Gunsmithing Grizzly G0509G

[Kebo57]

I've almost got the cash saved for a new lathe and am considering the Grizzly G0509G 16 X 40. I'd like to match it with a VFD instead of a phase converter. Any of you guys running the same or similar set up with a VFD?

Thanks

 

[jake6547]

Assuming you are talking about using A variable frequency drive for the spindle motor? Or using a vfd to convert from single to 3 phase?

 

[Kebo57]

single to three phase

 

[jonaddis84]

I don't believe there are any big enough that are designed exclusively for single phase in. Which means you'll need to derate a normal 3ph in drive. Find the motor amperage and double it for the drive rating.

Call vfds.com they have been helping me out, are very good to talk to.

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[Red_SC]

You can use a VFD for that. I'm using a Hitachi on my 3hp South Bend, which is the limit for most VFDs before needing to be derated (oversized), but I'm fairly sure I saw at least one 5hp vFD in my research that was rated for single phase. Or, just buy an oversized VFD. The reason for this is that each 'hot' leg on the input circuit has to work harder when converting single to 3 phase, as you have 2 hots coming in and 3 going out. On the small VFDs the components are cheap enough that they just automatically oversize them in most VFDs up to 3hp.

Also, I read a couple places that you could undersize the VFD as long as you didn't exceed it's capacity- for instance, you could run a 4hp motor on a 3hp VFD as long as you never took a cut that required more than 3hp of power. I have no idea of the accuracy of that though, but it does make sense in my head. If you do exceed the rated amount, they trip rather than letting the magic smoke out.

 

[Kebo57]

Jon and Red..........many thanks for the info. Its nice to ask a question here and get useful feedback vs. the too often sarcasm and BS. I talked with the guys at VFDs.com and they were very patient and very helpful. The single to 3 phase system is a viable alternate to a phase converter plus you gain variable speed capability if I understand correctly. Those of you wanting to run 3 phase equipment ought to give VFDs a look. Cost for a VFD to run a 4-5 HP motor is about the same as a quality rotary converter ($2000).

 

[xringaccuracy]

A little off topic but you love that macheen

 

[skeetlee]

I can promise you one thing, a vfd for that lathe will be extremely expensive, compared to a roto phase set up. I have that lathe and I like mine very much. my roto phase cost me 300 bucks, motor and all. divide that by two, because I run my mill on the same unit. cheap!! The lathe you want is two speed, and it will have to be rewired. you will have the cost of the vfd unit, and the cost of a very good electrician. I checked into all of this before I bought mine. I will say, a VFD would be a very nice unit. Just comes down to what you want to spend. There are a plethora of 15HP 3 phase motors out there for next to nothing. I got mine for free. The fella was glad to get it out of his shop. Actually I got two identical motors for free. Good luck brother, you will enjoy the lathe. Lee

 

[missed]

Actually Baldor/abb 7.5hp drive that can run a 5hp motor is $935.67.... I got one a few months ago for my old monarch. Give control concepts in Dallas a call. You can run bigger motors too. My irrigation pivot has a 75hp drive running a 50hp motor with a single phase 480v input

Also what was said about under sized drives the start up current is brutal on the output scr's and you will not have the low end torque. You can get pretty much any size single phase input vfd. There just needs to be program adjustments like phase loss protection disable, and the de rating factor. The drives just take ac convert to DC then convert to ac so it doesn't give a crap how many input phases it has. The input side just needs to have the capacity to handle the lost phase.

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[Kebo57]

Lee....I'm a gunsmith...not an electrician! What re-wiring of the motor would be needed? I assume you're talking about making a home made phase converter out of the electric motor? Again...I get lost past " plug it into the wall socket". The store bought phase converter Grizzly mates with this lathe in a little more than the VFD I priced out with VFDs.com.

Everyone that has chimed in....many thanks for the good info

 

[jonaddis84]

Forget the grizzle rotary, look on Ebay at the American Rotary converters if you are going to go Rotary. You can get a 10 or 15hp for it for far less than the $2k I saw above.

 

[MikeeBooshay]

Look on craigslist or your local greensheet type paper for a used rotary, you can use it to power your mill, grinder or whatever.

I've got a 10 HP rotary for the 0509 I have, plus a 7.5 for the Hardinge, I don't have $2k in them together, both bought used. Both these units have other equipment wired into them thru seperate breaker boxes. The 0509, gives that 10HP all it wants, especially with frequent stop/start cycles, it is a 4 HP motor, my master electrician that installed it, predicted the occasional trip on startup. He was right, not often, but every now and then. Can not imagine a VFD standing up as well in that service, it's a pretty big startup current rush.

 

[Red_SC]

Can not imagine a VFD standing up as well in that service, it's a pretty big startup current rush.

VFD's don't have the same type of startup current, they use 'soft start' and use a ramp-up to get the machine started. I think I have mine set to ramp up over around 3 seconds, but you could set it to 5 or 10 if you really wanted to reduce the spike. They can do the same on shutdown, or use DC braking to stop it almost instantly.

I have $300 shipped in my 3HP VFD, I could have gone cheaper but the Hitachi WJ200 has a great reputation and I prefer quality over saving a very small amount of money. I originally looked at a rotary converter, but the buy-in was a lot higher and I couldn't find one of the nearly-free idler motors that everyone else seems to have access to. I'm using the one VFD on my 3hp lathe and 1.5hp mill right now, but plan to add a second one so I don't have to swap back and forth. The rotary would have been a great option too but it was significantly more expensive and less efficient.

 

[missed]

I'm in the same boat I have one drive running three machines. All three go back to one plc and I have to flip a switch to run each one. Beat the heck out of buying 3 drives. The vfd technology is so good now I could never even think about a converter.

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[jonaddis84]

You guys with 3hp and less motors dont forget you are in a totally different league. 3hp is as big as the inexpensive Hitachi VFD that is DESIGNED for what we are all trying to do here, take single phase in and make 3 phase out of it.

All other drives are designed to have 3 phase coming in, and are used as a motor controller. Now, they are flexible in the fact that you can input single phase, but you have to derate it by at least 33%, usually 50%. This means that instead of buying a nice cheap 3hp drive, you have to buy a 8-10hp for a 4-5hp motor. Now you are in a price range of $700-1000 I think for good drive. Mix that in with two speed motors, and the fact that TECHNICALLY, you are not supposed to use the existing motor switch or foot brake with a drive. They are designed to do all that stuff themselves and it can be bad for them to use the machine switches. Now, I know a lot of people use them without issue, but its just something to think about.

So in conclusion. You guys with 3hp drives thats awesome, but you arent helping this guy out at all, your just pissing him off that he cant get the same drive designed for 4hp.

 

[missed]

That's what I said earlier. He needs a 7.5hp 3 phase input drive to run the 4hp or buy one of the 5hp single phase input drives. Control concepts in Dallas is the place to talk to, they do all our drive service at work that is further in depth than we take it.

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[Red_SC]

Now you are in a price range of $700-1000 I think for good drive.

I'm missing your point- that's the same price range as a ready-to-roll rotary. It looks like he knows that already.

 

[Ritten]

I use an AC Tech SM250 to convert single phase to three phase. This particular unit is one of the few that doesn't need to be derated.....is good for 5hp, and runs around $550. I have been using it on my G0509G for the last couple of years and it's been flawless.

General Purpose Variable Frequency Drive, IP20<br>Up to 15hp<br>AC Tech SCM/SM | Search All AC Drives | Marshall Wolf Automation, Inc.

 

[jonaddis84]

I'm missing your point- that's the same price range as a ready-to-roll rotary. It looks like he knows that already.

I was just saying a few people are recommending the 3hp VFD but it will not work for him.


That AC Tech looks interesting, but correct me if Im wrong, I dont see a 5hp single phase in? Or are you saying they told you it wasnt required to derate the 3ph in 5hp?

 

[Ritten]

I was just saying a few people are recommending the 3hp VFD but it will not work for him.


That AC Tech looks interesting, but correct me if Im wrong, I dont see a 5hp single phase in? Or are you saying they told you it wasnt required to derate the 3ph in 5hp?

Dohhh......sorry. You are correct. I have the SCF series (the SF250Y specifically) which is a 5hp single phase in - 3 phase out. I was posting from work and didn't look close enough to make sure I was looking at the right web page.

General Purpose w/Modbus,IP20<br>Up to 30hp, Single or 3 Phase<br>AC Tech SCF/SF | Single Phase Input | Marshall Wolf Automation, Inc.

 

[jkohler]

I have the grizzly G509g. The problem you run into with the vfd control is the two speed motor on the lathe. Call vfd direct and ask them about running the two speed motor on a vfd. I ended up with a 15hp American rotory adx

 

[Ritten]

The problem you run into with the vfd control is the two speed motor on the lathe.

You do? I rather the variable speed that the VFD offers vs only two speeds. The motor is not "two speed" anyway. The lathe is wired to run it at full power and half speed. By hooking up the VFD it can be run at any frequency from 0 to 60. Thus the term "variable".


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[jkohler]

Ritten
Yes the motor on the G509G is a two speed motor.it runs ether 875 or 1750.

 

[missed]

Two speed motor connect to the high speed windings. I have done it before on cooling tower motors.

 

[Aeon1]

VFD's do not like to have the output switched (or disconnected) while powered up and if you do you may see it go up in smoke. A Grizzly 0509 has a two speed motor, foot brake (kill switch) and has the forward reverse lever mounted on the carraige. This is what Skeetlee and johaddis are warning about. If you wanted to run a VFD on this lathe you'd have to bypass the foot brake contactor , forward reverse contactor and wire the VFD directly to the motor to either the high or low speed windings. As jonaddis already said most VFD's can be configured to electronically do the all the start, stop, braking and reversing but it's a bit of work and wiring to get it done.

 

[MikeeBooshay]

The foot switch and brake is one of the reasons I bought I 0509, it's a LOT of mass spinning around, I'd hate to either lose that functionality, or damage the VFD by using it.

Plus OP, has stated he isn't an electronics genius, the VFD will take a bit of tuning. The RPC is pretty much wire it up and run it, that simple. Plus, you can set it up to supply a 3 phase panel, and power other things that are 3 phase with the same unit, without having to mess with settings.

Not a big fan of rewiring the lathe either, just to make it work with the VFD.

 

[Kebo57]

Mikee....I think you've hit the nail on the head. I'm not going to spend the $8500 to get this lathe bought and shipped then proceed to rip its guts out. I think a rotary converter is the way to go on THIS lathe. I can manage the hook up for the rotary. Up and running with no undue complications.

I really appreciate all the meaningful input from all that have chimed in on this thread. Many thanks- Keith

 

[Papagrizzly]

Mikee....I think you've hit the nail on the head. I'm not going to spend the $8500 to get this lathe bought and shipped then proceed to rip its guts out. I think a rotary converter is the way to go on THIS lathe. I can manage the hook up for the rotary. Up and running with no undue complications.

I really appreciate all the meaningful input from all that have chimed in on this thread. Many thanks- Keith

Good choice. Although VFDs are nice to have, the lathe has a total of 16 very good speeds.

I also have this one in my shop at home and use a 10 H.P. Rotary phase converter. By the way, the rotary phase converters we sell are made in USA. Just be sure and put it a little ways from the lathe or build a sound enclosure around it. Mine sits outside in a "dog house" and I just have a red light on the wall breaker near the lathe to show me if it is on. Another tip - if you live in a damp area and your rotary phase converter sits outside, just add a small light bulb in the enclosure to keep the converter dry. Otherwise, over a few years, moisture might mess up the contacts inside the converter.

 

[bward]

I use a rotary from Phoenix Phase Converter on my Sharp that has a 5 HP motor. I also mounted it outside of the shop, but it is quite enough you don't need to. I believe it is also made in the USA and was about $675 shipped for a 10 HP.

 

[xringaccuracy]

Good choice. Although VFDs are nice to have, the lathe has a total of 16 very good speeds.

I also have this one in my shop at home and use a 10 H.P. Rotary phase converter. By the way, the rotary phase converters we sell are made in USA. Just be sure and put it a little ways from the lathe or build a sound enclosure around it. Mine sits outside in a "dog house" and I just have a red light on the wall breaker near the lathe to show me if it is on. Another tip - if you live in a damp area and your rotary phase converter sits outside, just add a small light bulb in the enclosure to keep the converter dry. Otherwise, over a few years, moisture might mess up the contacts inside the converter.

As Papa said, the speed choices on that lathe give you plenty of options. The VFD is nice but just a frill based on what it can do. Not blowing smoke, I have one.