group by on M40a1 barrels

[Frank Green]

So a couple of guys asked me about doing a group buy on M40A1 pattern barrels. Most guys if they want one they just order one.

So I'll throw it out there to see if there is any interest in a group buy and my thoughts on the two options.

The two options are but I only want to settle on one of each.

First is the contour....My 40a1 spec build I did the barrel contour to the A1 prints. Which is a .875" muzzle +/-.010". Breech length is 4" at 1.2" diameter.

I was given an original A1 barrel by Mr. Land. It was a used take off. If I recall correctly the muzzle is around .900". I'll double check tonight when I get home.

So that's the first question is the muzzle diameter. What would you guys want? .875" or .900".

2nd question.... number of grooves for rifling? Prints for all the A1 thru A3 barrels called out 4 groove, or 5 (which most likely means 5R but they never put the "R" on the prints. They still do that with the 6.5CM barrels and 300 and 338 Norma but the spec is 5R) or 6.

I'd prefer to do the 5R but give me your thoughts.

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels

I did mine with the 5R

 

[RIGREG]

Take my money! I’m in for two.

My thoughts: .900 muzzle. (I’m not an expert, but to me, that is the M40A1 “look.”)
If I’m buying a Bartlien barrel, I want the 5R.

Guys who have take off stocks and other original parts may have other opinions. I’m essentially building new rifles on six digit receivers. New Smears, repro bottom metal and scope mount, commercial Redfield parts and scopes, etc. I just want them to look as correct to me, as possible.

Thanks for your efforts,
Greg

 

[Belvedere]

Same here. I’d be down for one @.9 and 5R. Would you be willing to do the rough finish?

 

[Frank Green]

Same here. I’d be down for one @.9 and 5R. Would you be willing to do the rough finish?

Rough finish as far as what?

Do you mean on the outside of the contour it's a rougher finish? The one take off that I have that is original isn't really rough per se. See the attached pic. It does have some turn lines on the o.d. but it's not horrible and yes... not as smooth as we turn them.

If the above is what your asking for.... we can just finish turn them and how they come out with a nice turn finish... then we just won't run them thru the polishing machine afterwards. They will get bore reamed, prelapped and rifled and out the door.

Or do you mean like rough chambered and threaded on the breech end type stuff?

 

[Stevo86]

If memory serves me correct, when Schnieder started supplying barrels is when the rough finish started.

 

[Stevo86]

Prior to that with Hart and all the others, the barrels were smooth finish

 

[Belvedere]

As Steve said the rough finish that Schneider used to do. Probably what you’re saying about not polishing them after contouring. Works for me. Thanks Frank!

 

[kft101]

Maybe I missed it, but, umm… price?

 

[Stevo86]

I’d be down for one Frank. Need to start collecting parts for an A1 for my son.

 

[Frank Green]

Maybe I missed it, but, umm… price?

I haven't worked that out as of yet. Will do some sort of discount and time frame for them to be all done. I've got to run the pricing past Tracy first for the o.k. for the group buy.

I'll talk to him today. We have to be out for a bit driving today. I'll talk shop while we are driving.

 

[AndyK]

Great Frank,
I'll take one...
Andy

 

[Coejro]

I’ll take one for sure

5R and .875 is my preference, but I’ll take one whatever the final consensus is.

 

[sgtsmmiii]

5R and .900".

 

[Frank Green]

I’ll take one for sure

5R and .875 is my preference, but I’ll take one whatever the final consensus is.

So far the consensus is .900".

 

[Frank Green]

Maybe I missed it, but, umm… price?

So I talked to Tracy yesterday and the price is $380 plus the brown truck charge for shipping. Let's let this thread run for a week or so and to get a rough idea of how many we are looking at and will go from there to put the order together.

Later, Frank

 

[Broc]

Count me in for one as well.

Thanks Frank!

 

[molonlave]

Please put me down for two.

 

[cplnorton]

Just to add a little context. Frank's measurement of .875 +/- .010 is exactly the Marine Corps specs from their M40A1 blueprints I pulled from the archives. The blueprints of the barrel are dated 1999. By then the Marines were installing Schneiders on the M40A1.

I do have a original M40A1 takeoff barrel that is pre-Schneider that I know 100% came from a M40A1. When I measure it's muzzle it's right about .0925 on my digital calipers. The barrel I'm pretty sure is a HS Precision.

When I go back to the 1970's and the creation of the M40A1 program the specs on the Marine docs states its 1.18 that tapers .01159 per inch for 24 inches. If I'm doing my math correctly that puts it at .902 roughly.

I know I measured a M40A1 that was built in 1977 in Marine inventory and It was a fuzz over .900

I would say the early ones were the .900 and the later Schneiders were the .875, since that drawing shows it at .875 at the time of Schneider, but I have a take off Schneider that is .0902. So It really doesn't match that theory.

But anyways I guess when it comes down to it, either spec is correct. I can prove either one by Marine documents. So it will come down to personal preference. I don't need any barrels but if I would choose, I would likely choose the .900. But I don't have any skin in this game other than providing some context.

 

[Random Guy]

FWIW, this replica was built ‘on-location’ using one of extra USMC barrel blanks that Gary Schneider would sell from time to time. (Back then the “Hobby Lobby” program was tolerated for 2112s seeking to maintain their skills, but it went away thereafter). I got the barrel maybe in 2017 or so, and Gary told me whenever he got an order from the USMC for M40(A5) barrels, he would make 5 or 6 extra barrel blanks for guys like me, who wanted to build a replica rifle. Mine came marked as seen here:

My Schneider M40A1 barrel appears a little fatter at 0.914”, so perhaps there is some variance?

As for that slightly rough machine finish on the surface of Schneider barrels, someone told me the USMC asked for that rough finish, as the subsequent camo paint would stick a little better. I can’t remember if that was Gary or a 2112 who said that, but that is what I was told years ago. Hard to photograph, but it’s a rough surface with fine machine marks on the surface:

…So my vote is a 0.900” diameter barrel, 5R rifling.
On EDIT: Frank, I'll take one of those barrels in 1/10 twist, thanks for offering this!

 

[Frank Green]

Just to add a little context. Frank's measurement of .875 +/- .010 is exactly the Marine Corps specs from their M40A1 blueprints I pulled from the archives. The blueprints of the barrel are dated 1999. By then the Marines were installing Schneiders on the M40A1.

I do have a original M40A1 takeoff barrel that is pre-Schneider that I know 100% came from a M40A1. When I measure it's muzzle it's right about .0925 on my digital calipers. The barrel I'm pretty sure is a HS Precision.

When I go back to the 1970's and the creation of the M40A1 program the specs on the Marine docs states its 1.18 that tapers .01159 per inch for 24 inches. If I'm doing my math correctly that puts it at .902 roughly.

I know I measured a M40A1 that was built in 1977 in Marine inventory and It was a fuzz over .900

I would say the early ones were the .900 and the later Schneiders were the .875, since that drawing shows it at .875 at the time of Schneider, but I have a take off Schneider that is .0902. So It really doesn't match that theory.

But anyways I guess when it comes down to it, either spec is correct. I can prove either one by Marine documents. So it will come down to personal preference. I don't need any barrels but if I would choose, I would likely choose the .900. But I don't have any skin in this game other than providing some context.

Thanks Bud!

That confirms everything that I've seen. We're just gonna settle on .900.

Later, Frank

 

[Frank Green]

Up to 8 barrels wanted. There is no minimum or max needed for this group buy. Will just cut it off say in two weeks so from now so we can get the orders in the system and in the works.

 

[Belvedere]

Still in for one myself.

 

[sf180a]

I’ll take one

 

[John L]

Frank,
Put me down for one.
John

 

[Redmanss]

Rough finish: As I remember the story when we first got them, Gary rushed the first barrels for testing to Quantico and didn't have time to polish the outside after contouring. The guys running the test rifles loved the finish because as mentioned above, it held paint better and had less shine in an FFP, and requested the production barrels to have the same.

In the FMF, we loved the Schneiders for this trait. The barrel was a bitch to keep the shine down beforehand and was the cause of more than a few "busts" on stalks. I made a point of sending Schnieders to school with my PIGs when I was Chief Scout, they needed every edge they could get to make it through.

Frank, are you going to run a 12 twist? I've always thought about putting a 10 twist on mine because one, neither I nor anybody else would ever know the difference looking at it and two, I'm never going to need the ability to delink and shoot 147gr machine gun ammo. A 10 twist just shoots 175 SMKs better, and no offense to Bartlein as I love your barrels but if I'm already straying from an original manufacturer of M40A1 barrels, I may as well stray from twist rate while I'm at it to something that shoots better. If a clone correct critic gets on me for it, I'll tell them to go find a fucking pole. IYKYK.

Either way, put me down for one.

 

[dpw4x4]

I'M IN FOR ONE PLEASE

 

[John L]

Rough finish: As I remember the story when we first got them, Gary rushed the first barrels for testing to Quantico and didn't have time to polish the outside after contouring. The guys running the test rifles loved the finish because as mentioned above, it held paint better and had less shine in an FFP, and requested the production barrels to have the same.

In the FMF, we loved the Schneiders for this trait. The barrel was a bitch to keep the shine down beforehand and was the cause of more than a few "busts" on stalks. I made a point of sending Schnieders to school with my PIGs when I was Chief Scout, they needed every edge they could get to make it through.

Frank, are you going to run a 12 twist? I've always thought about putting a 10 twist on mine because one, neither I nor anybody else would ever know the difference looking at it and two, I'm never going to need the ability to delink and shoot 147gr machine gun ammo. A 10 twist just shoots 175 SMKs better, and no offense to Bartlein as I love your barrels but if I'm already straying from an original manufacturer of M40A1 barrels, I may as well stray from twist rate while I'm at it to something that shoots better. If a clone correct critic gets on me for it, I'll tell them to go find a fucking pole. IYKYK.

Either way, put me down for one.

I would also prefer the 10 twist, just covers many more bullet weights than the 12.

 

[cplnorton]

A funny note on the rough finish. It actually predates the Schneider barrels by over 20 years. The neat thing from searching in the archives you see the same stuff just over and over.

On the rough finish on the barrels. The first time I've saw the Marines request the barrels to have a rough finish on their M40's was on a March 1973 M40 technical rebuild manual. They stated they sandblasted the polished Stainless steel replacement barrels.

This was the precurursor to the M40A1 program, but basically many of the M40A1 traits are already in place in 1973. Including a M40A1 spec stainless steel barrel with a rough finish so it could either be black oxided, or they stated they would be painted a flat black.

 

[Redmanss]

A funny note on the rough finish. It actually predates the Schneider barrels by over 20 years. The neat thing from searching in the archives you see the same stuff just over and over.

On the rough finish on the barrels. The first time I've saw the Marines request the barrels to have a rough finish on their M40's was on a March 1973 M40 technical rebuild manual. They stated they sandblasted the polished Stainless steel replacement barrels.

This was the precurursor to the M40A1 program, but basically many of the M40A1 traits are already in place in 1973. Including a M40A1 spec stainless steel barrel with a rough finish so it could either be black oxided, or they stated they would be painted a flat black.

That's a neat bit of info. All our new guns we'd get out of Albany would have a fresh black oxide, but on the Hart and HS barrels were never anything I'd call "rough". Matte, sure, but not anything that would give that zipper sound running your thumbnail down it like the Schneiders had.

After a couple years in a platoon, especially after being painted-stripped-painted a few times through school runs and a MEU(SOC) or two bouncing through different climates needing a different color scheme, the black oxide started to disappear and they'd really get that shine I spoke of earlier. It didn't help we'd strip them with a soaking of CLP and going after the paint with a green scratch pad. Two ball bearings, padded room, something something...

 

[pcampbell]

I am interested in one for my FBI "inspired" model 70 build, but I'm curious about finished length and twist rate. I'd prefer 1-10, but if the group consensus is 1-12 I'll pass. Excited to see the finished product of everyone's builds on these.

 

[Frank Green]

Rough finish: As I remember the story when we first got them, Gary rushed the first barrels for testing to Quantico and didn't have time to polish the outside after contouring. The guys running the test rifles loved the finish because as mentioned above, it held paint better and had less shine in an FFP, and requested the production barrels to have the same.

In the FMF, we loved the Schneiders for this trait. The barrel was a bitch to keep the shine down beforehand and was the cause of more than a few "busts" on stalks. I made a point of sending Schnieders to school with my PIGs when I was Chief Scout, they needed every edge they could get to make it through.

Frank, are you going to run a 12 twist? I've always thought about putting a 10 twist on mine because one, neither I nor anybody else would ever know the difference looking at it and two, I'm never going to need the ability to delink and shoot 147gr machine gun ammo. A 10 twist just shoots 175 SMKs better, and no offense to Bartlein as I love your barrels but if I'm already straying from an original manufacturer of M40A1 barrels, I may as well stray from twist rate while I'm at it to something that shoots better. If a clone correct critic gets on me for it, I'll tell them to go find a fucking pole. IYKYK.

Either way, put me down for one.

We can do whatever twist you guys want. If some guys want a 10 and some a 12. Will just split the orders. Won't make any cost difference. It's not a big deal. Even if you want an 11 twist. All the orders will have each persons name on it anyways. Will just run them all at one time in one batch.

The original M40 barrels where all spec'd as 1-10 twist. The actual spec on the A1 and A3 barrels is 12 twist. I think even the A5's was 12 also but the A6's if I recall correctly went back to a 10 twist.

I did a 10 twist on mine. Why? Gives me more options for bullets to shoot. I'm really liking the new 169SMK's. Have a higher BC than the 175's and will knock on the door of the 180's and even some 190's. The 169's need something like a 11.02 twist minimum to fly. I've shot them out of my M14 with an 11 twist barrel and they shot great. Even coming out at 2500fps. Out of my A1 build they are running right at 2700fps.

So it's your call on what twist you want. Will make whatever you want.

Like you said, "If a clone correct critic gets on me for it, I'll tell them to go find a fucking pole." It's still a clone build and not an original. Who gives a crap. If some dude has to ask and doesn't like it... go pound sand!

 

[Frank Green]

I am interested in one for my FBI "inspired" model 70 build, but I'm curious about finished length and twist rate. I'd prefer 1-10, but if the group consensus is 1-12 I'll pass. Excited to see the finished product of everyone's builds on these.

Finish length on the Original M40A1's and A3's was 25". Measured from the front side of the recoil lug if I recall correctly is 24" finish. So closer to 25" finish by the time you add in the recoil lug and the breech thread length etc.... We will just make 27" blanks. Will put the .900" muzzle diameter @ 25" on the blank.

See my previous post on the twist. Not a big deal to us what each guy wants.

 

[Frank Green]

I can have the shop contour a blank and leave it unpolished and post pics of it to get everyones approval on the outside finish and compare it to Lands barrel etc...

If you want I'll ship one to a guy so someone can physically look at it and give it they're blessing. I have a guy in mind for that but if someone wants to be in on it that way there is a general consensus. I'm cool with that. I'm thinking @lizzardking308 here on the hide.

The blank won't be rifled and they can just send it back and will finish it up.

 

[pcampbell]

Finish length on the Original M40A1's and A3's was 25". Measured from the front side of the recoil lug if I recall correctly is 24" finish. So closer to 25" finish by the time you add in the recoil lug and the breech thread length etc.... We will just make 27" blanks. Will put the .900" muzzle diameter @ 25" on the blank.

See my previous post on the twist. Not a big deal to us what each guy wants.

Sounds great, put me down for one in 1/10 please!

 

[billyhill]

I'll take 1 in 10 twist

 

[Random Guy]

Frank, please put me on the list for one M40A1 pattern barrel in 1/10 twist, and many thanks for offering these barrels.
(Shameless plug, just got my replica M40 back a few days ago, it also has a Bartlein 1/10 twist, 5R rifling - but in the M40 profile)

No target crown, and diameter at muzzle is 0.837", like the originals. Just need to do a range trip to break-it in...

Frank, keep up the good work(!).

 

[Frank Green]

Frank, please put me on the list for one M40A1 pattern barrel in 1/10 twist, and many thanks for offering these barrels.
(Shameless plug, just got my replica M40 back a few days ago, it also has a Bartlein 1/10 twist, 5R rifling - but in the M40 profile)

View attachment 8644055

View attachment 8644056

No target crown, and diameter at muzzle is 0.837", like the originals. Just need to do a range trip to break-it in...
View attachment 8644057

View attachment 8644068
Frank, keep up the good work(!).

Sweet! Gotta do a range report after getting it all shot in!

 

[Frank Green]

I can have the shop contour a blank and leave it unpolished and post pics of it to get everyones approval on the outside finish and compare it to Lands barrel etc...

If you want I'll ship one to a guy so someone can physically look at it and give it they're blessing. I have a guy in mind for that but if someone wants to be in on it that way there is a general consensus. I'm cool with that. I'm thinking @lizzardking308 here on the hide.

The blank won't be rifled and they can just send it back and will finish it up.

How about you @Redmanss? You want to see one?