I've spoke to four gun smiths in the last week about building a rifle for me using a Lone Peak or Mac Brothers titanium action. I've had two of them tell me "I won't touch a titanium action because it won't last" and two of them that told me "I'll build it, but I won't guarantee it". What's the deal? I've read nothing but rave reviews about Lone Peak, Mack Bros and Mesa TI actions - and I can't find a gun smith who believes in them or will stand by them once they are built. Is titanium really that bad? Is galling still an issue even after DLC or Nitride coatings? I'm simply trying to build a light-weight, super accurater hunting rifle. Please let me know your thoughts and experiences with these actions.
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Gunsmithing Gunsmith opinion on Titanium vs Steel action
- Thread starter clrblu22
- Start date
Can't see why it wouldn't be suitable. I built parts out of titanium that went on the nose gear of the C-17 Globemaster (6AL-4V) so its pretty tough! That said mating a steel barrel to a titanium action could be dicey as Ti threads like to gald like a mother but Tiodize or DLC would probably take care of that.
I've built a few on Ti, and my PRS rig is Ti. Just shot the barrel out (2993 round count) and action is fine. Rebarreling over the Xmas break.
I didn't do anything special when I machined them up. I'm not sure why other Smiths are scared of them.
I didn't do anything special when I machined them up. I'm not sure why other Smiths are scared of them.
- Feb 16, 2017
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Travis Stevens (TS Custom’s) builds a lot on TI actions, I’d ask him.
I’ve fit a bunch of Proof Research CF barrels to Fuzion TI actions and have not had a problem, not have I heard problems from the customer.
It’s a neat combo.
It’s a neat combo.
I have been using Ti actions for many years. I have three types. Lone Peak is the most recent, also have CG Xtreem
and one of only a few titanium 98 Mauser actions ever built. Been using the Mauser for 20 years I would guess. Lot of rounds no issues. From memory I have the Mauser in .308, Lone Peak in .223 AI and CG in 20-250 and 22-250 switch barrel with titanium actions.
and one of only a few titanium 98 Mauser actions ever built. Been using the Mauser for 20 years I would guess. Lot of rounds no issues. From memory I have the Mauser in .308, Lone Peak in .223 AI and CG in 20-250 and 22-250 switch barrel with titanium actions.
A hunting gun with a low cyclic rate is going to tolerate titanium a whole lot better than a gamer gun running ##### rounds a year.
Ti is just bubble gummy stuff. Always has been, always will be. Unless the smith has a magic wand to turn it into something else, we all have the same constraints.
Opinions may vary on the serviceability, but the facts are what one should listen to here.
Case in point:
Remington Titanium M700's and M40's (those do exist, I have one) are not, nor have been ever offered in a magnum just for the reasons I've stated. Long actions Titaniums (they also exist, trust me) are not setup in magnums either.
The material (6AL 4V) just does not weather impact and abrasive type duty cycles well. Ti is used in aircraft/people because its light, strong, and benign to corrosion and oxidation. As good as all this is, it's not HARD which is a vital part of being a firearm. Hard, slick, & tough parts belong in a gun.
Hope this helps.
Ti is just bubble gummy stuff. Always has been, always will be. Unless the smith has a magic wand to turn it into something else, we all have the same constraints.
Opinions may vary on the serviceability, but the facts are what one should listen to here.
Case in point:
Remington Titanium M700's and M40's (those do exist, I have one) are not, nor have been ever offered in a magnum just for the reasons I've stated. Long actions Titaniums (they also exist, trust me) are not setup in magnums either.
The material (6AL 4V) just does not weather impact and abrasive type duty cycles well. Ti is used in aircraft/people because its light, strong, and benign to corrosion and oxidation. As good as all this is, it's not HARD which is a vital part of being a firearm. Hard, slick, & tough parts belong in a gun.
Hope this helps.
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Welcome. I think there were about 12 of them made.
The action is very light due to EVERYTHING being titanium. Extractor, bolt, extractor collar, firing pin and even the springs are Ti spring steal. The magazine, follower, its all TI. The rifle shoots very well with this barrel. The first one was a Christenson Arms CF and had issues. I put about 1K rds on it but removed and replaced with this Krieger.
The action is very light due to EVERYTHING being titanium. Extractor, bolt, extractor collar, firing pin and even the springs are Ti spring steal. The magazine, follower, its all TI. The rifle shoots very well with this barrel. The first one was a Christenson Arms CF and had issues. I put about 1K rds on it but removed and replaced with this Krieger.
not a gun smith or a metallurgist , but for the cost of use I would have to ask why titanium's advantage vrs steel is tinsel strength and weight maybe some heat distribution I am not positive on that one , you do not have a ton of pulling forces on a fire , arm you could make due with cheaper better wearing materials for most parts just to reduce weight like aluminum or polymers . or hunt down a few meteors if you feel like it . Either way god luck and I hope it turns out just the way you want it . I have no idea on how titanium handles constant shock from moving parts constantly colliding and rubbing . or the effect cleaning could have if any .
@LongRifles Inc. what do you mean by bubble gummy? What about DLC or nitriding? Wouldn't case hardening eliminate most of the issues? Maybe I'm just not grasping the stronger but softer thing I've heard about?
You're the one that plays with this stuff all the time, so your experience is welcomed.
You're the one that plays with this stuff all the time, so your experience is welcomed.
I have personally seen a factory 338LM titanium Remington. I believe it was a prototype, how it got to the shop I was at was unclear but it was broken and the gunsmith told me he refused to test fire it.
Think egg.
Boil it, whatcha got? You have gummy interior with a hard candy shell. The egg itself is nowhere near hard enough to deal with the abuse.
Ti is no different. If I take a Ti action and gas up a monster overpressure cartridge and shoot it, the lugs will peen back some. All the coating in the world isn't going to stop that. The surface hardness might be improved, but all your getting there is reduction of friction and better lubricity. If you take a ball peen hammer and whack on it, your still going to dent the snot out of it.
Hardness.
Toughness.
Surface hardness.
Tensile strength.
All very different things.
"Casing Ti" hits a ceiling pretty quick. It's not a hard/tough material. Not compared to steel anyways.
Read:
EP2154263A1 - Case hardening titanium and its alloys - Google Patents
An article of titanium or a titanium-based alloy is case hardened by heat treatment at a temperate of 750°C to 850°C and at a pressure in the order of atmospheric pressure in a diffusion atmosphere. The diffusion atmosphere comprises a carrier gas such as argon which does not react chemically...
patents.google.com
LongRifles Inc - I've read your posts and absolutely value your expertise (have been a long-time admirer or your products) - but it sounds like you agree with the "smiths" that I've talked to and are not a believer in Titanium either. Correct? - So here is the next question, "what ultra-light" steel action would you go with? I know that your are an ARC guy, but ARC doesn't make anything even close to light weight (although their actions are a work of art). So far I have been able to find the Deviant Ultra-Light and RBROS has a lightweight rogue action that looks like a Defiance Rebel clone - but both of these actions are 1/2 pound heavier than Lone Peak or a Mac Bro's TI.
See if LRI has any hunting Mausingfield's left. There was a special edition hunting Mausingfield made through collaboration of LRI and ARC.
LRI might have a couple of them left.
Speaking in my professional capacity as an engineer, everything LRI said is correct. I’d add that any dents and such, and lug set-back, will cause not-designed-for stress concentrations that will massively reduce the fatigue limit (read: the number of shots until it breaks apart in your face). Steel receivers also experience those stress concentrations with those defects, but the hardness makes it more difficult to create said defects in the first place.
If you’re hunting, and hunting/checking zero only, a titanium action will last as long as you do, and will probably not be involved in how long you last.
If you’re going to go through a case of ammo in one sitting a few times a year, or competing, or anything that involves hundreds of rounds a year, go for steel. Terminus just released their Apollo Lite / Ti, which is ~27oz, as a slightly different way to do a cored-out R700 pattern.
No matter what you do, it’s going to be pretty difficult on an R700-footprint-based system to get below the 5.3lb of the Weatherby Mark V Backcountry in 280AI (or 6.5 WBY RPM) with similar stopping power at anything resembling the same cost of $2500-ish.
If you’re hunting, and hunting/checking zero only, a titanium action will last as long as you do, and will probably not be involved in how long you last.
If you’re going to go through a case of ammo in one sitting a few times a year, or competing, or anything that involves hundreds of rounds a year, go for steel. Terminus just released their Apollo Lite / Ti, which is ~27oz, as a slightly different way to do a cored-out R700 pattern.
No matter what you do, it’s going to be pretty difficult on an R700-footprint-based system to get below the 5.3lb of the Weatherby Mark V Backcountry in 280AI (or 6.5 WBY RPM) with similar stopping power at anything resembling the same cost of $2500-ish.
So all this for 6oz? Lol, is it really about the weight or just to say you have a titanium action because it sounds badass?
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6-9oz is half a pound. The savings add up. Like stripping the weight out of a drag car. Rear view mirror and air freshener......Gone....LOL
Believe it or not, Yes, 6oz matters (and has nothing to do with sounding bad ass). The reason it matters is that I hunt the back country and have to carry EVERYTHING on my back. This is the same reason they make ultra-light packs, ultra-light tents, ultra-light sleeping bags, etc.. It's not the individual 6oz's, its the sum of all the equipment that you will carry for 2-3 weeks, 6-8 miles per day. Trust me, the difference you feel over time from carrying a 7 pound rifle vs a 10 pound rifle is significant. Add that to all of the other gear that you carry and you are talking the difference between 50 pounds on your back for a normal setup or 30 pounds on your back for an ultra-light setup. Simple philosophy for the back country - Weight=Pain
If you have a cube of titanium that is X/Y/Z in size and have an identically sized piece in steel, the Ti will weigh 60% of what the steel one does. By comparison, aluminum would weight 40%.
As i sit here waiting the arrival of a Razor Ti to be forwarded to @LongRifles Inc. for a carried a bunch shot little 7mag loaded to sane pressures....I have to wonder if I shouldn’t have gone steel. I have other shit I can burn the barrel out of, and I guess some day I’ll answer my own question of how many licks to the center of that tootsie roll pop.
Interesting. I'd imagine most of these TI actions would be for hunting use as many people I know doing PRS type shooting are adding weight. Am I right?
@ColdSteel260 I assume you are correct. I am looking at building another back country hunting rifle and only reason I'm looking at TI is due to weigh savings.
Have you considered a Barrett Fieldcraft?? They seem to have a great rep for being accurate and enough room in the mag box for loading long bullets without issues. Weigh just a little more than 5 lbs naked. I'm not a huge fan of the stock but its a lot of rifle for the $$$.
I'm interested in Titanium and yes I admit part of it is novelty. After all, this whole shooting thing for me is a hobby and enthusiast endeavor.
I think I could save 7-8 ounces which is 8% of the rifle.
I used to machine aircraft parts and got a chance to work several different types of exotic metals; titanium, magnesium, varying grades of aluminums, several stainless alloys. Of all of them the one that fascinated me the most was titanium. It's stainless, it's light, and very strong but soft. Ti is paradoxical in that regard - Ti punishes your tools and bits badly if you try to cut or drill fast, and rewards you and chips beautifully when you cut slowly. All metals are like that, of course, but Ti far more so. I had to scrap a couple of my first Ti parts just because I gouged the edges with my deburrring knife until I learned how gummy it is.
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I have 2 rem 700ti's. A .260 rem, and 7mm rem mag. They are hands down my favorite bolt action hunting rifles. The beauty of most of us here with lots of rifles is they dont need to get shot much. There is a "best" tool for each type of shooting you do.
To me a hunting rifle = carry alot, shoot a little.
To me a hunting rifle = carry alot, shoot a little.
Rem700 is 600g (no bolt, action only). My Ti with inertgrated recoil lug is 304g.
For my sample of one I will say that the Lone Peak Fuzion Ti is a very strong action. I just built a sheep rifle for a friend of mine in 300 PRC that he intends to take to tajikastan for Marco Polo. Doing his load development I got into an overpressure situation, exactly how I don't know. Must have had some powder hang in a funnel between charges. One of the 215 bergers I was dabbling with suddenly came across the magnetospeed at 3200 fps out of a 24" barrel. Primer gave way and brass flowed back between the the bolt body and the ejector, sticking it flush with the bolt face. Thankfully I still have both my eyeballs. Took the rifle home and checked the headpsace...unchanged. Put a borescope up the front action screw hole to inspect the lugs...no peening. Took it back out and finished the load development at a lower node. Rifle is an absolute laser. YMMV.
(I posted this in another thread about Ti, sorry if anybody reads it twice)
I am not an authority or a gunsmith, just another guy asking the same question. I have found three mfr's who show about 6-7 oz saved by going titanium. (hunting season is over, it's too cold to have any fun at the range, so I'm bored . . .)
Mack Evo claims 35% weight reduction over standard Rem 700 and says their Evo SA Ti weighs 20.5 oz pictured with integrated lug, so that indicates Rem 700 SS would be 20.5 x 1.35 = 27.5 oz. = 7 oz lighter.
Lone Peak shows the Razor SA SS at 26 oz, and the Razor SA Ti at 20 oz, both pictured with integrated lugs. = 6 oz lighter.
Mesa shows Crux SA Ti at 20.8 oz, pictured with integrated lug, but it isn't clear if that's bare or with the "included" 20 MOA rail. I assume it's without the included rail. Mesa shows SA Crux SA SS at 1 lb but that is so imprecise that I think it's a shipping weight, not a scaled weight.
Pierce SA Ti action says 17 oz, but they show it pictured without the lug, which is an "accessory", so you probably need to add 2-3 ounce lug weight to the 17 ounces. I couldn't find the weight of their steel action to compare, nor the weight of their lug.
Pierce says that Ti is 42% the weight of steel, but based on ASTM standards I believe they should say 42% less, not 42% of.
A 2.8 inch cube of SS would weigh 100 ounces, the same size cube of Ti would weigh 56 ounces, and 7075 aluminum would weigh 36 ounces. But you can't start with a 27.5 ounce Rem 700 SA action and say that the Ti action would weigh 27.5 x 56% = 15.4 ounces, because the bolt is still steel.
However because Ti is so much stronger than steel for the same size (75% higher tensile strength), makes me think that you could make the same strength action with smaller dimensions and save even more than 7 ounces. But then it would not fit Rem 700 footprints.
What I can't find is data on actual weight of both bare actions: Rem 700 steel and Rem 700 Ti, on the same scale to see what the actual difference is. Probably because it doesn't really matter to anyone unless they're as bored as me.
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