Gun Safe

[RGraff]

Re: Gun Safe

Mr. Phillips...while acknowledging your service and experience, I respectfully disagree.

While your statements accurately reflect the effectiveness of most residential security containers, that has not been my experience with commercial "grade" safes carrying UL or verifiable manufacturer certifications.

As with most other things in life...you get what you pay for.

 

[Cesiumsponge]

Re: Gun Safe

I don't think most people here are purchasing commercial safes with UL-listed fire ratings. It's worth noting that UL-rated burglary safes also don't have UL-fire ratings except for very, very few models (a single Meilink model comes to mind), because the randomized construction nature of commercial-level UL-rated burglary safes means they aren't all standardized and theoretically respond differently in these tests, and the UL won't slap a UL fire rating on a product line where the construction details vary from safe-to-safe. That doesn't mean the fire protection offered by a commercial safe is worthless though.

It's also worth pointing out that 99% of gun safes are using cut pieces of drywall/gypsum board for "fire insulation" which is lousy. Drywall was created as a cheap fire barrier, not fire insulation. There are a couple gun safe companies using a fiberous ceramic blanket-type fill, such as Sturdy Safe. And there is also AMSEC's BF series which uses two steel shells for their safe construction with a fire/mild security barrier filling the void formed between the two shells. This is derived from their commercial-line of composite safe construction and how all commercial safes (with the exception of plate-construction, typically depository or drop safes) are constructed. No other gun safe manufacturer I am aware of besides Graffunder is using the same composite construction. It's an expensive process and Graffunder charges accordingly for their product being a small-volume company.

Commercial safes that have a UL-rated fire rating use a composite fill that is moisture bearing. When in a fire, the moisture is driven out of the composite fill from the heat of the fire and forced into the safe's interior. The water vapor prevents the internal temperatures from rising to critical levels. The problem is this type of fill is meant for paper products to keep them from charring or burning, and why the 350F figure is seen so often as a safe level for keeping documents safe. If you used these as a gun safe, your guns will survive, but the wood might be warped and the steel possibly rusted because you're giving it a superheated steam bath.

There are lower-temperature UL listings specifically for sensitive digital or optical media. These types of safes are basically the same, but utilize several different barriers to further reduce the temperature and ultimately keep the stored contents dry. It's basically a fire safe inside a fire safe. They have incredibly thick walls and give you very little storage space. You can find media safes large enough to store guns, like a Schwab Databank with an internal and external set of locking doors, but they're very, very expensive. They don't offer protection like a burglary safe but they could probably pass the UL test for an RSC.

I have heard the exact things DPhillips has been saying regarding RSCs from several SAVTA and Clearstar members have been called out to open up these types of containers at residential fires. These are folks that routinely service the security needs of the commercial sector, which is a bit different than your generic locksmith popping car locks and making duplicate keys. They too own safes, but rely on them for burglary protection. They make the assumption guns will be lost in a fire and have their assets insured. I think burglary safes in general focus on security features to deter burglaries and any fire resistance offered by the composite fill are simply a bonus.

 

[TNtrg.300]

Re: Gun Safe

My neighbor and I are both shopping for safes together with the thought 2 purchases, one delivery may get us a better deal. We have been quoted what seems a fair price on 2 liberty fatboys(full size). Does anyone have any experience with this model and maybe one of comparable size. It is advertised as a 64 gun safe. Think 40 is more like it as I don't like my guns to snuggle.

 

[RGraff]

Re: Gun Safe

Cesiumsponge...In the spirit of not hijacking the thread any further (sorry OP) I sent you a pm.

 

[DPhillips62]

Re: Gun Safe

Let me explain my contribution to this thread and please forgive me if I tend to ramble. Most people do not understand the fire service, if you live in the city with a <span style="font-weight: bold">24 hr. manned</span> fire station right down the street with a quick response time by all means count on the safes claimed fire rating. But many of us live outside the city limits with volunteer fire dept. responding to our emergencies where it can take 20 + minuets (again from the time the fire dept. recieves the call to time they are flowing water) to arrive. Temps will exceed self proclaimed (no gun safe that I am aware of has a UL fire rating) fire ratings.

I am in no way putting down vol. fire departments they are every bit as compitant as the paid service but they are responding from another location to the fire station to get apparatus prior to responding (increase in response time) all the while temps inside the structure are rapidly increasing. now within 10 to 15 minuets something can occure called flashover this is when all contents in the fire involved room reach there ignition temp at the same time and begin burning violently flashover temps can and do often reach upwards of 1200 degrees that is floor to ceiling. Temps will continue to rise until the fire self vents through the roof, or the fire department arrives and starts cooling it. My point here is most fire rated gun safes can withstand some fire situations however a structure fire is not a controlled enviroment in which the safe was tested. if you want to increase the possibility of your family and prized firearms surviving install a residential sprinkler system. Or build a gun vault out of concrete and cinder block with an exterior door (weak point for fire).
Don't rely on that new $2,000 fort knox to keep your collection safe all by itself. And don't base your decision on which safe to purchase on it's non UL fire rateing unless you live down the street from the fire station.

 

[hmhoshino]

Re: Gun Safe

Patriot safes are rated to1880 degrees with a 2 hour fire rating. Is it almost too good to believe, I don't know. Guys let me know if you have one.
Henry

 

[SPfeiffer]

Re: Gun Safe

you are more likely to have guns stolen than burn.... best place for the safe is in the basement if you have one...

 

[Cesiumsponge]

Re: Gun Safe

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Henry M</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Patriot safes are rated to1880 degrees with a 2 hour fire rating. Is it almost too good to believe, I don't know. Guys let me know if you have one.
Henry </div></div>
I'd read between the lines to see what they're claiming and what's left out.

Patriot claims <span style="color: #000099">"1800° Pyro-Barrier plus U.L listed x-type fire rated fire board in "combination" give you an hour, up to 90 or 120 minutes of extreme fire protection, depending on which level of fire protection fits your needs."</span>

The specific claim made there is the <span style="font-style: italic">material itself </span>is UL listed. That is different than claiming the safe is UL fire rated. You will note the website doesn't have any lab results on actual fire testing of the safe itself by Underwriter's Laboratories or a lesser-known lab used by other safe companies like Omega Point (Liberty), Mercury (AMSEC's gun safes), or Intertek (Cannon). There is a neat graph, but no citation of where it comes from. Which lab was that from? Why do they record the ramp-up time as part of the fire rating when the UL throws safes in a preheated oven?

Also, you don't get any Google results for a "Pyro-Barrier" fire board material it claims to use.. The name "barrier" also suggests it as a fire barrier, not a fire insulator. There is a huge difference between stopping the spread of fire in a structure through the use of barriers and preventing a space from heating up. The closest thing I can find a match for is a Pyro-Flex® fire barrier material meant for covering expansion joints and gaps in commercial structures to stop the spread of fire, not insulate.

Also they chose not to use an established industry player like LaGard or S&G for UL-rated Group 1 or 2 security locks. They use a non UL-listed "X-2400 lock" which, when Googled, results in only their own products. This leads me to believe it's simply a Chinese electronic lock with a different fascia plate. Companies using LaGard or S&G and a UL lock will proudly use that fact in their marketing. Plenty of Chinese manufacturers offer products like this and depending on volume, will make your own fascia plate and give you a unique part number http://www.china-safelock.com/p-Safe-Locks-91457/.

The website seems big on advertising but there is actually very little information on the security features of the products. Seriously..."tactical lighting"? You mean interior lights? They go on to make fun of 12ga safe competitors being useful for only keeping out kids while promoting their 10ga. The difference in thickness is seven sheets of printer paper. Everything is labeled as "TOP SECRET CLASSIFIED".

 

[Jackalope33B]

Re: Gun Safe

If your safe is in the middle of your house with LOTS of "fuel" around it, then yea, the temp will reach 1500+ deg.. Your best bet is to place the safe against an outside wall (corner of a house) that way there is less fuel if your house catches on fire. What may be 1500+deg in the middle of the house with everything burning around it, the temp will be alot less in the corner..

 

[fireEMT5]

Re: Gun Safe

Most homes contain plenty of fire fuel load and most homes built in the last 20 years are pretty tight and well insulated...... so just because you put your safe in a corner or outside wall is no guarantee that room isn't going to rise to critical temperatures should a fire occur. If enough fuel is present in any room, along with enough oxygen to support combustion the size of said fire will roughly double in size every minute (free burning stage) until either the fuel is consumed, or the fire runs short on oxygen. With enough oxygen and fuel present it doesn't take long for a room to rise to it's ignition temperature at which point everything combustible in the room bursts into flames, drastically raising the temp in the entire space - outside corners included.

One should also think about how close to a outside door or window the safe is placed too. If a fire in that room "vents" itself and breaches a door or window, a fresh supply of oxygen is provided allowing the fire to grow rapidly. Just think about the last house fire you saw on the evening news with flames raging out a busted window or open door.... think blow torch here.

If possible place safe in the basement, preferably in a room with block or concrete walls and keep as much combustible material out of your safe room as you can. If you have plumbing lines running through your basement joists and they are accessable, it's cheap and easy to install a sprinkler head which would go a long ways in keeping things cool or help keep any fire at least in check until the red trucks show up.

Given that water when converted to steam expands approx. 1700:1 a sprinkler head flowing and cooling provides a higher margin of "feel good" than worrying about the insulation value or moisture content of a couple pieces of gypsm fire board. Yes, they will give up their moisture and covert it to steam if the temps get high enough, but once they give up that moisture that's it.

Another thing to consider is that most of us are fairly anal about keeping the climate that our safes sit in as dry as possible. We put dehumidifers and golden rods inside them, and if the safes are in a basement or other place in doors (most garages excluded) we run a dehumidifer in the basement or room the safe sits in to keep the humidity level as low as we want to...... Well guess what folks, we're doing all we can to suck up all the moisture inside and outside of the safe. Anyone consider just for a second that this might have some effect on the fire board that's supposedly the end all be all inside your safe? I'm sure that board is still hanging on to some moisture, but I'll be sticking with a couple sprinkler heads myself.

I didn't stay a Holiday Inn last night either, but I do have 22 years on a paid fire dept. and agree with all DPhillips said above.

 

[mastermason6]

Re: Gun Safe

Amsec and have it bolted to your foundation!!

 

[Cesiumsponge]

Re: Gun Safe

Fires are unpredictable things.

You can be a wishful thinker but prepare for the worst. That's what insurance is for. You could end up on the front page of a gun safe company as a success story if your guns survive. Or end up like this guy. You never really hear about the gun safes that don't make it because gun safe companies won't promote these, obviously. You'll have to talk to firemen, safe techs, and locksmiths that pop these open. The fact of the matter is house fires just aren't that common all things considered, and considering the vast numbers of gun safe manufacturers out there taking up a small slice of the gun safe market's pie, so to speak, a lifetime warranty for replacement isn't that difficult to offer when the chance your product will be burnt or hacked into by a burglar are pretty slim. You're not really paying out that often.

The drywall in a house isn't saving your house from burning down. It tends to do a very poor job saving your guns in a gun safe too.

 

[Jackalope33B]

Re: Gun Safe

So what safe is this one? Looks like a Winchester Safe from Walmart.. Lets see burnt safes from a reputable company..

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Cesiumsponge</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Fires are unpredictable things.

You can be a wishful thinker but prepare for the worst. That's what insurance is for. You could end up on the front page of a gun safe company as a success story if your guns survive. Or end up like this guy. You never really hear about the gun safes that don't make it because gun safe companies won't promote these, obviously. You'll have to talk to firemen, safe techs, and locksmiths that pop these open. The fact of the matter is house fires just aren't that common all things considered, and considering the vast numbers of gun safe manufacturers out there taking up a small slice of the gun safe market's pie, so to speak, a lifetime warranty for replacement isn't that difficult to offer when the chance your product will be burnt or hacked into by a burglar are pretty slim. You're not really paying out that often.

The drywall in a house isn't saving your house from burning down. It tends to do a very poor job saving your guns in a gun safe too. </div></div>

 

[den42]

Re: Gun Safe

its already been said but it is true, buy bigger then you think you need or as big as you can, bought a liberty (nice safe) but after my wife wanted to store her camera equipment in there also...well its full already.. need a bigger one!!!

 

[luckyshot27]

Re: Gun Safe

damm crazy.hope i dont see any of my baby like that

 

[Defcon424]

Re: Gun Safe

The winchester safes that sell for around 600-700 bux have a 1400 degree 30 minute fire rating compared to 1200 for 30 mins like most other budget safes. They seem like a fine quality RSC for the money

 

[redhooker]

Re: Gun Safe

This is a short video on a Griffin safe. Concrete lined it is one of the best offerings for fire "protection" but still has quite a bit of damage to the contents. One of the most honest presentations by any manufacturer. This safe might work if it is a small fire contained quickly. I too have seen first hand the results of a good structure fire (10+ years in the fire service)and it would take substantial construction of a vault to prevent any damage from fire. I find it difficult to believe any steel box you can bolt to the floor will prevent your valuables from being damaged.

<object width="425" height="350"> <param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/1BOQ3oM8z8w"></param> <param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param> <embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/1BOQ3oM8z8w" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"> </embed></object>

I personally would rather the guns be a total loss and collect the insurance.

 

[a220stw]

Re: Gun Safe

guys i speak from experience,
i walked in to my house to find my gun safe destroy. all my shit gone.
if you want your shit wrapped in sheets of tin around particle bourd go ahead. i learned the hard way
after that i did some research.
narrowed it down to "security products" in waco,tx
and "sturdy safes" in sacramento ca
safes are made from steel, not sheets of tin
ceramic fire lining. built how ever you want
spend the money once.
cause the insurance check wont be what you think it is

 

[Jackalope33B]

Re: Gun Safe

+1 on the insurance.. My Insurance comp will only value up to $2000. after that, your SOL! But they will sell you "Firearms" insurance for a good premium! It was like another $300 a year for $10k in coverage, + they want detail description of each firearm you own! FUck that I said!
I think the NRA has insurance, but not sure how much or what info they need..

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: a220stw</div><div class="ubbcode-body">guys i speak from experience,
i walked in to my house to find my gun safe destroy. all my shit gone.
if you want your shit wrapped in sheets of tin around particle bourd go ahead. i learned the hard way
after that i did some research.
narrowed it down to "security products" in waco,tx
and "sturdy safes" in sacramento ca
safes are made from steel, not sheets of tin
ceramic fire lining. built how ever you want
spend the money once.
<span style="color: #FF0000">cause the insurance check wont be what you think it is </span></div></div>

 

[gimpy]

Re: Gun Safe

Looked at the Liberty safes when I was in the market. Ended up with a Superior instead. I didn't like the composite door set flush with the frame. Its one of these.

 

[hmhoshino]

Re: Gun Safe

I finally put in my order for a Patriot 1880 Collector 2HLeo 39 gun safe. One thing I really liked about the safe is that it has a electronic key pad and two keys to get into the safe. The two keys allow immediate entry of safe bypassing the access code. Another thing I like is the lifetime warranty. Unlike some of the other safe company's that have limited warranty's.

Hope fully I will not regret my decision.

 

[RockKrawler]

Re: Gun Safe

http://snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2688378

3rd post has some pictures of a Graffunder safe that went through a fire in Alaska,looks like the guns came through pretty well.

 

[10generation]

Re: Gun Safe

To go back to the original post, I have the GunVault biometric handgun safe. Its has worked flawlessly so far and its great not to have a combination or key. Not cheap, but you can keep it next to a bed and not worry about someone getting access to your gun, but you can get it out quickly.

Only downside is a small beep when opening, would like to eliminate that, but have not spent the time to try and figure out if possible.

http://www.gunvault.com/microvault-biometric-mvb500.html

 

[Defcon424]

Re: Gun Safe

on a side note , if u really wanna safe that works for not alot of money, contact a locksmith or jeweler . You can get a safe that weighs a few thousand pounds for under 500 bux that way. And there isnt a smash and grab thief alive that will make off with a safe like that or get into it.

 

[Elnino31]

Re: Gun Safe

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Defcon424</div><div class="ubbcode-body">on a side note , if u really wanna safe that works for not alot of money, contact a locksmith or jeweler . You can get a safe that weighs a few thousand pounds for under 500 bux that way. And there isnt a smash and grab thief alive that will make off with a safe like that or get into it.</div></div>

A couple of thousand pounds??? Did you mean a couple of hundred?

How the hell are you going to move a couple of thousand pounds around in a house or up/down stairs? If I remember correctly, without the door mine was 450lbs and was a real bitch to get upstairs.

 

[Cesiumsponge]

Re: Gun Safe

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Elnino31</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
A couple of thousand pounds??? Did you mean a couple of hundred?

How the hell are you going to move a couple of thousand pounds around in a house or up/down stairs? If I remember correctly, without the door mine was 450lbs and was a real bitch to get upstairs.
</div></div>

This statement demonstrates why the gun safe industry is built on sheet metal boxes.

Convenience wins over actual security for most consumers. Weight, biometrics, keys, etc. There is nothing wrong with this as long as you know the limitations of the container you're using. Manufacturer claims are generally worthless unless its backed by the UL, in my opinion. It's curious every gun safe company uses a different third party lab for fire ratings...that way you can't make an actual apples-to-apples comparison across brands.

I'm guessing the previous poster suggested used or refurbished safes since you can't buy a gun safe-sized commercial safe brand new for $500. The difference between a sub-1000lb consumer RSC and a 3500-8000lb commercial safe is 2-3 tons of additional security and fire resistance (in the case of a composite safe). The downside is it requires a professional security company to move and install. Obviously the weight limits your installation locations. If you need this level of security, then you will pay for this service gladly. Just don't tell yourself an RSC is remotely tough as a commercial safe. It isn't, or your gun safe would be rated TL-15 or higher.

 

[jeo556]

Re: Gun Safe

Just to give you guys an heads-up. When looking into buying a safe I contacted
this place to get some prices on used comercial safes. If you are going to spend the money on a guffunder or the like you may want to look into a refurbished comercial safe. It may be a better option.