Hunting & Fishing Graphic Photo, 210 Bergers

[wnroscoe]

Several of the guys I know are having problems with the 210 Hunting Bergers this year and I just wanted to pass this along to those that may be using them as well. Every one of the guys is using the 300RUM and muzzle velocities from 3,100fps to 3,250fps. This deer has been shot four times with a 300RUM, still alive. It took a fifth shot to the head to kill her. The person that shot this deer is absolutely sick about the bullet performance and the deer going through this. The trauma you’re seeing in the photo is the exit.

I'm using the 180 Bergers with a muzzle velocity of 2,900fps out of my 7-300WSM and have had perfect bullet performance with each kill.

 

[MontanaMarine]

Re: Graphic Photo, 210 Bergers

Doesn't look like insufficient trauma. Where did the bullet that left that exit hole enter?

Any more details one where all the shots struck the deer, and where they exited?

Looks like one hit her in the left front knee.

 

[MontanaMarine]

Re: Graphic Photo, 210 Bergers

Looks to me like one grazed the top of the back, one hit the knee, one high shoulder hit that caused the huge exit.

I'm not seeing any bullet failure.

That train wreck reeks of shooter failure to me.

300 RUM pushing 210s is not an easy combo to shoot, especially if it was a sporterweight rifle.

 

[Onemoretime]

Re: Graphic Photo, 210 Bergers

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MontanaMarine</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Where did the bullet that left that exit hole enter?

</div></div>

I'd like to know as well.

 

[KAman9803]

Re: Graphic Photo, 210 Bergers

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MontanaMarine</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Looks to me like one grazed the top of the back, one hit the knee, one high shoulder hit that caused the huge exit.
</div></div>

Looks the same to me.

If that is the case then maybe your buddy needs to step down to something with a little less ass behind it, might be flinching a wee bit.

 

[wnroscoe]

Re: Graphic Photo, 210 Bergers

This guy is a client and hunting in another state, I'm in Louisiana. There's a local guy thats had simular issues. His bullets were blowing up on impact whether he hit the shoulder or ribs. I did see those deer personally. Granted the photo looks like one of the hits was a leg shot and maybe one high inthe back. It looks like the deer was floping around a bit after the hit. I asked about the exit in the picture, he said the entrance was slightly high at the back of the shoulder. With this level of trauma it's amazing that the deer was still alive.

I'll get more details later today after the hide comes off.

The rifle in question has a 27" LV Krieger Barrel with brake and all is Pillar Bedded in an A5 McMillan. Optics are NF mounted in NF Rings and NF base. The total weight all up is at 16Lbs. He's been shooting this rifle out to 700 yards and making consistent hits and good groups. He had a solid rest during the shot and used a laser Range finder to get the distance. Thats all I know as of now.

 

[esorensen]

Re: Graphic Photo, 210 Bergers

Tough to say what happened there. I looked at the picture before I read the caption and thought, man, that deer is still alive! I then saw the foreleg injury, the messed up fur on the back, and the GAPING exit hole. That is an injury that can be classified as not compatible with life. It would be a matter of time before it would succumb to the terminal effects. I don't want to see any animal needlessly suffer, it sucks when it does, but it unfortunately happens. I don't think there is any evidence of bullet failure per se. I had to shoot my antelope buck this year twice with a 210 Berger also. The first shot was my fault because I didn't think I needed to lead a walking critter at only 315 yards or so. The second shot was in the shoulder and it put him down hard. I also had an excellent exit that you can see next to my daughter's right foot/ankle.

The only thing I can think of is shot placement. I have used the VLD's for quite a while now and the performance as far as exterior ballistics and wound ballistics is concerned, is very consistent and repeatable, regardless of caliber and weight. I won't hesitate to use them. Best of luck, Eric

 

[Geno C.]

Re: Graphic Photo, 210 Bergers

That is not consistany with my experience this year. 300WSM 210 Berger 61.6grs R22 lists at 2691 fps out of a 26" tube and mine are coming out of a 31". Frontal shot to the brisket, at 37 yards, blew up one lung, liver and half the heart. Total distruction inside! Bullet never left the buck and was on the outside of the far ribs. But that is just my experience...

 

[wnroscoe]

Re: Graphic Photo, 210 Bergers

Just spoke with him again. Three body shots and spaced out about as far as your index, ring and middle fingers would be. All slightly above center and behind the shoulder. That might explain the large exit hole. The leg shot was a neck shot miss when trying to finish her off. He took a firm prop and fired the last shot to kill her.

He's sick to say the least. He's been practing using his laser and developing dope for the rifle.

 

[mdesign]

Re: Graphic Photo, 210 Bergers

Was he above her and the shot that hit in the middle of the back is the entrance hole and it exited out the shoulder where the hole is? That could explain how the vitals got missed.

Having a deer that is still alive after being shot 4 times with a large caliber weapon is usually a direct result of poor shooting and shot placement. A failed neck shot broke a leg.....Yes, I would be sick too. Watched a paying hunter with a high dollar 300WM do the same thing to a nice mulie once, he never set foot on the ranch again.

We shot several deer with 175 SMK this year and all the exits looked like the one in FFL pic. All of them were DRT, not even a twitch. Only ones that went any where were shot with TSX and they went about 10 yds.

 

[Centerfire1]

Re: Graphic Photo, 210 Bergers

All three shots were within a 2.5" inch group slightly high but right behind the shoulder. First shot...the deer dropped like a sack of rocks. Deer appeared dead so after about 5 minutes I looked back down there through the bino's and she had her head up. The buck got her to stand up so i put another right behind the shoulder and she tumbled over so in my mind I was thinking dang ...two shots....but finally got her. 100 yards out of my shooting house I realize that she's still moving around and actually sees me and jumps up and runs 100 yards and then lays down...At 377 I laid down on my stomach with bipod attached "she standing broadside again" and put another right behind the shoulder and she hits the ground again. Grabbed my stuff and walked up to her and unbelievably she raises her head. By this time I am without words....total dismay so three feet away and off hand i shoot at her neck and missed but clipped her foot. Next round was center through the neck. The 210 Bergers appeared to have done their job but she just wouldn't die...never seen anything like it. The buck had been chasing her all over the field which is 1200 yards long and 500 wide so maybe adrenaline...who knows. First two shots were at 504 with bipod and a rear bag...completely solid rest. I wouldn't have shot her any different at 20 yards...Totally unbelievable..

 

[shooter65]

Re: Graphic Photo, 210 Bergers

Nasty.

 

[Centerfire1]

Re: Graphic Photo, 210 Bergers

I shot this coyote with the same load at 154 yards with instant death..no kick or movement at all. Bullet appeared to have held together well and expanded well. This is the exit hole and the entrance appeared as if you had stuck a pencil in him.

 

[sinister]

Re: Graphic Photo, 210 Bergers

To kill a mammal you need to smash its electronics (the central nervous system) or let it bleed out -- which is what it looks like these bullets did.

Letting out the air or blood you still need to allow some time for the animal to die (exsanguinate/bleed out).

Ain't no magic arrow or bullet.

 

[JCH]

Re: Graphic Photo, 210 Bergers

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Centerfire1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">All three shots were within a 2.5" inch group slightly high but right behind the shoulder. First shot...the deer dropped like a sack of rocks. Deer appeared dead so after about 5 minutes I looked back down there through the bino's and she had her head up. The buck got her to stand up so i put another right behind the shoulder and she tumbled over so in my mind I was thinking dang ...two shots....but finally got her. 100 yards out of my shooting house I realize that she's still moving around and actually sees me and jumps up and runs 100 yards and then lays down...At 377 I laid down on my stomach with bipod attached "she standing broadside again" and put another right behind the shoulder and she hits the ground again. Grabbed my stuff and walked up to her and unbelievably she raises her head. By this time I am without words....total dismay so three feet away and off hand i shoot at her neck and missed but clipped her foot. Next round was center through the neck. The 210 Bergers appeared to have done their job but she just wouldn't die...never seen anything like it. The buck had been chasing her all over the field which is 1200 yards long and 500 wide so maybe adrenaline...who knows. First two shots were at 504 with bipod and a rear bag...completely solid rest. I wouldn't have shot her any different at 20 yards...Totally unbelievable..</div></div>

sounds like you did everything in your power to kill her cleanly...trauma from small arms fire is gruesome any way, the only thing i would let get to me would be if she had walked off into the brush like that. Either way, she was gonna expire.

 

[KHOOKS]

Re: Graphic Photo, 210 Bergers

I shot a doe Wednesday at about 5:10pm and she just didn't want to die either. The first round (30-30 150gr cor-lok at 70y) was boardside in the right shoulder. She ran about 50 yards out of my sight and fell. I thought I'd missed her but I didn't here her tear into the woods. I get down out of the stand and start walking to the food plot she had dropped just off the edge of the plot. She sees me coming and gets her back legs and hips up. I shoulder my rifle and she drops back to the ground. I'm looking thru the scope and can see her belly and chest and send another round in just below her ribs and above her belly heading from there up thru the shoulders. She now is not thrashing and trying to get up, I make it up to her and low and behold she goes back to flopping around. I take a step back and drop a .45 ACP 230GR gold dot to the base of her skull and it's all over lights out. I havn't killed alot of deer (3 is it) the first two I shot last year a doe and a four point. Both of these deer I was able to but the bullet right where I wanted it spine shots. One facing me right thru the front of the neck and the other right thur the top of the shoulder and into the spine. These two deer never made a step dropped in there tracks. The difference is I could see both of these deer and the one on Wednesday I could not make the fine lines on my scope had to take a safer shot at center of shoulder. It all goes back to taking out the central nervous system. But hell I'm happy I got meat in the freezer!

 

[rrflyer]

Re: Graphic Photo, 210 Bergers

well it doesn't look like that bullet blew up going in.

Sounds like an animal with a lot of fight. If it happens again and you get a good sold rest and sure shot....might try for a neck shot.

 

[orangebang72]

Re: Graphic Photo, 210 Bergers

I've seen a doe take two .40 caliber rounds in the head and it's throat cut. Deer are a lot tougher than people give them credit for. It's all about will to live.

 

[JRWALLSIII]

Re: Graphic Photo, 210 Bergers

I use 180 Bergers at 2860 and could not be happier.

 

[wnroscoe]

Re: Graphic Photo, 210 Bergers

I received photos of deer kill #2. Text book kill, great bullet performance.

 

[Centerfire1]

Re: Graphic Photo, 210 Bergers

I agree ....Shot Placement with the Bergers make all the difference. Shot two and three were without incident and immediate death without even as much as a kick. Exactly what I'm looking for. Instead of behind the shoulder, I centered the shoulder and with the crack of the gun they were both taking a dirt nap. Attached are both EXIT wounds..

 

[bachelorjack]

Re: Graphic Photo, 210 Bergers

only good hits count...

You know what really bothers me about this thread? Instead of ending this animal's suffering immediately, there was time to take a picture.

I'm disgusted.

 

[rrflyer]

Re: Graphic Photo, 210 Bergers

i think its dead in that picture aint it?

 

[wfjames22]

Re: Graphic Photo, 210 Bergers

I had the same thing happen last year on a doe with my 300WSM and a 150gr NBT. Dropped in its tracks with a massive exit wound that I could see at 175yds with my bare eyes from the stand. Never moved after the shot. When I got down 15 minutes later, she tried to get up and a quick shot to the neck ended it all. I didnt stop to take a pic of the original exit wound before putting her down though. Hard to believe what it takes to kill a 90lb W TN doe sometimes.

 

[HighCotton]

Re: Graphic Photo, 210 Bergers

Sometimes they are dead but still on there feet. Adrenaline??? I shot a doe at 75yds with 260 rem 120grn accutip. She ran 75 to 100yds in to thick brush and I heard her crash. Got down a few mins later. Found blood tracked her to the edge of woods where she went in. About that time I hear her thrashing in the leaves. When I dressed her I scooped out the chunks of what used to be her heart.

 

[nolo263]

Re: Graphic Photo, 210 Bergers

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wnroscoe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Several of the guys I know are having problems with the 210 Hunting Bergers this year and I just wanted to pass this along to those that may be using them as well. Every one of the guys is using the 300RUM and muzzle velocities from 3,100fps to 3,250fps. This deer has been shot four times with a 300RUM, still alive. It took a fifth shot to the head to kill her. The person that shot this deer is absolutely sick about the bullet performance and the deer going through this. The trauma you’re seeing in the photo is the exit.

I'm using the 180 Bergers with a muzzle velocity of 2,900fps out of my 7-300WSM and have had perfect bullet performance with each kill.

</div></div>

zombie deer???

 

[rm76]

Re: Graphic Photo, 210 Bergers

If one shoots enough deer (or any other game animal), eventually you will find one that defies the odds with what appears to be a good shot. However, there are voids in the kill zone that will not result in a quick kill. Hard to tell about the other shots but it appears the one hit was above the heart, forward of the aorta, and beneath the backbone. May also have been too high for adequate lung damage. Often bone fragments (from rib or shoulder) can cause lethal damage as well as they tumble through the chest cavity -- but by coincidence, they can miss vital tissue as well. Again, occassionally these things do happen with any bullet, but as you all know placement is as, or more, important than bullet type.

 

[Tip em over]

Re: Graphic Photo, 210 Bergers

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BachelorJack</div><div class="ubbcode-body">only good hits count...

You know what really bothers me about this thread? Instead of ending this animal's suffering immediately, there was time to take a picture.

I'm disgusted. </div></div>Very well said!!

 

[esorensen]

Re: Graphic Photo, 210 Bergers

I'm going to have to agree with this assessment.

 

[ejg]

Re: Graphic Photo, 210 Bergers

My guess to this is that the Berger just penciled through and expanded explosively in the last inches. I've seen this with VLD's and SMK's when shooting small game. Needed three 308 shots to put a fox down once with 155 SMK's.
Would possibly work very well on a larger beast.
I neck shoot often and therefore prefer quicker expansion on small deer. After comparing and using fox as testers I chose a-max or sst. But that is out of a slowish 308.
As I said just my guess.
edi