Gunbroker - protection as a buyer?

[enichols]

Hello Hide,
I've tried using the search feature on this topic before, but am not finding a great answer (possibly my search-fu is weak). I am looking at a good deal on a rifle that I want on Gunbroker (Sako TRG22), and it is being sold by a private individual. The seller wants certified check or money order for payment. I understand why he would not want to use PayPal, but as a buyer I'm not 100% comfortable sending that amount of money to an individual via check or MO. I've only ever purchased much less expensive items from GB, usually from retail stores having an auction, and almost always when I can use my CC for payment. For what it's worth, this particular seller has 43 A+ ratings (12 as a seller, the rest as a buyer).

Is there any way to protect myself as a buyer using postal MO or certified check as payment? If it were a less expensive item I would not be so hesitant, but it's a lot of dough to be sending.

Thanks for any help you can give me.

 

[918v]

You could use an online escrow service.

 

[Tactical_Tom]

I am starting to think Zelle is a good option it has low or no fees and is becoming more common.

 

[1911hombre]

With that particular feedback, I would not hesitate. Postal Money Order through the mail. Double federal felony potential. I've never had a problem on GunBroker and don't know anybody who's been taken.

 

[Waorani]

That's just part of buying on GB. You've got to make decision based on how long seller has been member and feedback. Agree w/ above that level of + feedback you're probably good to go. If the risk bothers you, don't do it. I've bought a bunch on GB and never had any problems. Only issues I've had have been have been with new/low feedback buyers bidding stuff up and then not paying.

ETA - Think I found the listing you're talking about. Given seller history, if I were in the market and price is right, I'd bid on it. You can also ask for phone # and give him a call.

 

[Samuel Whittemore]

I second that.... look at his feedback... if it's the same auction, looks like 16 positives. 1 negative. Even the negative wasn't that bad. Make sure the address you're sending payment to is a verifiable address. Google it and then make sure you can see the home/building on Gooigle Street view. Have him show you a utility bill with his name and address on it. Then at least you know where to go hunt him down if it goes up missing. I'm about to make a buy for a Ruger myself. Oh and send it certified so he has to physically sign for it. Most people are smart enough not to F with FBI Mail fraud when it comes to guns ... and/or ATF.

 

[BCMulx]

Zelle doesn't have any protection for the buyer. Pretty sure a transaction is not reversible. Good for sellers though from my understanding.

Personally, I'd talk to him on the phone, get a confirmed address, and use a USPS money order. He doesn't deliver I believe it then becomes Mail Fraud and investigable by a USPS inspector. I've heard of people using the USPS to "visit" someone as part of an investigation / complaint, but that's second hand...

 

[hermosabeach]

Standard stuff

look at feedback - are they always the buyer of cheap items to build feedback fast
When did they join?

I prefer to call and get the backstory on the item. Do they sound legit?
Google search images- are they found elsewhere or are they pics the seller took?

greed overrides logic- too good of a deal should trigger more caution.

 

[Jgunner]

Lots of money order scams, guys who give out their phone number, photos of id. Had a scammer try to get me last year, smelled off from the start, i would be willing to bet he would take most guys money off here. He even sent me to “his” youtube account. I backed out of a purchase because of cashiers check/mo only. Guy was probably legit, but i can do without losing money.

 

[hlfazn]

You have to trust your gut in these situations. I've only bought from individuals who were willing to provide name, phone and address before I placed a bid.

If they aren't willing yo make you feel comfortable then it's either a scam or they're just an asshole and it's not worth your time IMHO.

 

[davsco]

yes, look at their feedback and how long on gb (similar to post count here and similar forums). and contact them for details and see if and how they respond to you. usps money order supposedly provides good protection. can also ask them to zap you a photo with their name, email and/or phone number on a piece of paper included in the pic, just to help rule out a cut&paste from a legit seller.

 

[Darkside-Six]

I would say buy at your own risk. Have a friend who is a co-worked of my wife and a local police officer going through this very same issue right now. Bought a gun on GB and paid with a certified cashiers check. Seller had good feedback, 100% positive reviews and been on there for years. Sent the guy the money after looking into his address and everything was legit. Now it’s going on 2 months with zero replies from the guy but the seller has made other purchases on GB so still active. He contacted the FBI and has gotten nothing. Contacted local sheriffs dept of where the seller lives and gotten nothing. Been calling to follow up and gotten nothing but the run around. And the amount was almost $3000. Seems like nobody really cares unless it’s someone defrauding people out of million. Fucking sucks.

 

[FreddyG]

Gunbroker can be hit or miss. Definitely talk to them on the phone. If they don’t want to, there is a reason.

 

[BytorJr]

Let me tell you. I used gunsamerica and got taken for a nice 2K!!!!!!!!! I used Zelle too which according to my bank was THE WORST mistake of the multiple mistakes I made. Zelle gives ZERO protection and they apparently can backtrack into your bank account itself if they're smart enough.

I for one will never ever be tempted by any gun on gunsamerica, gunbroker, gunsinternational. Instead, I'll call the place selling the item if I was so inclined and ONLY do a credit card purchase. The motherfucker who stole from me was back on gunsamerica with same item less than 48 hours later. I tracked that down to a florida address. My local PD laughed at me. For two reasons...1) the said they'd have made the same mistake, 2) they did a cursory glance at my "evidence" and said...the guy is long gone. Even with the Zelle account it went into...the account was immediately closed as soon as they got the money and it apparently was a fake SSN used to open it.

I talked to a former FBI SSA too...they didn't think the local FBI would look at it because of the amount. However, I explained that the same item was on GA again...that they were multiple offenders...nope...still not enough. (they'd rather be making another fake document and FISA courts IMO). This is EXACTLY what the FBI was for!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! EXACTLY. Fraud over state lines....that's a FEDERAL police action.

 

[craigos]

GB has buyers protection and i have used it. If you stick to the rules, ensure all comms are through their platform so they can trace it all and the other dude does something stupid they will step in.

 

[Sniperwannabee]

Gun Broker has their own buyers protection!! For up to $400

Buyer's Protection Plan (BPP) Limitations and Restrictions

Under the Buyer’s Protection Program (the “BPP”), all claims under the BPP (“BPP Claims”) are subject to the following limitations, all of which are strictly enforced by GunBroker.com: Single Item: BPP Claims may only be filed on a single auction or a single purchase transaction. Where Buyer...

www.gunbroker.com

 

[Darkside-Six]

Yeah Gunbrokers buyer protection is inky up to $400-500 and they are a pain in the ass to work with and get a hold of.

 

[KSshorthair]

Glad I saw this. I just sold a Staccato C to a gal down in Texastown USA. She sounded legit and bought it now on my Gb listing. We talked through all of the deets and she kept waffling on payment. She finally went dark. Never sent the gun but had a real bitch of a time getting my listing fees back from Gb. It isn't like it used to be out there. Lots of people of low character. Venmo might be a good option.

Conversely- I had a guy from whom I bought some 77 grain say he never got mu postal money order. Now I have to make sure he isn't FOS

Those are my two latest gun broker adventures... It is fun to look at all of the shiny objects though.

 

[346ci]

Using pp or venmo is no good on GB if a problem exists, most of the stuff sold there will get your account locked due to their commie rules. I've been burned with stolen credit cards also.

Feedback is going to be your best bet, hope that the seller likes their rating and will honor the deal.

With GB starting to charge tax, I can see fourms like these gaining popularity for their PX but that also brings more scammers.

 

[unrepentant]

I used to work at the post office, so my experience is my testimony. Send only a certified check by US REGISTERED MAIL. It's expensive and slow, but almost infallible. "Certified" guarantees the banks track the transaction from your account into his/her account. Registered Mail up to $50,000 is damn near as good as a bonded courier... it's the USPS bread and butter feature--everyone who handles a Registered package has to sign for it including the addressee. Each employee can prove to whom he released his responsibility.

The addressee must submit ID in order to take delivery. "No ID" is the liability of the last postal employee. A release of Registered Mail without documentation by the last employee 1) can get the employee fired, 2) makes the USPS liable for the value of the package. Postal Inspectors get real scratchy when RM "disappears"--they track that down to a resolution--either they find the mistake/lost link, or they find the fraudster. Most times, people dealing with Federal pressure make restitution; the alternative is usually pretty intimidating.

Whenever I've sent a large amount of cash, I've always emailed the seller with proof that I bought a certified check and proof that I mailed it by RM. My explanation is "it's slow but 100% reliable; you wouldn't want to have to question if my payment 'got lost', and I don't care if it takes an extra few days to arrive." No one has ever argued with that logic.

 

[Vodoun daVinci]

I used to work at the post office, so my experience is my testimony. Send only a certified check by US REGISTERED MAIL. It's expensive and slow, but almost infallible. "Certified" guarantees the banks track the transaction from your account into his/her account. Registered Mail up to $50,000 is damn near as good as a bonded courier... it's the USPS bread and butter feature--everyone who handles a Registered package has to sign for it including the addressee. Each employee can prove to whom he released his responsibility.

The addressee must submit ID in order to take delivery. "No ID" is the liability of the last postal employee. A release of Registered Mail without documentation by the last employee 1) can get the employee fired, 2) makes the USPS liable for the value of the package. Postal Inspectors get real scratchy when RM "disappears"--they track that down to a resolution--either they find the mistake/lost link, or they find the fraudster. Most times, people dealing with Federal pressure make restitution; the alternative is usually pretty intimidating.

Whenever I've sent a large amount of cash, I've always emailed the seller with proof that I bought a certified check and proof that I mailed it by RM. My explanation is "it's slow but 100% reliable; you wouldn't want to have to question if my payment 'got lost', and I don't care if it takes an extra few days to arrive." No one has ever argued with that logic.

This is how I have always done it....I have purchased a bunch of guns off of Gunbroker and never had an issue. When I sell I insist that the buyer pay me with a Postal Money Order sent Certified Mail and tout this as protection for all involved. If one tampers with a Postal Money Order it is a Federal offense and it *will* be tracked and investigated if there is any hanky panky.

VooDoo

 

[Missalot]

Whenever I've sent a large amount of cash, I've always emailed the seller with proof that I bought a certified check and proof that I mailed it by RM. My explanation is "it's slow but 100% reliable; you wouldn't want to have to question if my payment 'got lost', and I don't care if it takes an extra few days to arrive." No one has ever argued with that logic.

This is very interesting. Do you use a certified check or get a cashier's check drawn on your bank? I would think a cashier's check would be better.

 

[Tactical_Tom]

I think postal money orders are still kind of the safest they need to show ID to cash one and its a federal crime to use of for fraud. Wants funny is people thinking PayPal will protect them PayPal with laugh at you and be glad you lost your money buying dirty gun stuff.

 

[unrepentant]

This is very interesting. Do you use a certified check or get a cashier's check drawn on your bank? I would think a cashier's check would be better.

At the banks I've used (Wells Fargo, B/A, BancorpSouth) the term "certified check" and "cashier's check" are interchangeable--that is, all three said both terms meant the same document.

AS TO USPS MONEY ORDER "SAFETY":
I forgot to mention the reason not to use USPS MOs--their "security" measures are dismal. Updated hot sheets listing the stolen/missing MOs are commonly out of date: read that, 3wk- months behind current status (depends on the remoteness of the branch since the list is not electronic). Secondly, if a MO is lost or missing one must wait 30 or 45 days (I forget which) before filing a claim, which costs at least $6.25. At last knowledge, the supposedly routine response time was 60 days from the filing date of a missing MO application. If your mail got "lost", you only have to wait 2 days from the date of issue to ask a bank to inquire about a cashier's/certified -check's status, and it costs nothing.

By the way, try getting the Post Office to refund you for a MO after a false ID has cashed it (or if it's been cashed under false pretenses). You're in for a treat only rivaled by hold time on the phone with the IRS on a gubment holiday.

THE PROBLEM WITH "CERTIFIED" is there is no accountability. If it gets lost the post office will try to track it down (by checking with the delivery carrier "did you deliver this? where's the signature?"), but in the meantime all you get is "Oops, we're sorry." If it's not found within the USPS guideline deadline the response is, "here's a refund for your postage. Your CERTIFIED is officially 'lost'; no further investigation will be done."

As I said, Postal Inspectors only get real serious with Registered Mail. They can track RM mail from waypoint-to-waypoint down to who handled the RM within a branch and who locked it in the safe overnight. That doesn't happen with Certifieds. They'll track cashier's/certified checks through bank accounts as a normal procedure, but mention that it's "ATF"-related, and flares go up. They'll get complete and total cooperation from *every* employee who handled the RM, and banks don't usually blow off Federal postal inspectors.

 

[Darkside-Six]

At the banks I've used (Wells Fargo, B/A, BancorpSouth) the term "certified check" and "cashier's check" are interchangeable--that is, all three said both terms meant the same document.

AS TO USPS MONEY ORDER "SAFETY":
I forgot to mention the reason not to use USPS MOs--their "security" measures are dismal. Updated hot sheets listing the stolen/missing MOs are commonly out of date: read that, 3wk- months behind current status (depends on the remoteness of the branch since the list is not electronic). Secondly, if a MO is lost or missing one must wait 30 or 45 days (I forget which) before filing a claim, which costs $6.25. At last knowledge, the supposedly routine response time was 60 days from the filing date of a missing MO application. If your mail got "lost", you only have to wait 2 days from the date of issue to ask a bank to inquire about a cashier's/certified -check's status, and it costs nothing.

By the way, try getting the Post Office to refund you for a MO after a false ID has cashed it (or if it's been cashed under false pretenses). You're in for a treat only rivaled by hold time on the phone with the IRS on a gubment holiday.

THE PROBLEM WITH "CERTIFIED" is there is no accountability. If it gets lost the post office will try to track it down (by checking with the delivery carrier "did you deliver this? where's the signature?"), but in the meantime all you get is "Oops, we're sorry." If it's not found within the USPS guideline deadline the response is, "here's a refund for your postage. Your CERTIFIED is officially 'lost'; no further investigation will be done."

As I said, Postal Inspectors only get real serious with Registered Mail. They can track RM mail from waypoint-to-waypoint down to who handled the RM within a branch and who locked it in the safe overnight. That doesn't happen with Certifieds. They'll track cashier's/certified checks through bank accounts as a normal procedure, but mention that it's "ATF"-related, and flares go up. They'll get complete and total cooperation from *every* employee who handled the RM, and banks don't usually blow off Federal postal inspectors.

Interesting points. So if a buyer uses a certified/cashiers check and seller just up and takes his money, what recourse can he actually do then?

 

[unrepentant]

Interesting points. So if a buyer uses a certified/cashiers check and seller just up and takes his money, what recourse can he actually do then?

"... and just takes his money, what recourse can he actually do then?"

Report it to the Postal Inspectors as a fraudulent FIREARMS (related, if in fact, it is) transaction within Registered Mail. Nuffin like seeing the ATF and USPS Pinspectors cooperate.

 

[Darkside-Six]

"... and just takes his money, what recourse can he actually do then?"

Report it to the Postal Inspectors as a fraudulent FIREARMS (related, if in fact, it is) transaction within Registered Mail. Nuffin like seeing the ATF and USPS Pinspectors cooperate.

Well he’s contacted the ATF and gotten nowhere. And he didn’t send it certified mail so there was no signature or any of that. Beginning to look liked he’s just fucked.

 

[FreddyG]

Relying on postal/ATF workers to do their job, is like relying on the MSM to report factual news. It’s not happening. Don’t get in this situation in the first place. If something is amiss, run. A good deal isn’t a good deal if you don’t get the item you paid for.

 

[Peterpan]

hate to break it to the op but if using paypal and you mention it’s firearm related your on you own and the will end your account. paypal is very anti gun.

 

[Douglas-001]

Used Gunbroker in the past with great results on a few substantial purchases. Always did my homework and sniffed around before moving forward. Sadly, it looks like I may have got burned on some ammo. Found some 12 gauge slugs (I let my friend use the last of my sluggos, and a shotgun for this past deer season, he's on his way to Okinawa for 3 years) and again I followed the sellers feedback, pricing, and length of membership. A few days later I put a bid on them and won. I get an email from this dude asking if I received the correct items? He thinks he got them mixed up and sent out the wrong items. I replied that I have not received anything. I have my suspicions.........win some...lose some....I reckon it will catch up with him sooner or later.

 

[unrepentant]

Well he’s contacted the ATF and gotten nowhere. And he didn’t send it certified mail so there was no signature or any of that. Beginning to look liked he’s just fucked.

It's the other way around. ATF won't investigate mail fraud. The Postal Inspectors have to initiate the investigation; then if they find there's an actual firearm (or explosives) involved, they'll contact ATF and continue together. If he sent it just end-to-end regular mail if he's got a cancelled check he still might have recourse with the PI. If he sent a MO, he's definitely fucked.

 

[HousePlant]

I would say buy at your own risk. Have a friend who is a co-worked of my wife and a local police officer going through this very same issue right now. Bought a gun on GB and paid with a certified cashiers check. Seller had good feedback, 100% positive reviews and been on there for years. Sent the guy the money after looking into his address and everything was legit. Now it’s going on 2 months with zero replies from the guy but the seller has made other purchases on GB so still active. He contacted the FBI and has gotten nothing. Contacted local sheriffs dept of where the seller lives and gotten nothing. Been calling to follow up and gotten nothing but the run around. And the amount was almost $3000. Seems like nobody really cares unless it’s someone defrauding people out of million. Fucking sucks.

He should be filing a small claims case and implicating GunBroker in the case, as well.