Gunsmith etiquette

#51
GreatWhiteTatanka said:
Guys... I am reading a lot of complaining and talk of how simple the work is but I haven't heard any of you talk about the tools and equipment needed to perform the work. Lathe, Mill, reamers, tooling, barrel vise, action wrenches, gauges, punches, bench grinders, belt sanders, hand tools and not to mention the specialty tools required for certain jobs. All of this comes at a huge price. It's a craftsman trade for sure. Yes anyone can do most of the stuff with practice and training. However, I don't see many of you taking on the task. Alibi: I am not referring to slapping an AR together.... that isn't armorer work.
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www.snipershide.com

Gunsmith etiquette

When, if ever, is the right time to check in on the progress of a build? Dropped one off in February and there was a 16 week lead time on the barrel. REM 700 action to get trued as well as threading and chambering. I’m not rushing, I’m just curious. My first foray into this.
www.snipershide.com www.snipershide.com
 
#55
GreatWhiteTatanka said:
Guys... I am reading a lot of complaining and talk of how simple the work is but I haven't heard any of you talk about the tools and equipment needed to perform the work. Lathe, Mill, reamers, tooling, barrel vise, action wrenches, gauges, punches, bench grinders, belt sanders, hand tools and not to mention the specialty tools required for certain jobs. All of this comes at a huge price. It's a craftsman trade for sure. Yes anyone can do most of the stuff with practice and training. However, I don't see many of you taking on the task. Alibi: I am not referring to slapping an AR together.... that isn't armorer work.
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This is a valid point.... Similar to the auto industry forcing owners to take a vehicle to the authorized dealer to get the computer program reset. A shade tree mechanic can not afford the diagnostic equipment just to do one vehicle.

The armor's have been around for thousands of years... This trade evolved into the gunsmiths... America has evolved away from having a young person apprentice under a craftsman to learn a trade. Today's trade schools teach very little about the "trade". Our apprentices went to school 3 nights a week but learned the trade by working with journeymen during the work week.

A true craftsman will gather the tools of the trade as he progresses in the trade.
 
#56
GreatWhiteTatanka said:
Guys... I am reading a lot of complaining and talk of how simple the work is but I haven't heard any of you talk about the tools and equipment needed to perform the work. Lathe, Mill, reamers, tooling, barrel vise, action wrenches, gauges, punches, bench grinders, belt sanders, hand tools and not to mention the specialty tools required for certain jobs. All of this comes at a huge price. It's a craftsman trade for sure. Yes anyone can do most of the stuff with practice and training. However, I don't see many of you taking on the task. Alibi: I am not referring to slapping an AR together.... that isn't armorer work.
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I respect the hell out of smiths and the skills they possess; far beyond my capability. That being said, smiths get paid for what they do; some quite handsomely. As a customer, I recognize the one man shop factor and how part of the craft isn't being a master scheduler, so I always give those I work with some fudge factor forgiveness, versus their commit dates. But when a smith promises me 6-8 weeks in June and I don't get my gun back, with a new slide, until the end of October, someone's head's coming off. It got pulled off again, when the damned thing didn't extract. That sort of thing's only happened once across the number of guns I've had built, but it's always the bad experiences people talk about.
 
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#58
In the case of both McMillan and Douglas, product that required several intricate machining jobs was shipped in no time at all (receipt in 5 weeks and 5 days, respectively) whereas most gunsmiths have no plan for getting product out the door. They will talk about first come first served but it is just talk in my experience. They typically work on their favorites first. And, I’m referring to numerous gunsmiths over the last 45 years, not just my latest aggravation.
 
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#59
GreatWhiteTatanka said:
Guys... I am reading a lot of complaining and talk of how simple the work is but I haven't heard any of you talk about the tools and equipment needed to perform the work. Lathe, Mill, reamers, tooling, barrel vise, action wrenches, gauges, punches, bench grinders, belt sanders, hand tools and not to mention the specialty tools required for certain jobs. All of this comes at a huge price. It's a craftsman trade for sure. Yes anyone can do most of the stuff with practice and training. However, I don't see many of you taking on the task. Alibi: I am not referring to slapping an AR together.... that isn't armorer work.
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Its a fair point. However, just like someone people think that having money entitles some people to behave very poorly to others, sometimes skills do the same thing.

There's being a good craftsman and being a good businessman. You can be the best craftsman in the world, but treat your customers like crap--well, they'll find someone who doesn't.

I once worked with a big-shot for a fortune 10 company. He was even Linkedin influencer, DC Exec of the year, blah blah blah. He treated everyone like complete dog****. I took the time to help my customers.
Guess who got asked to leave.....

And I'm a nobody...

I've barely made manager.
(he also didn't know DICK about the subject that he was exec of the year in!)
 
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#60
There is a reason for the explosion of prefit and quick change barrel systems.
Over the last 15 years I have had dozens of rifles built and rebarreled by a number of well known smiths. No matter what they say, I expect 6-12 months and I am usually right.
There is a bit of a phenomenon with smiths and timelines that I haven’t experienced with other skilled trades.
 
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#63
GreatWhiteTatanka said:
Guys... I am reading a lot of complaining and talk of how simple the work is but I haven't heard any of you talk about the tools and equipment needed to perform the work. Lathe, Mill, reamers, tooling, barrel vise, action wrenches, gauges, punches, bench grinders, belt sanders, hand tools and not to mention the specialty tools required for certain jobs. All of this comes at a huge price. It's a craftsman trade for sure. Yes anyone can do most of the stuff with practice and training. However, I don't see many of you taking on the task. Alibi: I am not referring to slapping an AR together.... that isn't armorer work.
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I don't care how simple or complex the work is.

I want a delivery date. I expect a delivery date to be kept.

If the date can't be met, I want to be notified that it won't be as soon as the contractor knows he can't meet it. At that point options will be discussed and alternative arrangements will be made.

That's how professionals work.
 
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#64
Sent a barreled action and new barrel blank to get rebarreled at a well known shop over the summer. Was told 3-4mo. In a couple weeks it'll be 4mo. I think it's appropriate to give them the benefit of the doubt for the timeline they set my expectations to and I can understand if they go over some due to the current state of affairs we all find ourselves in but I will be calling at the time my expectations were set to for an update which needs to be reasonable if I don't hear before then. Given I provided the needed supplies, there should be no reason for an extended delay. This is a good reputable shop so expecting good outcomes. If I was at 6mo over expectations I'd be telling them to send my parts back or I'll show up to get them.
 
#66
Dot3 said:
There’s no deadline that hasn’t been met because there was no deadline to meet.
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So why are you here asking for advice about when to call to find out when your project will be done?

If there are no deadlines, who cares? You get it when he decides you get it.
 
#67
308pirate said:
So why are you here asking for advice about when to call to find out when your project will be done?

If there are no deadlines, who cares? You get it when he decides you get it.
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If there was a deadline, I wouldn’t be curious about the appropriateness of a call. I’d call on the deadline. Thanks for the input though
 
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#68
I and a number of my friends have had a good number of dealings with custom gunsmiths, engravers, and stock smiths...mostly on shotguns.

In a number of cases, particularly if the work is somewhat specialized like with a vintage SxS, the gun just disappears for 3 years and they will not adhere to any schedule or communicate progress.

But I have also dealt with the same type of craftsman who did exactly what they promised, when they promised, for the price they promised.

Its just a fact that many highly skilled craftsman and artisans are great at their trade but just suck at actually running a business.

Others recognize that they are a business like any others and interact with their customers accordingly.

I was a PM in the telecom core network industry. Worked for companies like Ericsson building out large scale mobile networks, etc.

I'm a nobody...nothing special about what me or what I did.

But the projects I worked on had much greater unknowns and risks but nonetheless I and my employer were absolutely required to propose a schedule and then meet it.

If for some reason the schedule was not going to be met (and there were a lot of factors dependent on the customer org and out of our control), we damn well needed to communicate that....and NOT the day before the scheduled completion date. Were were absolutely expected to communicate why, what our new completion date was, and then status the customer along the way.

Now, these were big companies and not like a small gunsmithing business. But still, IMO, any craftsman should be expected to be able to set a completion date when they take in work and then meet it or communicate why not and the new "when".

Those that do, know how to run a business. Those that do not...well, they don't.

Can't paint all gun craftsman with the same broad brush but schedule commitment and fulfillment is, IMO, entirely doable even by one many shops and there is no valid excuse to not doing so.

Caveat: This excludes the very unknowns of when parts may come in from other vendors.....but IMO applies utterly if the customer supplies the components.

Cheers
 
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#69
I have learned that when I drop off my stuff to ask for a date that it will be completed. I give them one chance if they miss that date and then I move on.

The first custom rifle that I had done, the gunsmith said 4-6 weeks. After 8 weeks I followed up. He said two more weeks and when I followed up he said another 2 weeks. This went on several more times until I threatened to come pick up my stuff and take it elsewhere. He got it done in 3 days and the rifle shot really well. I ended up giving him another try and he turned that project around in 4 weeks.

The last build I did with a newer gunsmith that is much closer to home and has a good reputation. He said 3 to 5 days, which I was surprised because he had 6 or 7 rifles in the rack waiting. He had it done in 3 days and it also shoots well.
 
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#70
GreatWhiteTatanka said:
Guys... I am reading a lot of complaining and talk of how simple the work is but I haven't heard any of you talk about the tools and equipment needed to perform the work. Lathe, Mill, reamers, tooling, barrel vise, action wrenches, gauges, punches, bench grinders, belt sanders, hand tools and not to mention the specialty tools required for certain jobs. All of this comes at a huge price. It's a craftsman trade for sure. Yes anyone can do most of the stuff with practice and training. However, I don't see many of you taking on the task. Alibi: I am not referring to slapping an AR together.... that isn't armorer work.
Click to expand...
Good thing brain surgeons don’t play by these same rules. They also have a lot of time and money invested in their trade but seem to be able to complete projects within a reasonable time and without taking a lunch break.

I once heard it said that the difference between mechanics and surgeons is that surgeons perform their work while the engine is running.
 
#71
Dot3 said:
If there was a deadline, I wouldn’t be curious about the appropriateness of a call. I’d call on the deadline. Thanks for the input though
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Who cares what others think? If you want an eta on your build, just call. Very simple; a thread on this is not necessary
 
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#72
Hobo Hilton said:
I have always enjoyed the M14 / M1A rifles. It was always a challenge to find as many USGI parts as possible and have them built on a top shelf receiver. After getting burned by some hacks, I bit the bullet and had LRB start doing my builds. They are the Masters. Great communication and after they inventoried my parts I was given a completion date. Usually that date was 10 - 12 months away. 100% of the time I was contacted on that date that my weapon was ready to ship. Regardless if it is a rifle, tractor or a computer.... Missing a dead line runs up a red flag. My respect goes to the shops that are not taking in any new work until they get their back log caught up. We are living in uncertain times. I feel very uneasy when I am told "Don't call us again. We will call you when it is ready"....

www.lrbarms.com

LRB Arms M14 Specialist

M14 Rifle Manufacturer specializing in custom built rifles. M14 / M1A parts and accessories. USA made, Genuine Hammer Forged receivers.
www.lrbarms.com
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Hobo Hilton said:
I have always enjoyed the M14 / M1A rifles. It was always a challenge to find as many USGI parts as possible and have them built on a top shelf receiver. After getting burned by some hacks, I bit the bullet and had LRB start doing my builds. They are the Masters. Great communication and after they inventoried my parts I was given a completion date. Usually that date was 10 - 12 months away. 100% of the time I was contacted on that date that my weapon was ready to ship. Regardless if it is a rifle, tractor or a computer.... Missing a dead line runs up a red flag. My respect goes to the shops that are not taking in any new work until they get their back log caught up. We are living in uncertain times. I feel very uneasy when I am told "Don't call us again. We will call you when it is ready"....

www.lrbarms.com

LRB Arms M14 Specialist

M14 Rifle Manufacturer specializing in custom built rifles. M14 / M1A parts and accessories. USA made, Genuine Hammer Forged receivers.
www.lrbarms.com
Click to expand...
The Gunsmiths are living through those same tough times with the added burden of maintaining their FFLs ,rising overhead etc etc. Then taking care of families and the many others needing help. There's so much more now that is beyond people's control and that applies to the Gunsmiths too. When people in the Baltimore Area needed and could not get any firearms for the urgent daily needs of defense covid and the antics of blm triggered they brought in an array of worn out,broken,very poorly "repaired" guns. I had builds in progress,parts well overdue,sick family and friends . Not one customer complained...except one. Even after building him 4 top notch rifles and 2 more in planning I parted with the customer on the best grounds possible. Custom Firearms are not tractors or computers and dedicated shooters are different too. Most of em anyway.
 
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#75
A business is a business, regardless of the product. Any business that cannot deliver on deadlines is a shitty business, regardless of the quality of the product. The customer didn’t buy into your personal drama, nor are they responsible for your finances or logistics. They are paying for a product, a service, or both.

I’ve seen wonderful artists that suck a business open and close shop in the custom knife world, and read about the same in the custom gun world. The stories are eerily similar. Long waits. Pre-orders. No coms. Pissed off customers. Credit card charge backs. Threats of legal intervention. Lists of customers left without their money or their goods. Materials bought for projects “lost.” More pissed customers. “But, he’s a really good smith. I don’t want to name him. Had a really bad run. Wife left him. Dog bit him. Caught cancer. Shop burned down. On and on.” But, Never stopped taking on new projects, so that he could catch up on the back log. Just keep adding to the pile.
 
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#77
What gives gunsmiths the franchise on cornering the market for being jackasses, when it comes to getting work done on time? Can you imagine other trades being such complete dicks when it comes to completion dates and times? I purchased a new kitchen sink, faucet, garbage disposal, and wanted the filters changed out on my R.O. system. I called the plumber Friday, he told me he would be out Tuesday morning to do the job.

Tuesday at 8:30 AM he showed up, and by 1:00 PM he was done, and the wife was putting her stuff back under the sink. Working like this is considered punctual and normal in most any kind of business. At least if you want to be successful it is. Who the fuck tells you a job will be done in 5 weeks, that ends up taking 9 months? They build houses quicker. Or have children for that matter.

And for these people who say, all the time he has to spend on the phone takes away from his work, then he needs to hire someone to answer the phone while he's working........ Like the plumber who did my job on time. It's bad enough these dick heads work like this to begin with. What's worse is having people making excuses for them.
 
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#79
I'll give a smith 2-4 weeks past the deadline to check in. Depending on their response will dictate what I do next. I will say that any smith I have used who was connected to the Hide (advertiser/vendor) has always been excellent with their workmanship and schedule.
 
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#80
GreatWhiteTatanka said:
No offense but you come across as a pushy customer. Most armorers worth their salt have a backlog of work and being rigid and inflexible usually results in the customer getting their feelings hurt or expectations let down. Communication is expected and that usually suffices. However, do not call everyday expecting a progress report. That is a quick way to get your stuff sent back to you.
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Dot3 said:
When, if ever, is the right time to check in on the progress of a build? Dropped one off in February and there was a 16 week lead time on the barrel. REM 700 action to get trued as well as threading and chambering. I’m not rushing, I’m just curious. My first foray into this.
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Give him a call but don't be a pest.
Remember this... He works for the public...You sign the Front of the check.. He signs the Back.
 
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