Got the AK itch, looking for some advice.

[bm11]

OK, I've decided it's time my collection needs an AK-47 variant. I do believe the AR-15 to be the superior weapon system, however, this is all about diversity.

I don't do anything half ass and don't really plan on doing that here either. I feel it's almost oxymoronic to say that I want a "high quality AK," but the fact of the matter is that I have been much less than impressed with the cheap ones that I have seen. I've been doing some research, and the options are almost limitless, hence this thread.

The two main models I'm considering are the Arsenal SA M7 and the Arsenal SLR-107FR. I'm leaning toward the SLR-107FR because it is about a pound lighter, and it is less expensive. I don't mind paying more if I'm getting something better, but I have not been able to find any quantifiable benefits to a milled receiver AK other than that "they are really nice," which is subjective.

The other rifle I was considering was a PolyTech Legend, becuase they are a full "pre ban" import with no US made parts mixed in. I have backed away from this idea for the most part because of the prohibitive price. $3k for an AK just seems wrong in so many ways.

Whatever gun I end up with will most likely end up with an optic of some sort. Maybe one of the new AK ACOG TA33's, if not that than probably a T1 micro. The irons on an AK are just so tough to shoot well that I don't see myself NOT putting an optic on.

Basically I'm looking for any input any of you might have. I want a 7.62 gun, not a 5.45 and DEFINITELY not a 5.56 (half the idea for this is to be able to run less expensive ammo.) Also, pics are encouraged.

Thanks in advance,

-Bob

 

[USMC_03XX]

If you want the best have Jim Fuller of Rifle Dynamics spin you up one. Krebs is up there as well.

 

[bm11]

If you want the best have Jim Fuller of Rifle Dynamics spin you up one. Krebs is up there as well.

Thought about it, but in the end I don't dig wait times. I'll only buy an in stock gun.

 

[Fatorangecat]

There really is no benefit to a milled receiver and in my opinion makes an already heavy weapon heavier. Some people argue that the milled receiver is more rigid and hypothetically more accurate. If your wanting an accurate semi the AK is not it. That is not to say the AK is not a fine rifle though for what it is.

I have also had a few "Gucci" AKs including Rifle Dynamics. It is simply not worth the exorbitant price and ridiculous wait time. I waited close to two years for an AK from a big name builder and in the end it was the prettiest subpar shooter you have ever seen.

I would pick up an Arsenal SGL and have it refinished. Drop in a G2 trigger, Krebs retainer plate, and install an Ultimak rail. The T1 is king with the AK. Absolute cowitness in a very durable lightweight package. I would also pick up an Arsenal sooner than later. I have heard the economic sanctions against Russia are going to dry up the AK world.

 

[Fatorangecat]

I forgot...two biggest things you can do to get a touch more accuracy out of an AK. Throw away the cleaning rod. It whip against the barrel when firing. Replace the muzzle device with a Smith Vortex flash hider. By design it eliminates the detent traditionally used on AKs and will torque down tight.

 

[Cranedaddy]

Honestly a AK is a AK IMO, the only difference is the name on the side. When you pay more for one, you're not getting a better shooter or a more reliable gun, you're getting a prettier gun, that's about it.

 

[bm11]

There really is no benefit to a milled receiver and in my opinion makes an already heavy weapon heavier. Some people argue that the milled receiver is more rigid and hypothetically more accurate. If your wanting an accurate semi the AK is not it. That is not to say the AK is not a fine rifle though for what it is.

I have also had a few "Gucci" AKs including Rifle Dynamics. It is simply not worth the exorbitant price and ridiculous wait time. I waited close to two years for an AK from a big name builder and in the end it was the prettiest subpar shooter you have ever seen.

I would pick up an Arsenal SGL and have it refinished. Drop in a G2 trigger, Krebs retainer plate, and install an Ultimak rail. The T1 is king with the AK. Absolute cowitness in a very durable lightweight package. I would also pick up an Arsenal sooner than later. I have heard the economic sanctions against Russia are going to dry up the AK world.

Fantastic, thanks for validating my plan. I'll look into the Krebs retainer plate, I was already planning on the G2 trigger. And looking into it, it does appear that the Ultimak rail is a better solution than the TWS dogleg, and that going with an ACOG would be too much of a pain due to sight height.

Honestly a AK is a AK IMO, the only difference is the name on the side. When you pay more for one, you're not getting a better shooter or a more reliable gun, you're getting a prettier gun, that's about it.

I hope that to an extent, that you are wrong. My only experience with AK's have been with low price WASR-10's my buddies own. It's a common joke when we shoot together, as my SR-15 Mod1 as well as my 10.5" full auto Noveske have literally never had a failure in thousands of rounds, but I bet those AK's choke up once every 60 or so rounds. I've seen soft points get wedged onto the feed ramp, I've seen rounds jam on the way into the chamber, I've seen the gun fail to pick the next round up in the mag, and I've seen all sorts of drum related failures as well. I had assumed that the issues were due to low quality examples of AK's, and that the legend for reliability had to be at least somewhat true with better guns. Hence my reason for looking at an Arsenal and not a Century.

 

[BravoSector1]

The Arsenal 107s (7.62x39) or the 106s (5.56x45) are great AKs. Don't rule out the 106. A beautiful Bulgarian that runs like a sewing machine. Chrome lined, hammer forged, 1/8 twist barrel with a decent trigger (for an AK) from the factory. The circle 10 smoked mags are a work of art.

 

[buffalowinter]

Cheap and fun

These start at $399 and are fun to shoot and easy to customize, Yugo PAP M92

 

[KYbulldog]

Why spend the money now? Just wait for the invasion and then take one (or two) off the guys you smoke with your 6.8. (or AR10), they won't need it any more and you just saved yourself a ton and maybe you'll get lucky and it will already be select fire. What don't have a 6.8? I can help you there.
http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...-8spc-rock-river-mags-ammo-1xfired-brass.html
Granted the ammo isn't as cheap BUT accuracy is better and it's basically an AR15 with 7.62x39 ballistics.

 

[Fatorangecat]

I had one early WASR that shot really well and was nicely built. With that being the exception the Century guns are junk. Arsenal is the way to go. comparing an Arsenal to a Century is apples to oranges.

I like the Izhmash guns but some people consider the Bulgarian Arsenals to be a touch better quality. The Bulgarian Circle 10 mags are hands down the best mag available.

 

[Mike_Honcho]

Honestly a AK is a AK IMO, the only difference is the name on the side. When you pay more for one, you're not getting a better shooter or a more reliable gun, you're getting a prettier gun, that's about it.

In general I agree - esp if one is just going to feed it the cheapest steel cased crap they can find. My SAR1 has a slight cant and had trigger slap until I replaced it with a Tapco. That said, it runs like an AK should. I bought it when it was like $220. I have a really hard time seeing the value in a $1k AK. IMHO a beater that runs, bunch of steel mags - for as little as you can. Put your $ into either a Utilimak or a Mid West Industries Rail and an Aimpoint T1 + a white light + VTAC sling and lots of ammo.

 

[smokin.338]

Buy a VEPR and customize as you see fit... still come out a couple of hundred ahead. Also look at the Sig 556R...

 

[ORD]

I have run a variety of Arsenal AKs over the years and have always found them to be at or very near the top of the food chain for production-quality AK variants (eliminating all the "custom" shop AKs of course). The fit/finish/component quality and overall value of the Arsenals is just tough to beat even though prices have continued to creep up somewhat on them over the years.

I would ABSOLUTELY NOT opt for the more costly milled receiver option. Yes, they are arguably stronger, more rigid, and thus, more "accurate" (cough, cough...) rifles, but I have observed nearly ZERO functional differences between a quality milled and a quality stamped steel receiver AK. Hell, my 106FR is as accurate with quality ammo as your average off-the-rack Colt 6920 which is MORE than sufficient for any AK variant out there. The 107FR you are considering should be no different a shooter assuming quality ammo and a decent trigger upgrade (hard for any dedicated precision rifleman to accept most of the garbage AK triggers on the market). Follow the excellent advice from Fatorangecat above and I think you'll be a happy camper at the end of the day.

 

[BCP]

The Yugos are the best deal going provided you inspect it first. They have better QC than the romanians but it's still an AK and some 'friday' builds with cooked sights/barrels/bad rivets do leave the factory. Saigas are nice too, I'd say the VEPRs are better though. Arsenals I like but they just don't feel like 900 dollar rifles to me, nevermind the ones I've seen for 1200-1400.

Polytech are nothing special but not bad either. The ones that aren't crazy priced are sporter style but you can usually put AK furniture on them depending on receiver design.

 

[elfster1234]

if you want the best of the best, its going to be a milled receiver arsenal brand... I had a milled arsenal and I sold it... im kicking myself for doing so and will get a new milled receiver arsenal one of these days.

 

[Drifter™]

Polytech Legend

Reportedly made in Chinese factory right alongside the full-auto AK's, and imported as a complete rifle and not a parts kit.

Usually one or more on gunbroker. Look for a previously fired rifle to save some money, especially if you plan to shoot it occasionally. (New ones can be somewhat pricey.)

 

[Oklahoma5-0]

I agree on Arsenal. I own a SAM 7SF. Yes, she was pricy however I am pleased to report over 800 rounds of cheap steel cased ammo with ZERO malfunctions. Worth it to me since I did own a WASR 10 years back and it was pretty much junk. Just my 2 cents.

 

[Armed Ferret]

I built all mine, but if you're looking to just buy one (probably a far better option now as parts kits are no longer 89 bucks) go Arsenal.

Just get one with a sidefolder. It's more halal.

 

[bm11]

Ok. Arsenal it is!

 

[WildBill3/75]

Arsenal and call it a day.

 

[bm11]

Ok, Arsenal it is. I need to buy mags, and there are as many options on mags as there are on AK's. Who makes the best ones?

 

[WildBill3/75]

All the steel surplus ones I've ever used have worked flawlessly.

 

[Gunga]

The Yugoslavian made Zastava PAP series of AK47 rifles seem like a good deal for the money. Just my opinion, but with an AK47 you be get reasonable accuracy for 200 to 300 yard shooting in a reliable and rugged battle rifle. I don't think anyone expects to reach out accurately to 800 yards with an AK variant.
Aren't the Zastava series AK's just as reliable and durable as any AK variant ? and they retail for less than $600. I don't understand what you gain by paying extra money for a different brand. I've seen AK variants advertised for over $1,000 and don't understand the logic.

I don't work for any gun dealer and don't have a dog in this brand fight. Just looking for insight.

 

[ORD]

Ok, Arsenal it is. I need to buy mags, and there are as many options on mags as there are on AK's. Who makes the best ones?

The Bulgy/Circle 10 Waffle mags work flawlessly for poly mags, as do the quality steel surplus mags I have run, including Bulgy, Romanian, Russian, Chinese, etc.

Save the new Magpul AK mag offerings which show a LOT of promise, all of the US-made AK mags (ProMag, Tapco, etc.) are just pure EXCREMENT!! STAY AWAY!!!!

 

[samnev]

I owned a Poly Tech Legend, Arsenal SAM 7 and a Valmet 62. As well as other Poly Tech's, Norinco, Clayco, Mitchell and CAI Yugo M70. The only one that shot accurately < 2" groups @ 100 yards with Lapua ammunition was the Valmet 62 which I am sorry I sold. All the rest shot pretty much the same including the Arsenal's although they were probably the most accurate with the CAI Yugo M70 a very close 2nd. All are gone now except the Arsenal 106FR any the Yugo M70.

 

[Fatorangecat]

Bulgarian Circle 10 mags are the absolute best polymer mag available. East German metal mags are my favorite metal mag. They are hard to find but are really well made. After that any combloc surplus mag. Avoid the new production metal mags they are just a cheap copy of surplus mags.

 

[BravoSector1]

MAGPUL now makes a 30 round AK mag. The next Gen up is a steel reinforced mag offered by them. Can't go wrong with the Bulgarian Circle 10s or the MAGPULs.

 

[bm11]

One other thought to bounce off you guys- say I also bought a Zastava PAP pistol and filed the form 1 for it, and had both the Arsenal and it, seems like a decent idea, yeah? I read real good things about the Zastava pistols, and a guy locally has the. For $449. Seems like it would be a cool build.

 

[Fatorangecat]

Being a pistol they are not subject to the same 922 compliance. They are 100% Yugo built. I think they are a great route to an SBR AK. They are really the only Century import I would have because Century doesn't chew them up cutting mag wells and adding compliance parts. They import them as they are. Just keep in mind whoever does your stock will want to add compliance parts.

 

[bm11]

I'm going to go look today. I understand the newer ones have the serial moved forward to allow the under folder assembly to be installed without obscuring the serial. If I go under folder, I'd pay to have someone do it, and I'd install american made compliance parts. If I don't go under folder, I'd do one of the usmachinegun adapters/folding stocks and do it myself.

 

[Fatorangecat]

The under folder conversion is not hard. Any competent AK armorer can do it.

 

[Redneck 38]

I never expected any real accuracy from it, but several yrs ago, had a $250 WASR-10 that surprised me. I shot up a couple of the Chinese 550 rd tuna cans of corrosive copper washed ammo. Would shoot 2 moa at 100 yds all day with no failures to cycle. The rifle was cobby, but all the working parts were chrome lined or plated. The best mags I had were 30 rd Polytechs with chromeplated followers. I had a drum, but never used it.

For accuracy, I liked the suggestion to set up an AR-15 with a quality 6.8 SPC barrel. The Remington ammo is hotter, but the Hornady works too. Both are non-corrosive boxer primed and capable of consistent moa accuracy in the right rifle.

Tom

 

[bm11]

New plan (ish.) I think I'm going to buy just the PAP pistol, submit the SBR paperwork, and run a SB-47 "arm brace" until the paperwork clears. Originally I was going to buy an Arsenal AND the PAP, and shoot the Arsenal until the PAP SBR paperwork cleared, but if the arm brace makes it shoot able, than I don't really need two AK's.

 

[Coltster]

If you can get one without a crazy wait time I highly recommend Krebs, mine runs great with or without SDN6!

 

[Infringed711]

How has no one brought up the OPAPs...great little guns for the money. I've owned arsenals, century guns, and built my own and for the money it's hard to beat an OPAP. I'm not sure if they're still bringing them in but they were something like $450+tax/shipping when I picked mine up. If not the OPAP then I'd reccomend you build your own, fairly easy process and it will give you a whole new respect for how simple AKs really are. Arsenals are overrated and waaaay overpriced IMHO.

 

[Armed Ferret]

feel free to post photos of all the "overrated" arsenals you've owned/used to form that opinion.


he wasn't asking about a "good one for the money", he wanted to know what some of the best out-of-the-box ones were without going full retard on a custom job like a Krebs or similar. right now, that's the arsenal line.

and someone who has NO ak experience, and is only looking for one, is not very well-served by being told they should build one, especially if they don't have access to all the specialized tooling necessary to do so, or the refinishing equipment. By the time one purchases all the tooling, and then on top of that either purchases the refinishing tools or pays for a pro job, one has already FAR surpassed the price of the majority of the arsenal line-up.

5 years ago, i'd have shouted from the rooftops he should build. since kits are now nearly as much as complete guns, and DON'T come with CHF chrome-lined barrels anymore, that's not the optimal choice for a first-time or only-one-rifle person.

 

[Infringed711]

Here are my old arsenals one is 7.62x39 the other is 5.45...go fuck yourself

Out of the box OPAPs are a great gun, did everything that my arsenals did at less than half the cost

I had very little ak experience when I built my first one, I went to a build party and didn't have to buy tools. Got a great rifle and learned a lot. You also can still find full kits w/original barrels if you look for them, I picked up a rommy g kit last year for $240

 

[Armed Ferret]

Oh you're definitely correct about finding full kits with original barrels. Current market price on those is $650 and up. Maybe stop providing bad advice about how building an AK is easy and cheap, kthx.

The tooling for building off a complete receiver:

12-ton (or 20-ton) hydraulic press
Rivet jig
Barrel press kit
Trigger guard rivet jig
Rivet locating jig

All that equates to well over $500. One would be looking at an initial investment of 700-800 per if they were going to build 2 AK's. And that's erring on the cheap side.

That's awesome you found a build party and used someone else's tools. Not everyone may have that opportunity.

Nice to see you letting your true colors show with your loss of temper and use of profanity in an attempt (as ineffective as it was, sadly) to insult me. You've certainly proven that you're the better man by doing so. Any other blatant displays of professionalism you'd care to share with us while you're at it?

 

[Infringed711]

A build party is still something he could look into, he will never know if it's an option if he doesn't know they exist in the first place. Building AKs is easy and cheap if you take the time to look for parts. There were some polish it's floating around awhile back in the $200 area ($300 w/us barrel), I've seen a few rommy g kits with original barrels in the past few months that were in the $300 range.

As for the actual build, it's pretty easy. Not quite as easy as an AR but still not too challenging, basically bending a piece of sheet metal, a little welding, and some riveting.

If he can find a build party in his area then great, if not or he's not interested in building one there are still plenty of quality AKs out there that will do the same thing for less money. Hell he could even do a saiga conversion

 

[cal50]

Get a SIG 556R if you want a real rifle in the 7.62 X 39 flavor.

I had an Arsenal SAM-7 which was an excellent AK but it was still an AK ( crappy trigger, crude sights and short radius, so-so accuracy , and crappy ergonomics if you are taller than 5' ). I sold it and picked up a SIG 556R.
IF you get a Sig make sure you get a current production gun or a 2nd generation rifle because the initial rifle had multiple issues. I had an original 1st generation gun that went back to Sig three different times and they ended up replacing it with a new production rifle.

The SIG had MUCH better ergonomics for an adult, folding stock, better sight option ( whatever you want ), trigger and is WAY more accurate than any AK I have fired or owned. There is a new 556 XI that is modular if you want or need those option but the 556R suits me fine. I have a 556 SWAT in .223 and the 556R in the same configuration.

 

[bm11]

I bought a Zastava PAP, and the SBR paperwork will be sent within the week. Shot it today, 220 rounds, no issues.

 

[Infringed711]

Nice! Congrats

 

[bm11]

Cheaper than I expected to pay, but by the time I pay for the stamp, the stock, the break, etc, I'll be into it for Arsenal money. I like the idea that being a pistol, it isn't a conversion. I may (probably) still buy a full size Arsenal gun in the (near) future.

 

[ORD]

I'd call that well-bought!! Look forward to seeing your conversion once you get your paperwork back in hand.

 

[elfster1234]

Arsenal SAM7R Semi-Auto Rifle 7.62x39mm 10 Round- Matte Black

 

[bm11]

I felt bad not heeding the advice of all the good Snipers Hide members, so I picked up an Arsenal SAM7, with a Midwest Industries/ US Palm hanguard and co-witness T1 setup. Haven't shot it yet, but it appears to be a real nice setup.

 

[Metal Gear]

Nice buy with both the Arsenal SAM7 and the Zastava PAP M92. That MI and Aimpoint co witness setup handguard is top notch too, I have a similar setup only mine has an MI top cover specific for the Burris Fast Fire 2. Would you happen to know what kind of muzzle brake that is on the Arsenal?

I have been on the fence about picking up a M92 myself for an SBR project. Keep us updated on the build, I myself am a lover of both AR and AK rifles and enjoy seeing builds and plans of both come together. By the way, you will need to cut the weld and remove that muzzle attachement off the M92 and put a decent brake on it to control that fire breathing beast lol.

 

[bm11]

Nice buy with both the Arsenal SAM7 and the Zastava PAP M92. That MI and Aimpoint co witness setup handguard is top notch too, I have a similar setup only mine has an MI top cover specific for the Burris Fast Fire 2. Would you happen to know what kind of muzzle brake that is on the Arsenal?

I have been on the fence about picking up a M92 myself for an SBR project. Keep us updated on the build, I myself am a lover of both AR and AK rifles and enjoy seeing builds and plans of both come together. By the way, you will need to cut the weld and remove that muzzle attachement off the M92 and put a decent brake on it to control that fire breathing beast lol.

Ha, thanks! I'm making progress on the PAP as well. I put an "arm brace" on it, and it is definitely an improvement. It'll get me by until I get the stamp. A couple pics:

 

[Metal Gear]

Very nice! You really have wasted no time getting some modifications done to it. I have never used one of those "arm braces", and being a fairly lengthy guy I am questioning if I would be able to even somewhat comfortably shoulder it. A folding stock on the M92 would make for such a handy and small package, that is the route I would go anyway. What are you thinking in terms of a stock once the stamp comes in?