultra Light BNVD would be especially good for your wife as they are super lightweight, strong, feature rich and have a 10 year warranty. And your COTI will work perfectly with the NVD UL BNVD.

Elites Potonis units would be my next choice.

Maybe you can get one of each and have the best of all worlds.

 

[GreenMushroom]

My path was somewhat similar to yours. If your not in a hurry I would get the nox 1st and assess that to figure out what role its going to play before moving forward. They're starting to trickle out and there's some reviews but they are still an unknown. The biggest question to me is how well they work for navigating.

My wife runs a pvs14 with a coti and is happy with it but if she's comfortable navigating with the nox she might end up with that. Hopefully our nox will show up next weekend and we'll see. The coti is a little on the finicky side and takes some micro management which she's not always the best with. Your wife probably isn't going to like running dual devices as its quite heavy. I would recommend single pvs14 with coti or light weight binos with coti or just a single nox if the navigation works for her.

 

[MK20]

Check out those photonis sets for weight.

 

[WhereNow&How]

I would recommend single pvs14 with coti or light weight binos with coti or just a single nox if the navigation works for her.

Trying to navigate with just a Thermal will likely get someone hurt or worst case killed in my part of the world.

Even the best HMT is a navigating supplement to NV. It can work ok in combination with NV (flipping back and forth on footpath scene), but if you are off in the deep dark woods and temperatures of objects are the same, such that you are in the "sea of soup", you could well walk off into a bad hole or worse.

Yeah, you can make out navigating with just a HMT on known terrain that is not rough, but in rough unknown terrain that is in the "sea of soup" it is a dangerous no go.

Here is what the "sea of soup" looks like.

 

[GreenMushroom]

Trying to navigate with just a Thermal will likely get someone hurt or worst case killed in my part of the world.

Even the best HMT is a navigating supplement to NV. It can work ok in combination with NV (flipping back and forth on footpath scene), but if you are off in the deep dark woods and temperatures of objects are the same, such that you are in the "sea of soup", you could well walk off into a bad hole or worse.

Yeah, you can make out navigating with just a HMT on known terrain that is not rough, but in rough unknown terrain that is in the "sea of soup" it is a dangerous no go.

Here is what the "sea of soup" looks like.

I know that is the conventional wisdom and is probably the case here as well but I'm going to try out the nox in that capacity to see what it's capable of. It would be silly not to. I've seen plenty of video from breaches and agree I wouldn't want to try and navigating with one. I'm curious if the nox and newer iray stuff are different animals.

People seem to be of the mindset that something either works or doesn't for navigation where as I'm looking at it as a sliding scale.if complex terrain is a no go then what about walking fire roads? We do that a lot so thats a valuable capability to us. I could navigate with my coti and its eye piece if I was willing to crawl on hands and knees so its all relative.

 

[WhereNow&How]

I know that is the conventional wisdom and is probably the case here as well but I'm going to try out the nox in that capacity to see what it's capable of. It would be silly not to. I've seen plenty of video from breaches and agree I wouldn't want to try and navigating with one. I'm curious if the nox and newer iray stuff are different animals.

People seem to be of the mindset that something either works or doesn't for navigation where as I'm looking at it as a sliding scale.if complex terrain is a no go then what about walking fire roads? We do that a lot so thats a valuable capability to us. I could navigate with my coti and its eye piece if I was willing to crawl on hands and knees so its all relative.

Well the short story is sometimes you can, but sometimes you can't. Depends on the "sea of soup"

But I feel strongly in saying, I would not rely on Thermal 100% of the time at all as my only means to navigate in the dark.

Best to always have both when navigating and an ILLUMINATOR. I do not speak from conventional wisdom. I speak from actually doing it.

Don't underestimate the Breach, especially for close range navigating (walking style). Many using thermal do not know how to make the correct adjustments to get all the performance out out of their devices.

 

[GreenMushroom]

Well the short story is sometimes you can, but sometimes you can't. Depends on the "sea of soup"

But I feel strongly in saying, I would not rely on Thermal 100% of the time at all as my only means to navigate in the dark.

Best to always have both when navigating and an ILLUMINATOR. I do not speak from conventional wisdom. I speak from actually doing it.

Don't underestimate the Breach, especially for close range navigating (walking style). Many using thermal do not know how to make the correct adjustments to get all the performance out out of their devices.

I'm not knocking the breach but the nox cost 2x so I I'll be disappointed if it isn't more capable. A lot of my thinking on this stems from my wife only being able to use one device at a time. Our goal is to have 2 pvs14s, a coti, and 2 thermals. The original plan was purchase a nox35 for her if we were happy with the 18. She would have pvs14/coti for head mount and nox 35 as handheld/rifle mount. Her inability to get a long with the coti has sent me back to the drawing board.

Possible new plan is 2 nox18 for thermals. She could switch back and fourth between the 18 and her 14 as needed. The reason why the navigating is important is if the nox is sufficient for fire roads/parks it allows us to let family/friends wear our 14s and come with us. We aren't hunters and have these primarily for recreation so this is a bigger deal to us than it might be for some.

 

[wigwamitus]

Sorry for being late to the partee ...

... I would not rely on Thermal 100% of the time at all as my only means to navigate in the dark

While I agree with that ... and I generally have both on my head .. If I could have just one, I would go with thermal. Now, terrain and typical conditions matter a lot. But I am often rolling on 4 wheeler across creek fords and tall thin pipe bridges, in the woods and I feel a lot safer with thermal than I do with NV. That definitely flies in the face on conventional wisdom, but I go by what my eyes see, in the terrain I'm in, in the conditions I'm in.

In general both is good. In some situations dual 14s is best (snow, driving vehicles with glass), in other situations a minimalist setup is great, a single 14 with a coti on it. That gives you dual band, but with less weight and bulk for maximum mobility.
And so on. If there was one perfect setup, for all terrain, conditions, missions, etc, we would all be using it.

One key advantage of NV is it can see the laser and that's why I almost always have a 14 up there.

But thermal can see the critters, in vegetation (and other shadows) where the 14 can't. And for critters in/behind vegetation, trying to use illum will make things worse, not better as your illum will bounce right back at you and wash out what little you could see. So, if you want to see the critters, thermal is a must unless you're in open/cut fields, for example.

 

[Totdoc]

The last set of NODs I would ever buy is the TNVC 31a's

Way too expensive at $13,700 for a system that has no diopters, no onboard illumination, that breaks easily at the hinges, has only a 1 year warranty and can only be fixed by L3.

There are many, many better options out there than PVS 31's.

Wow... alright, that was super helpful!

 

[Totdoc]

@Totdoc

If you can wait a month and change I will be able to provide feedback on the Photonis 16b vs PVS 31s. I have a set of the photonis on the way.

If I were you I would start by getting a couple of Perst 4 or Perst 3 lasers. Who knows how much longer they will be easy to get. Go on eBay and order them from Zenitco

I think the photonis will be superior to the L3 in construction, size, and weight. I just want to see how they stack up in really low light. I know they should be noticeably superior in suburban/urban areas.

I actually just ordered a perst 3 off ebay right after I made this post! Good call! Glad to hear you have a new set of binos on the way!

 

[Totdoc]

Well I am a self confessed bridged PVS 14 BIGOT. But I got a hard head and strong neck.

However, if I were going to buy a dedicated set of bino's my first choice would be these. You can get any flavored tube you want in them.

https://jrhenterprises.com/Ultra-light-BNVD-SG-Night-Vision-White-Phosphor-dual-tube-ULBNVDSG.htm

The NVD Ultra Light BNVD would be especially good for your wife as they are super lightweight, strong, feature rich and have a 10 year warranty. And your COTI will work perfectly with the NVD UL BNVD.

Elites Potonis units would be my next choice.

Maybe you can get one of each and have the best of all worlds.

Hard to argue with the price on those... thanks for the suggestion!

 

[Totdoc]

My path was somewhat similar to yours. If your not in a hurry I would get the nox 1st and assess that to figure out what role its going to play before moving forward. They're starting to trickle out and there's some reviews but they are still an unknown. The biggest question to me is how well they work for navigating.

My wife runs a pvs14 with a coti and is happy with it but if she's comfortable navigating with the nox she might end up with that. Hopefully our nox will show up next weekend and we'll see. The coti is a little on the finicky side and takes some micro management which she's not always the best with. Your wife probably isn't going to like running dual devices as its quite heavy. I would recommend single pvs14 with coti or light weight binos with coti or just a single nox if the navigation works for her.

All good points...I had considered the possibility of getting the nox first, but I hear what you're saying about the weight

 

[Totdoc]

If there was one perfect setup, for all terrain, conditions, missions, etc, we would all be using it.

One key advantage of NV is it can see the laser and that's why I almost always have a 14 up there.

This about sums it up. Honestly, I think my wife would love a dual thermal setup. She's all about looking for critters. I wish there was a NV equivalent to the coti that could attach to a thermal to allow you to see lasers... that would probably be best of both worlds...

 

[Totdoc]

Thanks for all the advice so far! I'm super glad I asked for help here!

 

[wigwamitus]

... This about sums it up. Honestly, I think my wife would love a dual thermal setup. She's all about looking for critters. I wish there was a NV equivalent to the coti that could attach to a thermal to allow you to see lasers... that would probably be best of both worlds...

Well the COTI attached to 14 gives you both worlds ... (not necessarily the best of both worlds) ... but I would say PID out to 150yds fairly quickly, if you are an experience thermal user. Gives you thermal and laser in a fused image.
In outline mode, IF the 14 can see the critter, then PID can be faster. But might need to switch to patrol mode on COTI (one button push) to engage a moving critter.
For your wife, 14+COTI seems like the way to go. We happen to have a couple of LNIB for $2,500 each.

==

The Nox-18 is certainly a much better image

Here's a few Nox-18 pics from back in Nov

1x

2x

4x

8x

1x PID challenge

4x PID challenge

==
We can also help with helmet setups.