H&R M12

[Calfed]

Some months back I glommed an H&R M12 at an estate auction. It didn't come with sights, but did have a rare Ken Viani scope rail. The rifle looked to be in excellent condition.

I had an issue with the rifle (trigger and/or bolt was dirty) which took a little time to sort out.

During the sorting out, I discovered that the prior owner had bedded the action.

I finally mounted a 6-20 Weaver Grand Slam and got a chance to sight in the H&R a few days ago. I didn't have much time, so mainly concentrated on establishing what kind of "waterline" the rifle would hold.

I got it on paper with some cheap ammo and then switched to Eley Tennex. The wind was varying from a left 45 degree cross wind to about a right 45 degree crosswind. Top line was my first 5. Made an adjustment and got a second line. Then made a very small adjustment and put three in the upper left quadrant of the orange dot. This rifle seems like it has some promise.

50 yards with Eley tennex

 

[phantomskittles]

Love my H&R 12. It is one of the most accurate rimfire rifles I own. The factory stock was nothing amazing and I wasn't a fan of a stock that had the ergonomics of a 2x4. (despite having a rifle that is literally mounted to 2x4s) Got a Richard's microfit for it. Here is a pic from when it had a short stint with a vintage scope. I think you will love yours.

 

[camocorvette]

I'd say that is a promising rifle. Feed it good ammo and it will perform.

 

[AirGunShawn]

Hello Phantom,
I was just at Richards and didn't see an option for the H&R M12 action. Can you give me a little guidance from your stock?
Is it the same footprint as something else? IE: Rem 700.

I just bought this LNIB M12, ( $748.00) you can see that I tend to run my scopes farther back than most people do.
I was wondering what LOP you have and what kind of mounts you use. I would like to keep the LOP around 13.50"
so that it fits the next care taker. Some well made black spacers may be a good option. Was an adjustable cheek
piece an option?

I just bought this Redfield 3200 for my older guns and it is going to have mounting issues . I can use some off-set mounts
like currently have for testing but it looks pretty funky on older guns. Win 52 pre-A or Springfield 1922 Mk2. In fact, I need to find a way to
raise the scope center line also. I would also need some TALLER dove-tail mounts. Over an inch. My cheek is pushed into the stock as it is.
I can have some custom stuff made if I have to but some of you guy's may have the answers at the ready.... I have some UTG adaptors
that will bite onto the old style mounts and allow for the use of current 34mm PIC mounts.

As I compose this, Richards stock with butt spacers and adjustable cheek is likely the best approach. Then HIGH but standard
dovetail bases. It appears that the Redfield uses the Unertl Posa mounts as it lacks anything that would engage the crescent
shape. Any help her? Looking for TALL, Off -set. The barrel is .886" dia. at the muzzle. The scope tube is 1.00" dia.

Any kind of help will be appreciated. It's a new gun and I know nothing about it. I'm learning as I go.

As I look up at Ken Vs long scope mount, It looks like he mounted up front and then added a stabilizer in the rear on the left
side, is that accurate? It also looks like he skipped four slots in his rail. Based on my scope mount positions, I could use those
with my Trijicon test scopes. Can anyone get me some clear photos with a tape measure in it for scale. That would be VERY
helpful so that I could ask S&K for any extra custom work.

This gun has only shot for about 30 minutes of shooting after a complete toothbrush cleaning and she shoots as well as
my V22 gen one and Annie 54. I have not even found her favorite ammo yet. Every single screw was removed and cleaned
except for the trigger module. I gave that a lick and a promise until next time around.

Does anyone make a mod kit or totally new trigger? I have not lapped the sears or replaced the springs. It's kind of heavy
and long. I can pull it half way through and stop...... :-( I tried a cheaper 8-34 scope on her and was reminded why
I HATE cheap glass. At 65 yards I still get a great view of wasps.

Thank you very much............

PS... The image labeled NJR, the one with an adjustable stock is one on my pellet guns. I has one of my Trijicon 5-50s mounted
on it. The scope focuses down to 9 yards and is crystal clear even at 50 power. I maintain that spending 1.5 to 2.5 times the
cost of your gun on optics and ancillary equipment is money well spent. With my scopes, I don't need to buy a spotting scope or
it's tripod. I can look at the moon with it.

If you spend $3500.00 on a Vudoo, how much money do you budget for glass? I have a $275.00 Serbian Zastava with a Leupold
6.5-20 EFR ( $800.00 ) I snatched shot #6..... I used the Leupold at the world champion chips on a $500.00 Daystate Huntsman.
Unlimited "B" class PCP.
Buy great glass and establish great DOPE.

 

[AirGunShawn]

Hello Calfed,

Howard at S&K is taken over the production of Kens mounts. ([email protected]) A great guy to deal with.

Would it be possible for you to get some photos of the mount with a tape measure in it. If the photo's are taken looking straight down
on the object, it is possible to get very accurate dimensions for the computer screen. I can zoom up on an image 20 / 40 times, do a little
math and get measurements that are as close as .010" from your photo. They need to taken 90* to the object. Once angles are involved
the accuracy quickly degrades. If your willing to go that far, could you please get some at various angles to illustrate clearances. It can
be very difficult to decern where parts start and stop when looking at monochromatic surfaces. A white sheet of paper strategically
placed or even bent and slipped in between objects is a great help.

I'm going to need to speak with Howard and have him make some additions to my mount if possible. I would like him to cut the missing
slots from the center of the rail and make it longer if possible. It appears as though Ken attached the rear of his mount, with or near the
original rear sight mounting plate. If that is the case, Howard may have trouble adding slots on the back end which I want also.

To make his front section work, he may need to raise the entire mount about .50". That would also be helpful since my face is
already pushed into the sock a bit.

You can see I run my scopes about 1.5 / 2.5" aft of most people. And my turret box and tube features keep my mounts kind of land
locked.

Any insight to any part of this M12 would be greatly appreciated. History, old style sights or mounts, spare parts, etc.

Thanks you so very much!!

 

[phantomskittles]

Hello Phantom,
I was just at Richards and didn't see an option for the H&R M12 action. Can you give me a little guidance from your stock?
Is it the same footprint as something else? IE: Rem 700.

I just bought this LNIB M12, ( $748.00) you can see that I tend to run my scopes farther back than most people do.
I was wondering what LOP you have and what kind of mounts you use. I would like to keep the LOP around 13.50"
so that it fits the next care taker. Some well made black spacers may be a good option. Was an adjustable cheek
piece an option?

For the Model 12 you will have to call. It is not listed on the site but they do have a 90% inlet available. It did not take a lot of work to get it finished though, mostly used various sockets and sandpaper. The stock I ordered I just stayed with the standard LOP which it looks like is 13.75". I believe you can get any LOP specified. They don't offer an adjustable cheek piece from them. I know that I have seen hardware to make adjustable cheekpieces that would work with their stock but it isn't available from them. The black plastic spacers should be doable because they use a standard butt pad.

As to the scope mounts. I do not have a scope on that gun any longer it is my dedicated iron sight gun now with Redfield internationals on it. My winchester 52 has a custom made base which was based off the Ken Viani bases but with a full length picatinny rail and 50 moa of cant. It has always worked for me. I had a Ken Viani mount initially but wanted more cant and more mounting options. It worked well while I had it but am happier with the custom one I made and sold the other.

I only ever tried it with the Lyman with the factory mounts. It was difficult to shoot with it at 50 yards and under due to the height. At 100 it was better and as far out as 250 worked well. This is one of the reasons I initially switch to peeps.

The gun is incredibly accurate. I would probably be pleased to shoot it with a scope since it shoots with my Anschutz and Winchester 52 but it just fits so well with the redfields that I can't bring myself to change it from that now.

 

[Calfed]

I actually have another Viani mount on my H&R 5200, which is a civilian version of the M12 in a walnut stock. Would it be easier for Howard to actually make the mount from an example in hand?

Also have a Viani mount for a Remington model 513-T and a Winchester 52B

 

[AirGunShawn]

Hello Calfed,

I won't be able to ask Howard until tomorrow. Your Rem 513T appears to have the features that I need. It has more slots in the
middle and more out back. I can certainly use your photo as an example during our discussion. Some added height would be
helpful as well. ( .50" ??)

Do you recall what $$ Ken V got for his rails??

I have a Remmy 541 X that I really like that could use a Ken V type mount.
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Phantom,
When I was younger, I had worked with metal and disliked everything about wood. When I made my first gun stock, I used a
vertical mill to do the inletting and treated it as if it were metal.
After I had my basic block gun stock, I used spoke shaves to carve out the outer shape. It wasn't until then that I found any
wood working enjoyable. Maintaining the stocks symmetry was surprisingly simple.

The two below are a Pinnical 151 and 151 1/2. They are stainless steel and $130.00 to $150.00 each. One has a flat bottom and
the other is rounded. Later I bought some Lie-Neilson tools and they are really sweet to work with. After a life changing illness,
I had to sell the Lie-Neilson tools but was able to get more than I paid for them on eBay. Pics #3 and #4 are of my $15.00 spoke
shaves with $30.00 Hock blades and they function just as well as the Pinnacals. Better than the round handled Boggs.

But that is the nature of a spoke shave. They don't require flat beds and square corners. On something like a plane, it is very
important to have ground soles and squared corners. If not, your work will end up FUBARed. Look at the precision of the
Lie-Neilson tools.... you pay for that but it's worth it.

They have thick blades that have been lapped to a mirror finish. I often use Hock blade because of their thickness. They are
expensive ( $30.00 ) but perform really well. They glide through the wood. They don't chatter or skip. It's amazing how
fine a cut can be taken with the various wood working tools. It minimizes the amount of sanding that needs to be done and
that is the part that I dislike. Watching your pet project take shape at a relatively fast pace is really enjoyable. The surface
finish that can be produced with razor sharp tools is amazingly refined.

Spoke shaves are certainly the approach if I were to get an 80% or 90% stock.

I use the same lapping film on my trigger sears as I use on my wood working irons. ( Blades )

I actually have another Viani mount on my H&R 5200, which is a civilian version of the M12 in a walnut stock. Would it be easier for Howard to actually make the mount from an example in hand?

Also have a Viani mount for a Remington model 513-T and a Winchester 52B

 

[Calfed]

Hello Calfed,

I won't be able to ask Howard until tomorrow. Your Rem 513T appears to have the features that I need. It has more slots in the
middle and more out back. I can certainly use your photo as an example during our discussion. Some added height would be
helpful as well. ( .50" ??)

Do you recall what $$ Ken V got for his rails??

I have a Remmy 541 X that I really like that could use a Ken V type mount.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The pictures I posted are both of the Winchester model 52D. I don't have a pic of my 513T with the Viani rail mounted.

I was going through my parts and discovered that I also have a Viani rail for my Winchester model 75, although I've never mounted it

 

[AirGunShawn]

Hi Calfed,

I'm sorry, since you mentioned both guns thought you were shown both of them to me. Isn't the top photo your
H&R 5200?
The next two appear to be a Winchester of some flavor. The middle gun facing to the right has the rail with a better
configuration for my needs. I just took a photo of my M12 at an angle that is similar to yours. Not rotation but an angle
that allows a person to see the underside and mounting rail at a similar angle. For a brief moment I thought I may have
preferred a walnut stock but I don't collect, I shoot. I wish they would have NOT used Duct tape on the periphery box.
I suspect the next owner will look down on it..... Other than that, it is in great condition with all of it's packaging material.

Thank you very much
Shawn Carroll

 

[Calfed]

Yep...first one is the 5200, then two pics of my Winchester 52D. I'm still looking for a pic of my 513T

 

[1813Benny]

As I compose this, Richards stock with butt spacers and adjustable cheek is likely the best approach. Then HIGH but standard
dovetail bases. It appears that the Redfield uses the Unertl Posa mounts as it lacks anything that would engage the crescent
shape. Any help her? Looking for TALL, Off -set. The barrel is .886" dia. at the muzzle. The scope tube is 1.00" dia.

The Redfield 3200 rings do not use Unertl Posa mounts nor are they to engage in the crescent cuts in the dovetail blocks. The Posa mounts are for centerfire applications. The 3200 is a rimfire scope and does not need anything more than the standard clamping with the 3200 rings.

The 3200 is a standard 1" tube, so there are many high ring options that can be used w/ the dovetail bases.

 

[AirGunShawn]

Ken,

It sounds like your saying my new scope may have the wrong mounts. It's a 3200 and it has a one inch tube. From photo #3, you
can see why I thought they need a POSA mount to clear the tightening thumb knob. The mount shown is what I would call a
crescent mount and it came with my H&R M12 last week.

Ultimately it wont matter much. I will either have relief cuts put into the mount to clear the thumb knob shoulder or remove
an 1/8" of offending thumb knob shoulder. Some of that decision will be based on which is easier to replace with factory parts
or after market parts.

It's clear how the thumb knob shoulder wont allow the clamp to sit properly on the crescent mount style. That is why I thought
it needed POSA style mounts as shown in photo #4. Photo #5 is what I'm calling crescent style mounts.

 

[1813Benny]

Ken,

It sounds like your saying my new scope may have the wrong mounts. It's a 3200 and it has a one inch tube. From photo #3, you
can see why I thought they need a POSA mount to clear the tightening thumb knob. The mount shown is what I would call a
crescent mount and it came with my H&R M12 last week.

Ultimately it wont matter much. I will either have relief cuts put into the mount to clear the thumb knob shoulder or remove
an 1/8" of offending thumb knob shoulder. Some of that decision will be based on which is easier to replace with factory parts
or after market parts.

It's clear how the thumb knob shoulder wont allow the clamp to sit properly on the crescent mount style. That is why I thought
it needed POSA style mounts as shown in photo #4. Photo #5 is what I'm calling crescent style mounts.

I have attached a photo of the 3200 rings and the thumb screw shoulder is definitely different and is not proud vs what is in your photo.

Do your rings look like those in my photo? The issue might just be the incorrect shoulder screw...

 

[AirGunShawn]

Hello Ken,

My mounts look like yours with the exception that I have CF thumb knobs. If I understand them and you, your knobs are for RF only.
Mine would require a POSA type mount to clear the shoulder or new knobs from [email protected]
For about $7.50 each I can get your short shoulder thumb screws. Mine appear to be the same as yours except that the lengthy of small shoulder
has been abbreviated by .094" to clear the dove tail base itself. That also explains why in the literature the two thumb knobs CF and RF
appear to be the same. The .094" difference just isn't obvious in the cartoon.

I have some screws that have been buggered up so I need to buy some stuff from Steve Earl anyway. I loathe imperfect screw heads.....

Did I ask you If you had a source for Redfield 3200 repair? Mine looks flawless for now but all it would take is one bad cross hair
wire to ruin my day.

All things considered, It looks like things are going well for me......

 

[AirGunShawn]

After a closer examination of the above paperwork and it's thumb screw, it is painfully obvious that that the smallest diameter
of the Big Bore thumb screw is nearly twice as long as the Rim Fire thumb screw. It's out of scale but it is perfect representation
for the cartoon.
I hate loosing my witts.....

 

[1813Benny]

I would get the new “smallbore” type screws and move on…. That will also allow slight adjustment to your eye relief vs being “locked” in with the Posa type screw/base combination.

 

[AirGunShawn]

Ken,

As I review my rifle I continue to see things that I must investigate. I can get new screws and the like from Steve Earl.

As I look at what Steve has to offer for the rear International mounting plate, it appears that Steve has elected to chop it of by
nearly .75" For me to shoot open sights comfortably, I would like it to get longer by an inch and get taller by an inch.

I have been hoping to find a plate like that on evil bay or in the International literature. That means that I would like my front
sight block to go upwards accordingly.

In very general terms, Steve's rear mounting plate looks like the one below except with the material with the 'X" on it removed.
That extra work is to clear the bolt handle. If you shorten it's length, you can to do away with a bunch of extra machining cost.
You can see that I run my scope farther back than most people do. Has anyone ever seen a plate that is longer and taller???

Apparently, Steve makes a POSA / Lyman block that has the locking feature on one side and the crescent feature on the other side.
Rather than surf evil-bay for my stuff, I feel like sourcing it all from Steve is the approach I will take.

I still need a Ken V type scope base before I can do any serious accuracy testing.

It will be another fun project in any case.