I'm new here, and fairly new to long range shooting, so hello to all! I am shooting a .308, good handloads (Laupa brass, Sierra MK, CCI BR primers, IMR 8208 XBR powder), but am having issues with grouping in my rifle. I regularly clean it (removing copper), have a quality scope (Nikon Monarch), and at 100 yards I usually (if I do my part) put 2 in the same hole then have a flier (after fouling shots). I am allowing for cooling between shots and the ammo is from the same batch of handloads...any ideas on what is going on?
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Advanced Marksmanship Grouping, what's going on with my rifle?
- Thread starter chilidog1216
- Start date
Re: Grouping, what's going on with my rifle?
Look in the mirror. Then look at your trigger finger. There's the likely reasons. Dry fire is the medicine you need to cure your problem.
You say you're new to LR shooting. How new are you to shooting in general, and how proficient are you in marksmanship in general?
Look in the mirror. Then look at your trigger finger. There's the likely reasons. Dry fire is the medicine you need to cure your problem.
You say you're new to LR shooting. How new are you to shooting in general, and how proficient are you in marksmanship in general?
Re: Grouping, what's going on with my rifle?
Solid fundamentals and consistancy, constistancy, consistancy . . .
Solid fundamentals and consistancy, constistancy, consistancy . . .
Re: Grouping, what's going on with my rifle?
I had the same problem for awhile and it was the first shot everytime. For me at least it was not correctly having my natural point of aim set up. I rectified it by completely relaxing behind the weapon, closing my eyes, slightly wiggling the rifle back and forth, opening my eyes then checking for my NPOI. If it wasn't on target when I opened my eyes, I shifted body position and tried again. This was for prone supported. Hope it helps.
As others have mentioned, 5 shot groups are the way to go. 3 shot groups really only tell you that your scope is dialed in. The 5 or even 10 shot groups will let you know if it is you, and what you need to do to rectify it. If your still having trouble, post a target if you will.
I had the same problem for awhile and it was the first shot everytime. For me at least it was not correctly having my natural point of aim set up. I rectified it by completely relaxing behind the weapon, closing my eyes, slightly wiggling the rifle back and forth, opening my eyes then checking for my NPOI. If it wasn't on target when I opened my eyes, I shifted body position and tried again. This was for prone supported. Hope it helps.
As others have mentioned, 5 shot groups are the way to go. 3 shot groups really only tell you that your scope is dialed in. The 5 or even 10 shot groups will let you know if it is you, and what you need to do to rectify it. If your still having trouble, post a target if you will.
Re: Grouping, what's going on with my rifle?
Well, if it's always 2 and 1, as alluded to, then look to what it is within the experiment that has changed or become different to cause the barrel to be pointed in a different direction from the first two shots. If the OP can put two right-in-there, why not three? To believe this is any kind of shooter error means it's always and only on the third shot something like NPA, parallax, trigger control, or stockweld has been compromised. I don't think this is likely. If the OP's observation of always 2 and 1 is accurate, then it would appear the bore condition is changing. At any rate, shooting longer shot strings, as well as plotting calls and strikes could easily identify what the source of error is here. BTW, calling shots on dry firing will help clarify whether or not there's any shooter error, since the reticle/target relationship in such an exercise has no connection with where the barrel is actually pointed.
Well, if it's always 2 and 1, as alluded to, then look to what it is within the experiment that has changed or become different to cause the barrel to be pointed in a different direction from the first two shots. If the OP can put two right-in-there, why not three? To believe this is any kind of shooter error means it's always and only on the third shot something like NPA, parallax, trigger control, or stockweld has been compromised. I don't think this is likely. If the OP's observation of always 2 and 1 is accurate, then it would appear the bore condition is changing. At any rate, shooting longer shot strings, as well as plotting calls and strikes could easily identify what the source of error is here. BTW, calling shots on dry firing will help clarify whether or not there's any shooter error, since the reticle/target relationship in such an exercise has no connection with where the barrel is actually pointed.
Re: Grouping, what's going on with my rifle?
Shoot the Dot Drill instead of groups then overlay them. I'd bet it would turn out good for you.........
Keith
Shoot the Dot Drill instead of groups then overlay them. I'd bet it would turn out good for you.........
Keith
Re: Grouping, what's going on with my rifle?
Definitely true but how often is the 2 together then 1 flier the weapon. From what I've seen you have that person shoot 5 then bam surprise 4 and 1.
In any event put the weapon in a vice, shoot a 5 round group then take it out and you do the same. Should solve whether it's shooter or not
Definitely true but how often is the 2 together then 1 flier the weapon. From what I've seen you have that person shoot 5 then bam surprise 4 and 1.
In any event put the weapon in a vice, shoot a 5 round group then take it out and you do the same. Should solve whether it's shooter or not
Re: Grouping, what's going on with my rifle?
If it does it with another rifle, it's not the rifle.
If I does it with another shooter it <span style="font-style: italic">is</span> the rifle.
If you still can't tell, do some practice with a .22LR, centerfire ammo is too expensive to waste.
If this is always happening in the first 10 rounds after cleaning, clean less often, and don't get in a tailspin trying to get out the very last smidge of fouling.
Mostly I foam the bore once, patch it dry, oil it lightly, and I'm done. It does <span style="font-style: italic">not</span> need to be spotless. It <span style="font-style: italic">does</span> need to have a moisture barrier as the top layer in the bore before being put away until next time. Dry patch the oil (mostly) from the bore before resuming firing.
There, that's Bore Care 101.
If it does it with another rifle, it's not the rifle.
If I does it with another shooter it <span style="font-style: italic">is</span> the rifle.
If you still can't tell, do some practice with a .22LR, centerfire ammo is too expensive to waste.
If this is always happening in the first 10 rounds after cleaning, clean less often, and don't get in a tailspin trying to get out the very last smidge of fouling.
Mostly I foam the bore once, patch it dry, oil it lightly, and I'm done. It does <span style="font-style: italic">not</span> need to be spotless. It <span style="font-style: italic">does</span> need to have a moisture barrier as the top layer in the bore before being put away until next time. Dry patch the oil (mostly) from the bore before resuming firing.
There, that's Bore Care 101.
Re: Grouping, what's going on with my rifle?
Thanks for all the suggestions, hopefully I can answer a couple of the questions posed. I have been shooting for years, the precision stuff is new. I do practice dry firing on a regular basis. It is always shoot 2--same hole, flier. Could it be a weather thing? This summer I was shooting groups at 200 that were less that .2" center to center, then when it got cold, all hell broke loose with the gun. Same loads, same everything except the weather....I went and shot it again today, same thing was going on. I'm going to try some 5 shot strings this week and I'll update, but if anyone can think of anything else please let me know. Thanks again for the suggestions!
Thanks for all the suggestions, hopefully I can answer a couple of the questions posed. I have been shooting for years, the precision stuff is new. I do practice dry firing on a regular basis. It is always shoot 2--same hole, flier. Could it be a weather thing? This summer I was shooting groups at 200 that were less that .2" center to center, then when it got cold, all hell broke loose with the gun. Same loads, same everything except the weather....I went and shot it again today, same thing was going on. I'm going to try some 5 shot strings this week and I'll update, but if anyone can think of anything else please let me know. Thanks again for the suggestions!
Re: Grouping, what's going on with my rifle?
Weather thing? Think, about that. I'm assuming the always 2 and 1 is in context to a shooting session where the time from shot to shot is no more than a minute, or thereabouts. For weather to have something to do with your 2 and 1 you would need be shooting over a greater period to time, where a change in temperature could have an effect on velocity/trajectory.
I think your problem is all about your barrel warming up, if the "always" is an accurate statement.
Weather thing? Think, about that. I'm assuming the always 2 and 1 is in context to a shooting session where the time from shot to shot is no more than a minute, or thereabouts. For weather to have something to do with your 2 and 1 you would need be shooting over a greater period to time, where a change in temperature could have an effect on velocity/trajectory.
I think your problem is all about your barrel warming up, if the "always" is an accurate statement.
Re: Grouping, what's going on with my rifle?
When you're developing a load for the rifle, ask yourself which rifle.
To my mind the rifle in question is the one that's being shot the way I normally shoot it. For me, this means I need to test the loads the way they'll be used, starting with a warm and fouled barrel, and following the same shot cadence my application employs.
A load that only shoots well for the first two shots is not properly developed for a sustained fire application, IMHO.
Think about it...
Greg
When you're developing a load for the rifle, ask yourself which rifle.
To my mind the rifle in question is the one that's being shot the way I normally shoot it. For me, this means I need to test the loads the way they'll be used, starting with a warm and fouled barrel, and following the same shot cadence my application employs.
A load that only shoots well for the first two shots is not properly developed for a sustained fire application, IMHO.
Think about it...
Greg
Re: Grouping, what's going on with my rifle?
Chili, stop looking outside. You got good advice, then asked if it was the weather. ?
Take the advice, especially about stopping with the groups and shooting a 22.
If your groups are giving you that much trouble, switch disciplines and shoot bench rest.
Chili, stop looking outside. You got good advice, then asked if it was the weather. ?
Take the advice, especially about stopping with the groups and shooting a 22.
If your groups are giving you that much trouble, switch disciplines and shoot bench rest.
Re: Grouping, what's going on with my rifle?
Have someone else shoot the rifle (with Experience) to rule out a Bedding / Stress related issue, then follow all advice above.
Have someone else shoot the rifle (with Experience) to rule out a Bedding / Stress related issue, then follow all advice above.
Re: Grouping, what's going on with my rifle?
I agree with everything said above, and would like to also reinforce the "less cleaning" of your rifle.
Allow your bore to equilibrate out.
I agree with everything said above, and would like to also reinforce the "less cleaning" of your rifle.
Allow your bore to equilibrate out.
