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Gunsmithing Gunsmith opinion on Titanium vs Steel action
- Thread starter clrblu22
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For a given size, there are steel grades that are weaker and stronger than each titanium grade. For a given weight, titanium grades will be stronger than almost all steel grades.
However, strength isn’t everything:
However, strength isn’t everything:
- Titanium has lower stiffness with the same geometry
- Titanium maxes out at a much lower hardness
- Titanium is less tolerant of surface imperfections, which cause substantial reduction in fatigue properties
- Machining tool life is pretty dismal
You've hit on the problem here - substituting one material for a different material but using the same geometry. That's kicked my ass before, and probably will do so again.
The stiffness is a real problem - titanium tends to be a bit better than half as stiff as the same cross-section of steel (comparing Grade 5 Ti to SAE 4130; the Remington Ti action might be Grade 9, but it has similar enough characteristics for this conversation). Making an action less stiff is typically not good for accuracy., brass life, etc. It may be a good trade-off for someone who has to carry a rifle up and down mountains all week long.
The Rem 700 Ti action is an example of taking a design that had a large amount of extra margin, and giving up some of that margin with a material substitution. Adding stiffness back into the design isn't a trivial problem since there is hardly any room available to beef up the lugs. By the time that the stressed components are back to the original stiffness, we probably have an action that no longer drops into standard R700 footprints or feeds from standard magazines. Chambering matters; a little guy like the .223 running at commercial pressure suffers far less than does the latest .532-boltface ass-kicker which is hand-loaded to cartridge-head-extrusion pressures.
The lack of surface hardness and resultant galling just adds some insult to injury. If one were to stiffen up the action, then the addition of PVD coatings might be a worthwhile step and the result could be an action that is every bit as good (well, almost) as its steel counterpart. But then we've added mass back into the design (largely negating the whole point of the exercise) and added a bunch of cost and screwed up most/all of its backwards compatibility with commodity parts, which is all well past the point at which forum mobs have broken out their pitchforks.
Someone might ask why bicycle guys get away with using titanium for weight reduction, and the answer is simple - tubular structures (particularly those with boatloads of triangulation) work in magical ways. If we make a steel tube and a titanium tube of the same diameter, the titanium tube is about 45% lighter and about 42% less stiff. That doesn't seem like a great trade-off, considering the increased cost! But then we can increase the diameter of the titanium tubing, and thin out the wall sections, and really start to make use of titanium's superior fatigue life. But very little of this approach carries over to something like a rifle receiver.
Really, the bottom line is that good old-fashioned steel works still works really damn well for a lot of parts.
Really, the bottom line is that good old-fashioned steel works still works really damn well for a lot of parts.
I wish that the rite of passage to owning your first firearm included having what you just said burned into your flesh via a branding iron.
Well said.
I wish that the rite of passage to owning your first firearm included having what you just said burned into your flesh via a branding iron.
Well said.
I used to be a fairly serious mountain bike enthusiast.
The first Titanium bikes (mine was a Merlin but I have some time on litespeeds as well) were problematic.
in the vertical axis they were wonderful with a soft ride and really were easy on you for long rides.
As a cruiser they were fantastic.
where they sucked was when mashing the pedals or hard turning.
Frames flexed badly when you really started cranking and you lost some snap in acceleration.
Really aggressive turning could get interesting with the frame bending then springing back changing the steering angle along with a vague feel.
In hairy situations this could end up painful
the newer TI bike with oval/buttressed and stepped tubes really made a difference but the dead feel is still kinda there.
in the end before I quit riding because of injuries I was back on a Steel frame because a good frame with Reynolds 853 tubes is a glorious ride.
Yes I'm sure of the numbers but I was talking yield tensile strength only.
Yield strength of 416R SS is about 73,000 psi. Yield strength of 6AL-4V Ti is about 128,000 psi. That's 75% higher.
BUT - there can be large variations with heat treating, work hardening, etc.
ALSO - like the guys above say, yield strength is only one property. When you shape it and you need a shell to hold up under different stresses, etc there are other properties like stiffness and hardness that come in to play.
My point was more of a question - could somebody make an even lighter action by reducing dimensions given that the Ti material is stronger. I probably shouldn't have said 75% since that's only tensile yield strength, but it is a fairly compelling difference.
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I ventured down this path a few months ago. For every person who hails TI as the end all there are 5 with stories of complications. I almost pulled the trigger on one but decided on a Bighorn Arms. Yep going to be heavier, but it will outlast my grandkids if cared for.
It is of my opinion that counting ounces is great except two parts, Action and optics.
It is of my opinion that counting ounces is great except two parts, Action and optics.
You pro-steel guys are sure making some sense. I do like Ti for both the weight and the cool factor, but even cooler is an excellent dependable action. I already have a Ti coming, though, so I'll see for myself.
They both have their place. Depends on weight requirements, rounds to be fired and caliber. A .223 like my Lone Peak TI with Proof CF barrel that gets carried a lot and fired only a few hundred rounds per year is fine in titanium. PRS or range rifle not so much.
Just go for an all carbon fiber action.
What could go wrong? It’s super stiff no one will ever drop it light as a feather blah blah blah…
I’m sure some doof is working on that.
I really love titanium (Snowpeak campware rocks!) but as many a bicyclist and motorcyclist has quipped, “Steel is real.”
What could go wrong? It’s super stiff no one will ever drop it light as a feather blah blah blah…
I’m sure some doof is working on that.
I really love titanium (Snowpeak campware rocks!) but as many a bicyclist and motorcyclist has quipped, “Steel is real.”
After reading this thread a few times I have only one question.
Is using a Ti action for a big cartridge that will see about 150 rounds per year a terrible idea or just not the best option ?
I've been putting money away for a Lone Peak Ti lightweight Norma and was planning on sending it to Chad , after reading this thread I'm not even sure he'd be interested in building it .
Is using a Ti action for a big cartridge that will see about 150 rounds per year a terrible idea or just not the best option ?
I've been putting money away for a Lone Peak Ti lightweight Norma and was planning on sending it to Chad , after reading this thread I'm not even sure he'd be interested in building it .
Maybe a better question is has anyone seen a TI receiver fail when a steel receiver wouldn’t have?
Has anyone worn out a TI action?
Has anyone worn out a TI action?
I have never owned a TI action. I have had a few shooting associates that have, and theY seemed fine with standard cartridges. One had some problems with galling in the lugs, but think that got worked out.
I was SERIOUSLY considering a TI for my pending 6.5 PRC. The more I talked with other shooters, builders, and folks I have grown to trust the more mixed results I found. In the end I want this build to last.
The combination of a short magnum, lower abrasion (wear) resistance, added cost, less longevity led me away from TI.
I have no idea what action makes sense for a norma. The best advice I can give you is to find some folks that have done it. I suspect the answer will be obvious to you
I've been working with titanium rifle actions 23 years at this point, I have some experience in this field. In November of 1996 I was working for Dakota Arms. I was offered a job at Cambridge Valley Machining Inc. In Cambridge NY building titanium Mauser actions and rifles. The name of the new venture then was called Taconic Firearms Limited. I ,Stuart Satterlee, James Anderson and Howard Siekkula, Larry Woods, Ed Dillon, Don Schneider SR. Rounded out the staff, with Don being owner and the rest of us employees of Don. We built 49 titanium small ring M98 actions of those 49 actions we produced 12 complete rifles for 1997 show season, shot show and sci.
Full retail on the rifle was $7,995.00. The sales team took orders on a hand full of rifles which amounted to peanuts in the grand scheme of things as it related to all that Don had going on with Cambridge Valley Machining. It's hard to get very excited about potential success with rifles when the parent company grosses 300k a week. The logic being why spend two hours courting a $7900.00 rifle sale when same two hours could land easily $75,000.00 in job contract machining. A simple decision was made at that point to eliminate the rifle project from the CVMI list of jobs worth doing. Which left us footloose and fancy free to go about our lives as we wished. After my uhaul was packed I stopped by Dons office to bid him goodbye and thank him for the opportunity to serve.
He appreciated that and as passing comment as I left the office I said " if you ever want to sell the remaining actions, fixtures etc call me " and provided a number I could be reached at. Fast forward two years by this time I'd gotten a FFL and was building a few rifles and working also for Miller Arms and AMT/Galena industries. The phone rings and Its Don at CVMI wanting to move that titanium M98 inventory, tired of paying New York inventory taxes on it. Fine I'll buy it, here's my offer. He accepts, I take on the inventory. I take on 35 titanium M98 actions and 10 steel actions, same design. The steel actions are of no consequence and easily understood Industry wide so no real mysteries there. The titanium however is a horse of a different color. Back in 2000 it's the only titanium bolt gun game in town and largely thought of as boutique. I the past 20 years I've built out those 35 actions into rifles including the .308 mentioned earlier in this thread. I've learned some things about titanium receivers with titanium bolts a dissimilar coating combination between receiver and bolt delivers best performance.
I like PVD WCC by Balzers on the bolt. Since the bolt is the part doing all the work it needs the toughest coating, beyond that DLC or Cera-kote will be fine for the rest. The primary reason for not going WCC on the Receiver is Balzers never would get an FFL.
Overloading to the point of case head destruction reveals minimal lug set back, titanium resists pressure well. Invariably the case head fails at around at around 86k you get a gas dump, do that 3 times with no hs changes and you're proofed at Ferlach.
The Ti 98 has no problems passing European proofing. The Ti Rem. And the Clones will do the same, passing easily.
Titanium actions are susceptible to headspace increases by getting what I call being scraped in. It can also be know as scraped out either way you look at it, small amounts of material can be scraped out of the lug seats in the receiver. Special attention to the camming edges of the bolt lugs, i.e. no sharp edges, what I'm describing here is where the bolt lug rides the closing cam then transitions to battery on the lug seat. Rounded corner breaks here are best.
Another no no, on a titanium action is neck sized ammunition that has a tight feel on the bolt handle upon closing. We all like the perfectly fire formed fitted cartridge case with just a touch of "feel" on the bolt handle, avoid this situation on a titanium action be it titanium bolt or steel bolt. The hardened steel bolt will actually have more ability to shave than the titanium bolt, because it's harder just like Dixon said. Titanium is not hard it's tough. Manually machining titanium gives a guy a good idea of the toughness difference, basically it acts similar to 17-4 solution aged material, just tough.
Not claiming to be the authority on the subject just sharing some basic observations I've run across in the production of titanium rifle actions.
After building out the remaining stock from CVMI I've also produced a couple dozen more titanium M98 actions short k length, standard length 300's and 375's. I build these rifles under my own name Satterlee Arms LLC. I'm a one man shop, dedicated to precision rifles of flawless function and impeccable quality in wood or composite.
As far as titanium for use in a PRS rifle my question is "why" ? Engagement of long range targets requires a rifle that has some weight to it so it will settle,hang,hold whatever. Going lighter by a few ounces is not going to give the win.
Hunting rifles, mountain rifles get carried a lot and fired very little. Hunting rifles with titanium actions have unique handling characteristics especially as that relates to the Mauser 98 design, heavy friggin tank of an action right. The M98 benefits more from titanium because there is simply more of it, every single component of an M98 action is bigger and heavier. My only logic, it's a crazy world, and the rifle world is no exception to that. Appreciate it,. later.....
Full retail on the rifle was $7,995.00. The sales team took orders on a hand full of rifles which amounted to peanuts in the grand scheme of things as it related to all that Don had going on with Cambridge Valley Machining. It's hard to get very excited about potential success with rifles when the parent company grosses 300k a week. The logic being why spend two hours courting a $7900.00 rifle sale when same two hours could land easily $75,000.00 in job contract machining. A simple decision was made at that point to eliminate the rifle project from the CVMI list of jobs worth doing. Which left us footloose and fancy free to go about our lives as we wished. After my uhaul was packed I stopped by Dons office to bid him goodbye and thank him for the opportunity to serve.
He appreciated that and as passing comment as I left the office I said " if you ever want to sell the remaining actions, fixtures etc call me " and provided a number I could be reached at. Fast forward two years by this time I'd gotten a FFL and was building a few rifles and working also for Miller Arms and AMT/Galena industries. The phone rings and Its Don at CVMI wanting to move that titanium M98 inventory, tired of paying New York inventory taxes on it. Fine I'll buy it, here's my offer. He accepts, I take on the inventory. I take on 35 titanium M98 actions and 10 steel actions, same design. The steel actions are of no consequence and easily understood Industry wide so no real mysteries there. The titanium however is a horse of a different color. Back in 2000 it's the only titanium bolt gun game in town and largely thought of as boutique. I the past 20 years I've built out those 35 actions into rifles including the .308 mentioned earlier in this thread. I've learned some things about titanium receivers with titanium bolts a dissimilar coating combination between receiver and bolt delivers best performance.
I like PVD WCC by Balzers on the bolt. Since the bolt is the part doing all the work it needs the toughest coating, beyond that DLC or Cera-kote will be fine for the rest. The primary reason for not going WCC on the Receiver is Balzers never would get an FFL.
Overloading to the point of case head destruction reveals minimal lug set back, titanium resists pressure well. Invariably the case head fails at around at around 86k you get a gas dump, do that 3 times with no hs changes and you're proofed at Ferlach.
The Ti 98 has no problems passing European proofing. The Ti Rem. And the Clones will do the same, passing easily.
Titanium actions are susceptible to headspace increases by getting what I call being scraped in. It can also be know as scraped out either way you look at it, small amounts of material can be scraped out of the lug seats in the receiver. Special attention to the camming edges of the bolt lugs, i.e. no sharp edges, what I'm describing here is where the bolt lug rides the closing cam then transitions to battery on the lug seat. Rounded corner breaks here are best.
Another no no, on a titanium action is neck sized ammunition that has a tight feel on the bolt handle upon closing. We all like the perfectly fire formed fitted cartridge case with just a touch of "feel" on the bolt handle, avoid this situation on a titanium action be it titanium bolt or steel bolt. The hardened steel bolt will actually have more ability to shave than the titanium bolt, because it's harder just like Dixon said. Titanium is not hard it's tough. Manually machining titanium gives a guy a good idea of the toughness difference, basically it acts similar to 17-4 solution aged material, just tough.
Not claiming to be the authority on the subject just sharing some basic observations I've run across in the production of titanium rifle actions.
After building out the remaining stock from CVMI I've also produced a couple dozen more titanium M98 actions short k length, standard length 300's and 375's. I build these rifles under my own name Satterlee Arms LLC. I'm a one man shop, dedicated to precision rifles of flawless function and impeccable quality in wood or composite.
As far as titanium for use in a PRS rifle my question is "why" ? Engagement of long range targets requires a rifle that has some weight to it so it will settle,hang,hold whatever. Going lighter by a few ounces is not going to give the win.
Hunting rifles, mountain rifles get carried a lot and fired very little. Hunting rifles with titanium actions have unique handling characteristics especially as that relates to the Mauser 98 design, heavy friggin tank of an action right. The M98 benefits more from titanium because there is simply more of it, every single component of an M98 action is bigger and heavier. My only logic, it's a crazy world, and the rifle world is no exception to that. Appreciate it,. later.....
I just retired my main PRS rig, a Titanium MANAEL action (rem700 clone) and discovered this previously by accident and was not sure about it. After some reading, I'm glad you have confirmed my findings.
I'm building a new Ti receiver for the 2020 Australian PRS series, so see how it goes.
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Aluminum is less stiff and less strong than titanium; it’s also lighter and less prone to surface defect-driven fatigue. However, no alloy is even close to suitable for either intense pressure or intense heat, so requires integration of stronger and harder bits in the appropriate places. The point of titanium was to keep a monolithic action that’s lighter and strong enough, which it’s technically okay at as long as nothing goes wrong.
The MRAD, Sig Cross, AR platforms, HAVAK ELEMENT, Kelbly Panda, BAT Bumblebee, and I’m sure I’m forgetting a handful all use an aluminum action body with steel lockup.
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