Range Report H1000 problems

[shocking300]

Got new 8LB of H1000 Loaded my known 77.5gr 208Amax load, went to range and got all kinds of overpressure signs, what is wrong last 8lbs was giving me 1/4 moa grouping at 200yards this jug cant group 3" at 200 yards, could outside temperature cause this or H1000 differs some much lot to lot

 

[Jeffvn]

Re: H1000 problems

If you did your load development in the winter, and are just now shooting it in the summer, it might be the load.

It may well be the lot of powder. If you had solid chronograph data on your prior load run the news across and them tweek the load to match the velocity.

Newer lots of H1000 seem to be considerably "faster" than older lots. All stated load that are for H1000 need to be taken with a big dose of caution these days.

That was the story for my 7WSM, 7 Dakota, and 338LM. when I got a new 8 lb jug of H1000. All got back to their original accuracy condition when I matched the velocities from the original lot.

Jeffvn

 

[Bigwheels]

Re: H1000 problems

I have had lot to lot change with H-1000, but my experience was a drop in mv, not an increase. I have found H-1000 to be very temp insensitive from below freezing to over 90*.

 

[Rob01]

Re: H1000 problems

You still have to do a small load development with a new lot. I had one lot of H1000 that I needed 78.3grns and one that i needed 76.8grens to get the same velocity with my 208 AMAX in my 300WM. Both were great loads. Load to the velocity of your old load. Not the powder charge.

 

[Enough Said]

Re: H1000 problems

If I could get Vv N570 up here I'd quit this madness.

Just when you get rolling... You switch powder lots and start over.

NOT ideal.

 

[shocking300]

Re: H1000 problems

Should i switch to Imr 7828 it shoots great groups also. Velocity slower by 150ft

 

[bward]

Re: H1000 problems

Just match your old velocity. Pretty simple.

 

[jrob300]

Re: H1000 problems

There's a reason they put lot numbers on there. Lot to lot variation is a reality of manufacturing. It costs a lot of money to guarantee no variation, so pay me now or pay me later.

Like bward said, when switching lots, start low and build back to your old velocity. It's not that big of a deal.

John

 

[ChadTRG42]

Re: H1000 problems

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You still have to do a small load development with a new lot. I had one lot of H1000 that I needed 78.3grns and one that i needed 76.8grens to get the same velocity with my 208 AMAX in my 300WM. Both were great loads. Load to the velocity of your old load. Not the powder charge. </div></div>
+1

 

[steve123]

Re: H1000 problems

My new 8lb jug was much faster than the old. I couldn't get the velocity back up to where it was without excessive pressure. I switched to a lighter bullet "230's" with a higher BC, was using 240's. Worked up a new load.

I wish Hornady powders were more consistent in burn rate like Vit is.

 

[Rob01]

Re: H1000 problems

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: steve123</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I wish Hornady powders were more consistent in burn rate like Vit is. </div></div>

Hornady doesn't make powder. H1000 is sold by Hodgdon.

 

[turbo54]

Re: H1000 problems

Seems a bunch of Retumbo users have been complaining about this too.

Also noticed my new lot of H4831 is again, faster, as is Varget and H4350.

Not only are they faster, but they seem less energetic, as the MVs I am used to getting are not possible anymore.

I believe the only differences between the Hodgdon x-treme powders is the kernel size, not the chemistry. Every extreme powder I use being faster lately supports this belief.

 

[steve123]

Re: H1000 problems

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: steve123</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I wish Hornady powders were more consistent in burn rate like Vit is. </div></div>

Hornady doesn't make powder. H1000 is sold by Hodgdon. </div></div>

Yeah...what Rob said

Getting the H companies mixed up.

 

[Jig Stick]

Re: H1000 problems

my 300wm shot like shit with H1000. I threw it out. I got really good performance from R22, but even better from H4831SC. Ive found the 4831sc to be very forgiving, very temp stable, and push my 210g berger VLDs to 2900+ with no pressure signs at all. Honestly...I wont shoot anything other powder in my winmag than 4831sc

 

[jrob300]

Re: H1000 problems

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jig Stick</div><div class="ubbcode-body">my 300wm shot like shit with H1000. I threw it out. I got really good performance from R22, but even better from H4831SC. Ive found the 4831sc to be very forgiving, very temp stable, and push my 210g berger VLDs to 2900+ with no pressure signs at all. Honestly...I wont shoot anything other powder in my winmag than 4831sc </div></div>

Different rifles... different results... I found 4831 too fast for my WM with 200 gr. SMK's, let alone 208 Amax's. Reached pressure before I got to my velocity goal. H1000 suits me much better. I'm getting 2875 fps with good accuracy and no pressure sign with the 208's and that is with a 22" barrel.

John

 

[shocking300]

Re: H1000 problems

Well thanks to all who posted, I had to drop down 1 1/2 from 77.5 and i am back to 1/2" groups at 200 Yards, tried to get another 8lb from same lot number no luck. I think its live and learn never thougth would be that much differance between jugs. Thanks agian

 

[sandwarrior]

Re: H1000 problems

If you can do it without interfering with accuracy, you might try seating your bullets deeper in the case to gain some of that velocity back. That allows them to get a little more 'run' at the lands and therefore, a little more velocity.

BTW, for safety you should always work back up to your old load when changing powder. Different lot's have different consistencies and if you're anywhere near max you can get an overpressure situation if the new jug is a hotter mix than the old jug.

 

[Niles Coyote]

Re: H1000 problems

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sandwarrior</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you can do it without interfering with accuracy, you might try seating your bullets deeper in the case to gain some of that velocity back. That allows them to get a little more 'run' at the lands and therefore, a little more velocity. </div></div>

Not saying you’re wrong but... I observed the opposite yesterday in my 223. loaded -.005 from the lands was 50 fps faster that the load jumping from 2.260". I don’t have the exact measurement on the -.005 but it was around 2.400. Everything but the OAL was the same.

 

[timelinex]

Re: H1000 problems

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Niles Coyote</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sandwarrior</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you can do it without interfering with accuracy, you might try seating your bullets deeper in the case to gain some of that velocity back. That allows them to get a little more 'run' at the lands and therefore, a little more velocity. </div></div>

Not saying you’re wrong but... I observed the opposite yesterday in my 223. loaded -.005 from the lands was 50 fps faster that the load jumping from 2.260". I don’t have the exact measurement on the -.005 but it was around 2.400. Everything but the OAL was the same. </div></div>

+1

Everything I have read and experienced is that jamming into the lands raises pressure and velocity

 

[sandwarrior]

Re: H1000 problems

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: timelinex</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Niles Coyote</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sandwarrior</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you can do it without interfering with accuracy, you might try seating your bullets deeper in the case to gain some of that velocity back. That allows them to get a little more 'run' at the lands and therefore, a little more velocity. </div></div>

Not saying you’re wrong but... I observed the opposite yesterday in my 223. loaded -.005 from the lands was 50 fps faster that the load jumping from 2.260". I don’t have the exact measurement on the -.005 but it was around 2.400. Everything but the OAL was the same. </div></div>

+1

Everything I have read and experienced is that jamming into the lands raises pressure and velocity</div></div>

For the most part my experience has shown that getting a run at the lands increases velocity. The two most notable examples of this are the 5.56 vs. .223 issue and the Weatherby Cartridges. An increase in pressure doesn't necessarily mean an increase in velocity. Timeliness of the peak of the pressure curve is paramount to getting max velocity.

Niles, As you experienced the opposite with your .223 it could well have been the load. A change-up in that may increase your velocity. Then again, it might do other things you wish not to happen. Meaning excessive barrel erosion, loss of accuracy, etc.
A change-up isn't necessary, just something to consider if looking for more velocity or for better accuracy. Level of accuracy is most always optional.

 

[Niles Coyote]

Re: H1000 problems

It wasn't the load, I intentionally made them the same except for the seating depth.

I am by no means an expert in this subject but...

As I understand it, the cartridge that has a bullet jumping to the lands has less pressure.

Ok, but Why???

As the powder turns into gas, pressure increases until it can unseat the bullet. Pushing the bullet forward into the lands a ways where the bullet then stops until the pressure builds enough to push it down and out. From my understanding this was tested by Crane and a bullet can stop 2-3 times before exiting. This is one reason why Moly and HBN lower chamber pressures. The bullet is able to slide a longer distance down the barrel before stopping thereby increasing the size of the combustion chamber and requires more fuel to reach the same velocity than a non-coated projectile. But that’s a different topic. Getting back on point, a bullet starting at the lands or very near them requires a higher pressure to be reached before the bullet can unseat/move into the lands. Think of it like a speed bump. A car parked at the bump requires more energy to move up and over than a car that starts a foot or so back... because it has mass already in motion working in its favor.

 

[sandwarrior]

Re: H1000 problems

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Niles Coyote</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It wasn't the load, I intentionally made them the same except for the seating depth.

...

As I understand it, the cartridge that has a bullet jumping to the lands has less pressure.

...

</div></div>

It more than likely was the load. A relatively slower burning powder in a given cartridge will build more pressure just like a faster burning powder. But, as the gas builds and the bullet moves down the lands the slower powder still has more gas to push the bullet where as the faster powder is going to run out of gas pressure sooner as it peaked in pressure sooner.

A couple things I've found over the years:

If you put a bullet to or into the lands you will get a higher pressure spike than with the bullet off the lands.

During a high pressure spike such as the one described above, powder burns will speed up. Faster powders normally acceptable for a case are the ones that tend to pop primers while doing this as their spike is sharper than slower powders.

Seating a bullet way off the lands does tend to eliminate that pressure spike. There is a small pressure increase when seating bullets deeper, but in rifles, it's pretty much negligible.

Seating a bullet way off the lands does NOT enhance accuracy. With the right leade/throat though, accuracy is usually still quite within acceptable standards. Benchrest level of accuracy is where most of that complaint comes from. The 5.56 example is appropriate here as quite often MOA is achieved with a scope on a relatively new rifle.

When the bullet gets a 'run' at the lands, it tends not to stop. Again, pressure curve is paramount to making this a success. Wby and the 5.56 both use a relatively fast (for case size), high pressure powder. So the pressure spike can occur early. With the bullet not stopping and hitting the lands the spike doesn't go so high as to damage the case. Meanwhile the bullet continues down the lands much farther, fully engraving itself, thereby reducing friction. Moly and HB2 do this much better, but Moly especially has shown drawbacks. While lower pressures on equal loads showed less velocity, when pressures were equalized, moly and HB2 both showed increases in velocity.

Anyhow, I've got to get going here, I'll stay in touch on the subject. Whatever reasons we give though, keep doing what's working for you.

 

[aauya]

Re: H1000 problems

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Niles Coyote</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It wasn't the load, I intentionally made them the same except for the seating depth.

...

As I understand it, the cartridge that has a bullet jumping to the lands has less pressure.

...

</div></div>

It more than likely was the load. A relatively slower burning powder in a given cartridge will build more pressure just like a faster burning powder. But, as the gas builds and the bullet moves down the lands the slower powder still has more gas to push the bullet where as the faster powder is going to run out of gas pressure sooner as it peaked in pressure sooner.

A couple things I've found over the years:

If you put a bullet to or into the lands you will get a higher pressure spike than with the bullet off the lands.

During a high pressure spike such as the one described above, powder burns will speed up. Faster powders normally acceptable for a case are the ones that tend to pop primers while doing this as their spike is sharper than slower powders.

Seating a bullet way off the lands does tend to eliminate that pressure spike. There is a small pressure increase when seating bullets deeper, but in rifles, it's pretty much negligible.

Seating a bullet way off the lands does NOT enhance accuracy. With the right leade/throat though, accuracy is usually still quite within acceptable standards. Benchrest level of accuracy is where most of that complaint comes from. The 5.56 example is appropriate here as quite often MOA is achieved with a scope on a relatively new rifle.

When the bullet gets a 'run' at the lands, it tends not to stop. Again, pressure curve is paramount to making this a success. Wby and the 5.56 both use a relatively fast (for case size), high pressure powder. So the pressure spike can occur early. With the bullet not stopping and hitting the lands the spike doesn't go so high as to damage the case. Meanwhile the bullet continues down the lands much farther, fully engraving itself, thereby reducing friction. Moly and HB2 do this much better, but Moly especially has shown drawbacks. While lower pressures on equal loads showed less velocity, when pressures were equalized, moly and HB2 both showed increases in velocity.

Anyhow, I've got to get going here, I'll stay in touch on the subject. Whatever reasons we give though, keep doing what's working for you.

Just got a new eight pound jug of h1000 loaded my normal loads of 78.5 what a 200 eld-x my original load was 3053 6.8 SD with the new lot of powder speed went to 3158 with a 17.6 SD And leaving some serious extractor marks I thought it was me . Pulled the loads apart and they were 78.5, I never seen a hundred feet per second Spike

 

[BigTex]

Just got a new eight pound jug of h1000 loaded my normal loads of 78.5 what a 200 eld-x my original load was 3053 6.8 SD with the new lot of powder speed went to 3158 with a 17.6 SD And leaving some serious extractor marks I thought it was me . Pulled the loads apart and they were 78.5, I never seen a hundred feet per second Spike

Necrothread

 

[sandwarrior]

Just got a new eight pound jug of h1000 loaded my normal loads of 78.5 what a 200 eld-x my original load was 3053 6.8 SD with the new lot of powder speed went to 3158 with a 17.6 SD And leaving some serious extractor marks I thought it was me . Pulled the loads apart and they were 78.5, I never seen a hundred feet per second Spike

With a new lot of powder, why did you not do a short ladder to see where you were at pressure wise. You are pretty near max with 78.5, I would have backed off and run a few up from 72.0, which is Hodgdon's starting load. Their max is 77.0 Those loads seem a little tame compared to the book I was using as I remember the max load being 80.0-ish. I remember running 210's at 75.0

What book are you using for your load reference?