Groups with M14S and Sage stock

[Mike_in_FL]

This rifle was a safe queen for way too long. Finally tried it out today. Poly M14S receiver, reworked trigger, Barnett Douglas med. barrel std. length, M852 chamber, H&R bolt. ARMS 18 w/ Burris 8 -32X, and of course the Sage:

Putting it mildly, I normally find shooting shomething with a pistol grip and whatever stock a cluster (for me) from the bench. These are the first shots out of this rifle since it was built. I actually posted the targets out of order. The second photo is the first groups shot, in the order of the 12, 10, 3, and 6 o'clock groups.

The first target group fired was at 12. I believe shots 1 and 2 were at 12, 3rd is down at4, 4 and 5 are at 7 o'clock. The barrel was rather hot by this point. I let it cool and then fired the groups #2 and #3 on the first target. Seems like things were getting worse, LOL.

I've decided I'm not really a fan of the Sage nor of the M14 type platform, blasphemy I know. It would probably take Geissele to build triggers before I would change my mind. And this is my 2nd trip down the Poly street. Sold the first because of the unknown on rebarreling them way back when, and it had excessive headspace. Of course, it also shot 2" groups with FGMM with irons or scope.

These were shot with the same load I use in all my .308s. I'm not going to bother to try and wring anything more out of this. I think it would be rather futile at this point. The only thing I would consider further is simply putting it into a GI fiberglass stock and adding a cheekpiece. I don't know if I want to invest any more in this however. My AR-10 carbine delivers equal (actually better with me shooting) accuracy and is infinitely more useful for my purposes.

My only purpose of posting this is simply I've NEVER seen anybody post any pics of targets shot by this kind of combination. It almost seems as if there's a secret club of M1A owners who don't want to talk about it...

This is the info I was looking for when I started down this path about 7 years ago. If you're trying to "precision" your M14/M1A, I'd suggest you go JAE. Unfortunately since more info was divulged after I started this build, these are pretty much the results I expected.

 

[NoExpert]

Re: Groups with M14S and Sage stock

Never shot it with the Sage until now? They tend to take about 50 shots to settle in. Then there's the little screw on the front of the top rail that may or may not affect things if it's contacting the barrel. Also if everything isn't torqued right it causes issues. A very picky system to say the least. I got some really good accuracy out of my JAE but man it was heavy. I'm still finishing up my switch to a Sage so have to wait and see how it turns out. My friend's Sage setups have done quite well so hoping for the same.

I only have one target pic from the JAE when I was dialing it in. It was more of messing around and getting it settled using surplus ammo...

I was aiming all over the place, 5 shots at the very bottom left corner, 20 at the lower left diamond, 5 at the upper left diamond and 5 at the lower right diamond. The last bit was the 20 rounds rapid into the lower left diamond, took about 30 second to get all 20 rounds out. After that it was pretty well settled.

 

[Remsen]

Re: Groups with M14S and Sage stock

I've had about the same experience with my M1A. It's a loaded model bedded in a McM M3A stock and the groups never get much better than what you see below (10 shot group taken this weekend, shooting South African surplus). I've shot it with and without the scope and it pretty much does the same groups either way. Every other rifle I own shoots much better, so I have to assume it's something inherent in the M1A platform. Given the price of these rifles I expected a lot more, but I guess that having a semi auto .308 with a 20 round capacity and the ability to shoot minute of enemy is what they were designed to do.

 

[kraigWY]

Re: Groups with M14S and Sage stock

I think M14/M1As shoots better then many give it credit. They just don't spend the time learning to shoot it, instead they want to gimmick it up making it look Tacticool.

I got my M1A in 1977 as a standard grade, a few years later it was converted to a Super Match by Gene Barnett, who (besides making Barnett Barrels, was an Armor for the NGMTU). I was shooting for the NG at the time.

I don't shoot from a bench, nor do I use scopes on my M1A, its strickly a Service Rifle.

In the last 30 plus years I've cleaned the 300 yard Rapid fire target a few times, looking at my old score books, the first few was with M118, but most were Mexican Match uing 168 SMKs or M852.

This was 10 shot rapid fire strings prone unsupporeted. I am no way close to being the only one who's cleaned 300 yard RF targets, the gun is capable if one practices.

The SR3 target has a 7 inch X-10 ring, thats 2 1/3 MOA.

I have differant opinions of the AR-10s but leaving that aside, I haven't seen any cleaned SR3 targets with one shot under the same conditions.

For my money, I'll stick with the M1A, as I've said, I've been shooting it since 1977, and since Barnett coverted it to a super match, the only problem I've had is I've replaced a couple shot out barrels and stretched out slings, They are reliable, and hold their zeros quite well.

The gun is more then capable of cleaning any HP target from 200 to 1000 yards, its the shooter thats the weak link.

 

[Mike_in_FL]

Re: Groups with M14S and Sage stock

<span style="font-weight: bold">NoExpert:</span> I've never fired the rifle at all until yesterday. When I was gathering up parts for this the JAE wasn't available. The Sage was purchased a little over 6 years ago. It was advertised to work with the GI barrel or a medium contour.

Today I know that's not true, you have to purchase a top rail for the heavier contour. So mine isn't even installed. The other rails were also all to be purchased optionally driving the price up another 150 IIRC so I don't own them. It took me years to get pictures of the popsicle stick modification needed to work with the Sage. That was done yesterday morning.

I never heard of the stock taking time to settle in. I have heard of at least 2 botched installations that affected accuracy. One of the ROs where I shot yesterday mentioned problems with his but said it was a middle man who put it into the Sage.

Your rifle looks like it wants to shoot, that's pretty damn good for surplus stuff.

<span style="font-weight: bold">Mr. Stuart:</span>

When the Sage was initially offered it was touted as the best stock for accuracy with this platform. That is without bedding I should add. That's what I was attempting to build, the most accurate M14 clone possible. I'm not sure the word "tacticool" was invented yet. Again, never seeing any actual groups led me to post pics of my targets so as not to lead others down this expensive path. If I were to do it again I wouldn't waste 2k on this rifle and stock. That's my opinion.

My choices were this stock or a McMillan and some non-friendly bedding instructions. I could be wrong but I bet you won't find too many people on this site who have bedded one of these rifles. I don't believe the same could be said about the Remington 700. You didn't mention if you've rebedded your rifle. I've always heard the bedding goes bad in the wood stocks and is usually redone during rebarrel.

What I was attempting to do with my rifle has absolutely nothing to do with highpower. You say you never shoot from a bench. The option I have available to me is shoot from the bench or not at all. If I could, I wouldn't feel bad shooting against the majority of other folks on the bench using a glove, sling, and jacket. I'm sure you can shoot quite respectable groups at 100 that way.

If and when I get back into HP it will be shot at a different area of my home range on reduced targets. The 300 yard reduced SR21 has a .79" X ring, 2.12" 10 ring. I've no personal experience but have read that the best built M14s only average about 3/4 moa. I just won't invest any more as I sold my NM sights.

The AR-15 dominates Service Rifle. Would you really recommend a M1A to a new shooter over an AR-15? If your answer is no, then I think you would agree that this is a rare occasion where it IS the rifle and not the shooter. Didn't X counts go up when these rifles were correctly built?

The fact that you never use a scope on your purpose built SR M1A makes perfect sense. I would simply ask you if you ever used a M21 type or feelings about those. As far as the AR-10 being used in HP, I have no idea. I wouldn't think anybody would want to burn more powder and deal with more recoil when the AR-15 is already proven. Unless you're daring to be different.

Knowing/hearing the information I have currently I would go with a gunsmith built AR .308 rifle if I wanted the most accurate semiauto I could buy. That's simply my opinion. But that's all you seem to find when you're about to lay down your dollars for a new rifle. Opinion and a lot of nostalgia.

My rifle functioned flawlessly but I like the AR magazine system. I think my rifle could perform about as well in a 'glass GI stock and weigh significantly less. It would be a lot friendlier to shoot from a bench for me. I have no idea of how the SDMs with the Sage would use a sling other than as a carry strap.

 

[kraigWY]

Re: Groups with M14S and Sage stock

No sir, I would not recommend a new shooter pick the M14/M1A over the AR if he/she is starting out in HP. There is the cost factor there and I want to keep shooting sports from being a rich man's sport.

As I mentioned, its about getting to know the gun, taking the time and putting the effort into learning the rifle. It's easier to learn the AR then the M14/M1As, its easier to shoot for juniors and ladies, that is the main reason I like the AR.

Yes I've shoot the M21s, That is the system I used when I went to sniper school and I've taught sniper schools using that system. However, when it comes to groups, I can shoot as well or better with the M14s iron sights. The ART scope was easier to use as a range finder then the front post of iron sights. Also better in low light situations. But the gun w/out the scope is the same.

My contention is the M14/M1A will shoot better then many people seem to think. It doesn't need many of the gimmicks people tend to put on the rifle.

 

[lennyo3034]

Re: Groups with M14S and Sage stock

I've only shot match (GMM) ammo out of my SAI NM M1a once. And even then I only had 5 rounds left from shooting my bolt gun. This was at 100 yards with iron sights shooting from prone. First 2 were high left (had already been zeroed using surplus ammo), made 1 MOA down and 1 MOA right correction. Next 3 were dead on. Most people say surplus ammo shoots close to match out of the M1A, but I find that not to be the case. I'll try to get out to the range again with more match ammo

 

[NoExpert]

Re: Groups with M14S and Sage stock

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fngmike</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="font-weight: bold">NoExpert:</span> I've never fired the rifle at all until yesterday. When I was gathering up parts for this the JAE wasn't available. The Sage was purchased a little over 6 years ago. It was advertised to work with the GI barrel or a medium contour.

Today I know that's not true, you have to purchase a top rail for the heavier contour. So mine isn't even installed. The other rails were also all to be purchased optionally driving the price up another 150 IIRC so I don't own them. It took me years to get pictures of the popsicle stick modification needed to work with the Sage. That was done yesterday morning.

I never heard of the stock taking time to settle in. I have heard of at least 2 botched installations that affected accuracy. One of the ROs where I shot yesterday mentioned problems with his but said it was a middle man who put it into the Sage.

Your rifle looks like it wants to shoot, that's pretty damn good for surplus stuff.</div></div>

The popsicle stick mod is for any GI stock with a Chinese receiver that has the original connector lock. Sage, JAE, USGI wood and fiberglass and others would all require it. That or you fit a USGI connector lock to the Chinese receiver.

As for the top rail, sorry, someone lied to you. There is the optional 5 screw hand guard as I'm sure you know, but the original 6 screws won't work.

I've heard from too many people that the action needs to settle into the stock, I believe it since even bedded rifles need to settle in if they're removed from the stock. You have the op rod block is all torqued in at 65 in-lbs right? The trigger guard locks up tight? If so, you should see it settle in on the paper. A friend had similar groups, the first 20 were fairly good, the next 20 were so so, the last 20 tightened up. It was weird. On my JAE the groups just got tighter but then it didn't have the op rod block either.

On another note, what did you have the barrel head spaced to?

 

[Rovieairto]

Re: Groups with M14S and Sage stock


Your rifle is full of "hidden" gimmicks that were done by Barnett.
Your gimmicks need to be hidden and his don't.

The iron-sighted M-14 is just fine as it is and it has a lot to teach.
The scoped M-14 has already taught him a lot about these rifles.
A quality scope really only lets you see better than with irons, so anyone should shoot better with a scope.
10 shots, with-in 2 MOA, at 300 yards, in 70 seconds with a reload is not very impressive until it is done unsupported, and with iron sights.
Even then it is a very common occurrence in high-power.

 

[lennyo3034]

Re: Groups with M14S and Sage stock

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hamilton</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
10 shots, with-in 2 MOA, at 300 yards, in 70 seconds with a reload is not very impressive until it is done unsupported, and with iron sights.
Even then it is a very common occurrence in high-power.</div></div>

Saw this at a match last weekend. Not uncommon. I would love to learn to shoot that well.

 

[Mike_in_FL]

Re: Groups with M14S and Sage stock

<span style="font-weight: bold">NoExpert:</span>

If I use .308 gauges my rifle headspaces at 1.634 which IIRC is correct for the M14 but may be considered sloppy for strict .308. I just looked it up, 1.630 go for .308, and 1.635 go on 7.62. Mine closes on no/go, but not field in .308. I know a friend's M1A headspaces slightly tighter but not sure how his shoots. I was unsure when I had it built if I would ever run surplus through it. Interesting note; using the Hornady Lock n Load OAL tool this rifle has about .020 less throat than my 700 using 168 SMKs in both.

The popsicle stick. The 1st Poly was put in a GI 'glass stock but didn't receive this mod and I never had a problem with the connector lock. The timeframe when I owned this rifle was mid-90's and certain well-known gunsmiths were burning up forums stating the receivers were worthless,even when they'd never attempted to rebarrel one or fit a bolt. But the lock was popping out on this rifle. The 3 screws are torqued correctly and trigger group locks up tight, so thanks for the tip about it settling in.

 

[NoExpert]

Re: Groups with M14S and Sage stock

I think the settling in takes longer on the Sage since the op rod block is held by the stock, so it has to find it's happy place in relationship to the stock and barrel. Normal op rod guides are just fixed to the barrel so nothing much but the receiver settling in happens.

My head space is just a hair tighter at 1.632 which is what Krieger recommended to me when I talked to them about running surplus and commercial ammo. Not sure if that would make a difference.

Hopefully it shakes out for you... just curious, did you get the Sage from Fulton Armory?

 

[Mike_in_FL]

Re: Groups with M14S and Sage stock

<span style="font-weight: bold">NoExpert:</span>


Yes, got the stock from FA. I think they were one of the first to carry them. Mine is all black, only rail is on top cover, no handgrip(?) forward of the receiver. Forend sort of resembles a hockey stick shaft. Looked at the price of their EBR lately? Ouch!

As far as the headspace goes I don't think it matters that significantly. From what I've read, the XM21/M21 began with a NM M14. Not sure if the NM M14 would have been rebarreled and headspaced differently. Or if Lake City M852 was held to .308 dimensions but marked 7.62? I had a jr. high metal shop teacher who always referred to the rifle as XM21. Shot a very tight group, under moa, at a school which stood as a record. Served in the 25th ID. The other kids built whatever, he didn't have a problem with me building a gun safe, LOL.


If "I" can shoot the rifle better than it's first outing I'll post more pics. I have no axe to grind, just "heard" how great these are for years, while mine sat.

 

[kraigWY]

Re: Groups with M14S and Sage stock

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Not sure if the NM M14 would have been rebarreled and headspaced differently. Or if Lake City M852 was held to .308 dimensions but marked 7.62?</div></div>

The M21 had a military semi-heavy match barrel, as oppose to the 6 grove Barnet barrels it was a 4 grove barrel designed to shoot M118 (Military 174 Match Bullets). The M852 was never met to be used in the M21. When M852 came out the Army started putting M-118 into brown boxes calling it Special Ball, unlike the White Box M118 the Special Ball had crimped primers.

The 4 grove barrels worked with the 174s, the 6 grove Barnet barrels not so well. When M-852 started showing up in the system I had to start issuing two NM M14s to my rifle team, one, with the military match barrel, for when we got M118, and one with the Barnet barrel to use when we got M852.

The M118 worked out of M14 at 1000 yard matches, we had to mexican match the M852 with 180 SMKs (this was before the 175s came out).

I don't know if the re-barreled (or with what) the M21s for the current engagements.

USAMU Sniper Schoot, 1978. The ammo boxes was M118 Match and of course before the 852 or special ball was around.

 

[NoExpert]

Re: Groups with M14S and Sage stock

I believe you're right about FA having them first. I remember seeing them and wasn't overly impressed. Then seeing every single part was a freaking add on, good grief.

They are pricey now, but at least come standard with everything. I have the Mod 1 from Clyde Armory, $879 but came with the medium barrel top rail, 6" side rails, full bottom rail that's taller than the standard rail (for the M203 grenade launcher I'll never have), Magpul CTR with .75" riser, Vltor storage tube receiver extension, Troy modular fore grip, kydex hand guards and it was anodized in a tan/brown colour. It cost me half what my JAE did and the rifle now weighs about 5 pounds less.

Put a few more rounds through it and see how it does.