Graphite or wax for bullet seating?

[Wheres-Waldo]

Looking to incorporate a line into the seating process mainly because I clean with stainless media and anneal regularly. I’ve come to understand that this can lead to cold welding.

What would be the best “lube” to firstly prevent cold welding but also gain more consistency in seating pressure?

I would not like to change my cleaning and case prep routine, it’s working well for me.

Can graphite attract moisture like molybdenum? Can it damage the barrel? Will wax build up or cause barrel issues?

What have you used first hand inside the necks or on the bearing surface of bullets?

 

[MikeMcCasland]

I prefer the redding imperial dry neck lube, if only because it doesn't get kernels of powder stuck to it in the neck. I've never had an issue with moisture getting stuck to it either, but I'm typically lubing the neck ~1hr before seating bullets.

There are downsides...it can be a bit messy, and it can be somewhat inconsistent in how much lube is going on per case. I don't know how much that really matters though.

I also don't see much difference on target, nor on the chronograph, but it makes me feel better so I do it.

The one big tangible benefit is it makes pulling bullets MUCH easier, and you don't damage them (collet style puller). I don't know if it's truly a 'cold weld' but if you wet tumble and seat bullets, a day or so later those things are going to be damn near glued in there vs. how it feels with dry neck lube; happens to me even if I'm running ~.001 tension/interference fit.

Lastly, if you're worried about consistent seating pressures, drop the wet tumbling. Even after chamfering, multiple cycles of wet tumbling have shown growth on the case mouth, which result in inconsistent seating pressures (In my experience, and obviously this is a hotly contested issue).

My 2c.

 

[918v]

So chamfer the case mouth.

 

[ken4570tc in WY]

Hexagonal Boron Nitride HBN is cleaner material for bullet coating, also tungsten disulfide WS2 (Danzac) works better than moly.

 

[Westex6.5]

I use a KM arbor press with force pack, so I’m able to see the affects of seating pressure that you can’t see using a standard O press.

If your shooting bare bullets then the Imperial Dry Neck Lube will work. It will not contaminate your load but may require you to adjust neck tension. It’s safe to say that when your Not using any type of lube will result in damage to the jackets. I won’t preach on about the importance of carbon in the neck because you’ve already heard it.

Joe

 

[supercorndogs]

I just started messing around with the RCBS dry neck lube. I don't know if it makes my ammo better, but it works great in my OTF knife.

 

[ShtrRdy]

I use a KM arbor press with force pack, so I’m able to see the affects of seating pressure that you can’t see using a standard O press.

If your shooting bare bullets then the Imperial Dry Neck Lube will work. It will not contaminate your load but may require you to adjust neck tension. It’s safe to say that when your Not using any type of lube will result in damage to the jackets. I won’t preach on about the importance of carbon in the neck because you’ve already heard it.

Joe

I would like to hear your thoughts about carbon in the neck. Would you still use Imperial Dry Neck Lube on necks that have some carbon inside?

Thanks -- Todd

 

[Wheres-Waldo]

I clean my cases squeaky clean and anneal after every firing, which is a worst case scenario for inconsistent seating pressure, regardless of chamfer angle, etc.

Carbon will act as a lube to make seating across the board more consistent and prevent bullet weld I presume?

I would like to achieve two things here...

1. Make seating pressure as consistent as possible
2. Prevent bullet weld

Both in an effort to reduce ES/SD/Vertical spread

I may just order some graphite neck lube & dip the necks in before I charge the case, seat the bullet then wipe clean.

 

[Carlos Danger]

I'm glad someone started this thread. I tried seating with the dry graphite lube and was wondering if there were any adverse affects. I thought this up before I even wondered if anyone else was doing it. Only thing I did notice was a white residue on the inner case necks post firing.

 

[wapiti16b]

D Tubb uses HBN for a reason and his experience is vastly superior to mine , I use HBN on all my loads and I'm very pleased with its performance so far . I have seen no great varience in fps on loads over one year old vs one week old loads so far measured over my magnetospeed. I also use graphite ( Imperial dry neck lube ) as a more cost effective alternative for loads I plan on using within a few weeks and get good results as well. YMMV!

 

[Westex6.5]

@ShrtReady Yes and I do use dry lube on all my case necks. Even my 22 dasher which I use moly coated bullets. I dip a q tip in the media and run it inside the necks. I’ve found no negative effects using it on necks with carbon but what it does is cut down on the number of inconsistencies I find when seating bullets with the arbor press.

Just yesterday I was loading some virgin hydro formed 6 dasher brass with brand new shiny necks. I guess I skipped a few necks in the loading block and had hell seating those bullets. Something wouldn’t have noticed on my Big Boss press.

I personally achieve very consistent seating pressure in all my rounds and have zero issues with bullet weld. I know this because I measure it every time I seat a bullet and have pulled many rounds without issue. I hate case prep with a passion and will not skimp on the last part of a case that effects the bullet.

Joe

 

[Westex6.5]

@Wheres-Waldo the media is great but does make a mess in the dies. I dip a q-tip in and coat the inside of the necks that way. Exterior case wax/lube + dry lube= a mess!

 

[Wheres-Waldo]

I did my break-in & load development rounds last night, leaving the OAL at 2.900”

I’ll reseat at .01” off the lands once the barrel shows up at the FFL.

I did 90% of them with graphite
I did 15 rounds with a very light coat of Formax wax on the bearing surface.

If the wax lets me adjust seating depth and does as well as graphite, based on my use of both, the wax is much less of an ass-pain & I’ll continue to use it.

 

[MarinePMI]

Has anyone tried the aerosol graphite spray (for door hinges and locks) as way to apply graphite evenly to bullets? I'm thinking about trying it (got a can in the garage that I use for squeaky spring loaded hinges on the entrance doors to the house).

Just spit balling here, since I have tried the Imperial dry lube, and it tends to get everywhere and be inconsistent in application...

 

[Wheres-Waldo]

I think the spray stuff may layer it on so thick that it’s just as, if not more of a mess.

I saw some in Lowe’s yesterday, along with Teflon spray for locks. My issue is, that could contain all sorts of crap you may not want to introduce into your ammo/barrel.

 

[NW Valkyrie]

@Wheres-Waldo I use Imperial Dry Neck lube, but I also polish my necks first with steel wool.

Background:
Long time reloader, used Imperial wax for body and neck sizing with no issues. Then I tried wet cleaning for the first time with ultrasonic cleaner.

I love the lack of dust, clean primer pockets and no worries about media stuck in the case. But I noticed resizing brass, when the expander button pulled through the neck I was getting extreme resistance. It was like nails on the chalkboard chattering pulling the handle back up through the case. (note- this was on a hunting rifle that used a standard sizing die, so the neck was getting sized down a lot before hitting the button)

So I tried graphite, slathering the button in wax, polishing the button etc.... and nothing was helping. When I cleaned brass in dry media, no issue. But the wet cleaning resulted in squeaky clean necks and I was getting runout and inconsistent neck tension.

Was about to go back to dry media when I read a tip on 6mmbr. Someone posted a trick of taking a nylon cleaning brush and wrapping some fine steel wool around it (like #0000). Just a couple quick passes back and forth in the neck before sizing.

Completely solved the problem. Night and day difference in sizing and seating. No cold welding, rifle accuracy returned.

I stuck with the dry neck lube as powder doesn't stick to it. I polish necks, apply wax on body and use Dry neck lube for sizing.

It's one more step, but allows me to continue with my preferred cleaning method.

 

[918v]

Has anyone tried the aerosol graphite spray (for door hinges and locks) as way to apply graphite evenly to bullets? I'm thinking about trying it (got a can in the garage that I use for squeaky spring loaded hinges on the entrance doors to the house).

Just spit balling here, since I have tried the Imperial dry lube, and it tends to get everywhere and be inconsistent in application...

That’s cuz you’re doing it wrong

 

[918v]

Pour out a third, shake it real good, dip the cases in there several times, gtg.

 

[Snuby642]

Deprime, tumble.

Dry lube neck, sizing wax body when sizing , like butter. No chatter or sticking.

Tumble.

Dry lube neck when seating.

I dry tumble with wax for reference.

No problems found since started with this tedious method.

Messy and slow I admit.

 

[Wheres-Waldo]

NW, I concur with what you've said. The issues all arise from the brass being TOO CLEAN.

6mmBR.com talked about this years ago when they first did their ultrasonic article & I found the same when I messed around with ultrasonic myself.

For in home use, wet tumbling is WAY more practical & gives much better results than conventional tumbling or ultrasonic although it seems to have added extra steps for everyone.

I’ll report back on if the added 1.5 seconds of rubbing wax on the bullet bearing surface has any ill effects.

When loading virgin brass using the wax cited above, there was .004” neck tension and they all seated smooth as silk. I’ll let them sit 4-5 days and bump them down to their final seating depth.
If they bump down smooth, shoot well & the borescope doesn’t show anything alarming, that’s going to be my go-to from now on.

1. Decap
2. Wet rotary tumble
3. Dehydrator dry
4. Anneal
5. FL Size (no expander ball)
6. Prime
7. Charge
8. Seat

Been weighing weather or not to go ahead and buy a V3 Autotrickler to replace my Chargemaster Lite, as the CM is fast enough for me, and while I know the .02 gn accuracy is a benefit, I’m not sure it will ever show itself at the range.
15-20 FPS ES vs 8-10 FPS ES is literally barely over an INCH in vertical at 1K... negligible.

 

[MarinePMI]

That’s cuz you’re doing it wrong

Lol! You mean, like your snotty, rude posts?

For the record, I've done it like you describe, and still saw issues. But please, don't let me stop you from being a dick. Fucking douche....smh

 

[Snuby642]

I'm old school, but if you have better results with newer faster method's that is great !

If not go back and work your way up.
Seams some people have out ran conventional thinking, and wonder why thing don't work well.

That was being pc !

Real deal is fuck wet tumble !

 

[918v]

Lol! You mean, like your snotty, rude posts?

For the record, I've done it like you describe, and still saw issues. But please, don't let me stop you from being a dick. Fucking douche....smh

Talk about overreacting!

 

[918v]

You are the only one issues

 

[jtake]

I use mica rather than graphite. I purchased a ton real cheap off of ebay.

Filled a small container that I can shake to loosed up the powder, dip a case neck in, tap to drop the powder in the case neck, rinse and repeat 50x. Then, using a rag, wipe the outside of the cases otherwise I get mica buildup in my seating dies.

 

[John Glidewell]

try a car wash with wax in the rinse. I use warm water and a couple ounces of Meguiars with wax. puts a light coat of wax on case, keeps it from tarnishing and acts as a lubricant in neck wall.

 

[Wheres-Waldo]

I bumped 150 cases back yesterday evening that have been sitting for 7 days.

.020” additional depth

Originally loaded with a bit of Formax on the bearing surface.

Zero issues, they all seated smoothly.
I pulled one to inspect for any kind of reaction or powder sticking... nothing to speak of.

 

[OLD308]

Place bullets in freezer bag. Shot a bit of spray lube, your choice on brand. Apply way less then you think. Shake well. Pull bullet out of bag. Bullets should only vaguely feel as if there is something on them. If they feel wet you used to much. Seat bullet. I don’t know about cold welding over time, but this method provides consistent seating pressure for me. Hope this helps.

 

[Wheres-Waldo]

Old, we’re pretty much doing the same thing, I just put a light coat on my fingertips and apply to each bullet as I seat it.

 

[OLD308]

Cool deal. I tried all the other methods. They were either to slow or messy. This works for me and my application. Don’t know if it is worthy of universal acceptance.

 

[Wheres-Waldo]

Have you noticed any build up in the throat or lower velocity compared to no lube?

 

[OLD308]

Nope. I spray one shot in a quart size freezer bag with 100 bullets in it. Shake, role, through in the air and dance, what ever just making sure they all role around in there. It’s surprising how little it takes. Way smother than my carbide expander mandrel.

 

[OzzyO20]

I went down this road when I was considering having someone else anneal my brass. They wanted to wet tumble the brass beforehand, and I have heard negative input about 6.5 CM brass and steel media peening the necks. So I ended up just buying a Benchsource annealer and ordering a RCBS ultrasonic cleaner. The brass came out looking insanely good ( little dry tumble before to knock off the bigger carbon bits, then ultrasonic). Then I started reading on cold welding and leaving ammo stored, etc. So I got some of the Imperial dry neck lube and applicator and went with that for a while. It worked well, and aside from never knowing consistently how much dry lube I was applying I had no issues with it.

Then one day I just got fed up with all the extra work, and started tumbling again with corn cob and a little polish wax, and annealing with carbon in the neck (what I was told would 'ruin' a case by baking on carbon). I've noticed zero difference what so ever in the wet method with all the extra steps vs dry tumbling with corncob. In fact, I had 43 rounds left over from a match a few week ago that I fired this past Saturday that had set for two full weeks. 1.7 SD and 4 ES. I know that was more of the stars lining up and weather being perfect, but even when I first loaded the 100 rounds before the match it was like 4.3 SD 9 ES the day before the match.

I now use the dry lube when I'm running my mandrel in the case necks after FL sizing. I also leave the primers in when I tumble, and just decap them when I FL size and hit them with a steel brush set up on my case prep center while I'm chamfering and deburring. Ultrasonic cleaner is still nice for AR bolts, glock parts, etc. but I wont be throwing any brass back in it.

All the extra prep work never translated to anything on paper or in match results for me. Dry tumble and go on, just make sure to wipe the dust off the cases before you size them.

 

[Snuby642]

What dust are we wiping ?

 

[Wheres-Waldo]

My only reservation with conventional tumbling is that I reload in an apartment, so it’s too noisy.

I have kids in the house, and it creates dust in the air.

Wet tumbling is quieter, quicker, cleaner, leaves brass cleaner. I 100% agree that it causes other issues that have to be dealt with, but for me, it’s the best option I believe.

 

[spife7980]

What dust are we wiping ?

The dust from tumbling.
I dont wipe before sizing myself.

My only reservation with conventional tumbling is that I reload in an apartment, so it’s too noisy.

I have kids in the house, and it creates dust in the air.

Wet tumbling is quieter, quicker, cleaner, leaves brass cleaner. I 100% agree that it causes other issues that have to be dealt with, but for me, it’s the best option I believe.

It is loud but I just put in in the bathroom and close the door, cant hear it in the rest of the house. Get a solid lid that doesnt leave the inside of the container open to the rest of the world to keep that dust sealed in. A dryer sheet will collect some of that dust as well.

 

[Snuby642]

Used dryer sheet , nufinish car wax and a little mineral spirits cuts dust problem out.

The noise, cant help with that.
Supprised you can here a tumbler over the kids. Lol

 

[Swamppy]

try a car wash with wax in the rinse. I use warm water and a couple ounces of Meguiars with wax. puts a light coat of wax on case, keeps it from tarnishing and acts as a lubricant in neck wall.

ive been doing this for about a year works great

 

[OzzyO20]

Used dryer sheet , nufinish car wax and a little mineral spirits cuts dust problem out.

The noise, cant help with that.
Supprised you can here a tumbler over the kids. Lol

I'll try the dryer sheet and mineral spirits. Just a cap full?

 

[Snuby642]

If brass is really dirty 1-1 on wax to mineral spirits. 2 wax to 1 spirits if clean brass. Mix it in a condiment squirt bottle and turn on tumbler with media first. Run 2-3 full around squirts and let tumbler run about 5 minutes to distribute and break up clumps.

Put brass and sheet in then.

Clumps that wont go away is not enough spirits mixed in, house smelling like spirits is too much of that.

 

[Rhed]

I dip the bt’s In Redding graphite. Also SS wet tumble my brass. And since I put neck tension of 2 thousandths, I found it a must to put some kind of lube on before seating. Did some experimenting on 10 loads. 5 with dry lube, 5 without. The first 5 with lube, runout was any where from 0-1 thousandths. And the other 5, 3-4 thou. Well, one those was around 2 thou. Though, the ones with more runout, I didn’t see an difference on paper. With the ones that hardly had runout. So don’t take my word for it. Others might have different results.

 

[ALShooter]

I dip the bt’s In Redding graphite. Also SS wet tumble my brass. And since I put neck tension of 2 thousandths, I found it a must to put some kind of lube on before seating. Did some experimenting on 10 loads. 5 with dry lube, 5 without. The first 5 with lube, runout was any where from 0-1 thousandths. And the other 5, 3-4 thou. Well, one those was around 2 thou. Though, the ones with more runout, I didn’t see an difference on paper. With the ones that hardly had runout. So don’t take my word for it. Others might have different results.

I do the same and can nail seating depth to the thousandth boringly accurate over many rounds. Started doing it when I had seating depth issues with 300WM and 200+gr bullets.

 

[Cerwinski]

I still use the old-school tumbler method with corn cob and walnut. Gets my cases clean enough and the little bit of dust I leave in the neck serves as a lube of sorts (at least in my mind).

 

[Wheres-Waldo]

About a 1/2 dozen ways to skin this cat,
essentially, if you SS tumble, you need to use some sort of lube to seat bullets, and you’d be best served to lube the inside of necks during sizing if you size after cleaning.

Conventional tumbling... lube if you want, you’re much less likely to NEED to lube.

 

[flashhole]

I removed the #9 lead shot from two 12 ga shotgun shells and put it in a small plastic container (looks like a liquor shot glass) then added a good amount of fine powdered graphite. I plunge the case necks into the shot a couple 3 times and get a nicely lubed neck.

As to cleaning brass - hot water and dishwashing detergent does a great job on de-primed brass, even ones with really sooty necks. I mix it around with my hand until I like what I see. I hot rinse and add a pinch of powdered citric acid, let it sit for 5 minutes then hot rinse again. Brass is always clean and shiny with very little effort.