Rifle Scopes H58 vs. H59

[WVshooter]

I've been considering climbing the scope ladder a little bit as I work into some more training classes this year. I'm still a novice at the long range game starting about this time last year and have been using the Mil-quad reticle in the SS 5-20. So I've been considering getting a new Leupold scope since they have some deep discounts and they have the H58 reticle available in their Mark6 and 8 line. The H59 looks like a better reticle from what I have seen and there is the Bushnell HDMR option for that. I don't know of any way to get behind any of these scopes in person so just looking for opinions as to whether the H59 is a true improvement over the H58 and if so is it worth paying possibly more money and getting into a different brand like the bushnell or go with the Leupold and get the H58?

Sorry if this is hitting too many bases with one question but it's what I've been mulling over so I'm open to any suggestions or criticism.

 

[BORG_888]

I'd consider the Horus H37 reticle. The off-centered crosshair allows you to shoot out to 1000 yards without adjusting your elevation knobs. Downside being that this reticle tends to look very busy, especially if you're not used to it.

 

[Eric B.]

The H 59 reticle has obviously wider horizontal crosshairs toward the bottom (Christmas tree effect) for greater ability to compensate for wind as the distance increases and the lower croshairs come into use. That's why Horus changed it and that is the only difference between the two.

 

[vinsonr]

The H-59 also has a dot for the midpoint of the crosshairs instead of solid lines.

 

[WVshooter]

I guess the dot almost seems inconsequential unless you are shooting at a very small target or very long range and dialing instead of holding. The extra hashes for windage look more useful for making the wind corrections if you have to deal with wind plus I guess for making second shot corrections.

The H59 seems preferable but I don't know that it would be worth paying a price premium for me at this point.

So for those that use these reticles do you pretty much never dial anymore? Other than maybe turning in 5 or 10 mils at longer ranges so you don't have to hold so far down on the grid or back the power off to see your hold point.

 

[scudzuki]

If you have the option go with the H59, it is an evolution of the H58 and the changes are all improvements IMHO.

Joe

 

[Graham]

It is an evolution of the H58 and the changes are all improvements IMHO.

.... And by 'evolution' he means 'marketing gimmick' and by 'improvement' he means 'minor change'.

That is, unless you always miss low and your low misses get further from the target the more you practice.

How well is your $400 reticle upgrade going to work for hold-unders?

 

[Coltster]

How is an extra mil for wind holds a gimmick?

 

[Graham]

How is an extra mil for wind holds a gimmick?

Because it's in no way necessary for its intended purpose.

 

[scudzuki]

.... And by 'evolution' he means 'marketing gimmick' and by 'improvement' he means 'minor change'.

That is, unless you always miss low and your low misses get further from the target the more you practice.

How well is your $400 reticle upgrade going to work for hold-unders?

H59 works as well as the H58 for hold unders, and how often do you need hold unders with an appropriate zero anyway?

The purpose of the Horus reticles is to eliminate dialing for quick target acquisition at multiple ranges, not for small corrections to your dialed corrections, and any hold for a range in excess of your zero is going to be a holdover.

I guess I was not clear when I wrote "if it is an option"; if there is no financial penalty for choosing H59 over H58, it is better IMHO.
The stadia in either version are quite thick so the floating dot is an improvement, and the additional wind holds are an inprovement.
$400 upcharge to go to the 59 over the 58 is insane.

Joe

 

[Coltster]

Because it's in no way necessary for its intended purpose.

So I take it you don't shoot in 20mph winds? Weird because it works like a charm for me, way faster than dialing for changing wind conditions.

 

[Graham]

H59 works as well as the H58 for hold unders, and how often do you need hold unders with an appropriate zero anyway?

The purpose of the Horus reticles is to eliminate dialing for quick target acquisition at multiple ranges, not for small corrections to your dialed corrections, and any hold for a range in excess of your zero is going to be a holdover.

You are correct: The H58 doesn't work for hold-unders either. So why pay more for a reticle that does less?

Newsflash: All gradiated reticles give the shooter the option of dialing or holding regardless of whether one is shooting multiple targets at multiple ranges. You've got it backwards: The Horus has nothing to do with target acquisition. Horus claims faster and more accurate minor corrections for second round hits; of course, that has not been proven and is often not the case.

 

[Graham]

So I take it you don't shoot in 20mph winds? Weird because it works like a charm for me, way faster than dialing for changing wind conditions.

It's not about the strength of the wind. And it's not about dialing, either. In fact, when the wind really picks up you will often find yourself both dialing and holding.

 

[Coltster]

It's not about the strength of the wind. And it's not about dialing, either.

Soooooo?????

 

[Graham]

Soooooo?????

So you got it backwards: Shooting in high winds requires the opposite of what you implied in your post.

Wind strength, by itself, does not determine the wind hold.

 

[scudzuki]

You are correct: The H58 doesn't work for hold-unders either. So why pay more for a reticle that does less?

Newsflash: All gradiated reticles give the shooter the option of dialing or holding regardless of whether one is shooting multiple targets at multiple ranges. You've got it backwards: The Horus has nothing to do with target acquisition. Horus claims faster and more accurate minor corrections for second round hits; of course, that has not been proven and is often not the case.

I don't give a f*ck how Horus advertises their reticle.
Anyone with a brain can figure out that a reticle does not need 30 mils of holdover and 3 to 6 mils of wind hold hashes for "minor corrections".
Why would I pay all that money for a reticle that covers so much of the FOV (which is not a "feature", it's a downside) unless I was going to use holds exclusively?
If I dial my dope then require a holdover for a correction, I shouldn't need more than a few mils at the most, and I certainly don't need any Horus reticle for that.

I had an HDMR with an H59 for a few weeks. I bought it used from a Hide member. Ultimately I sold it back to him; he realized how much he missed the H59 and the speed with which he could acquire targets at various distances without touching a knob, and I wanted a different scope altogether. You wanna argue with him about the utility of an H59 reticle, too?


Joe

 

[steve123]

I guess the dot almost seems inconsequential unless you are shooting at a very small target or very long range and dialing instead of holding. The extra hashes for windage look more useful for making the wind corrections if you have to deal with wind plus I guess for making second shot corrections.

The H59 seems preferable but I don't know that it would be worth paying a price premium for me at this point.

So for those that use these reticles do you pretty much never dial anymore? Other than maybe turning in 5 or 10 mils at longer ranges so you don't have to hold so far down on the grid or back the power off to see your hold point.

All of the above^

For me it's all about versatility and use whatever feature I need at the moment.

If I were shooting a sport like F-class I'd dial elevation and hold windage and keep the mag all the way up or at whatever mag the mirage would allow.

ELR, I dial the solution or if need be holdover the rest if I'm running out of elevation. I usually holdoff but if there's 3-4 mils of windage needed I dial that too.

General long range, practice, out shooting with friends, I holdover/off.

Field courses I usually holdover/off but sometimes I dial and holdoff for the fun of it.

Tactical matches I usually dial except for stages where holdovers can save me some time.

I like the dot in the H-59 for precision, just suits me.

I try to use one of the small floating dots on the H-58 for precision, ".5 mil down and .5 mil right" for my aim point for shooting groups, sometimes I get confused and dial the opposite way though and end up a full mill away from where I'm supposed to be. I hate that! If Horus would make fine a fine crosshair at the main intersection on the H-58 the reticle it would be much more appealing to those that don't like dots.


For the most part I can holdover/off and hit stuff with enough competency to be competitive. I have a Horus scope that doesn't track well, it was my first FFP scope and I couldn't afford anything else at the time so I used holdovers/offs for everything. In a way it was a good experience because I became proficient with holdovers and found out that I could win using holdovers only with a Horus reticle.

 

[WVshooter]

Thanks that's all good info. It's a lot to think about. I'd like to get involved in competitive shooting at some point but still learning to shoot the gun and use the gear for now.

 

[Graham]

I don't give a f*ck how Horus advertises their reticle.
Anyone with a brain can figure out that a reticle does not need 30 mils of holdover and 3 to 6 mils of wind hold hashes for "minor corrections".
Why would I pay all that money for a reticle that covers so much of the FOV (which is not a "feature", it's a downside) unless I was going to use holds exclusively?
If I dial my dope then require a holdover for a correction, I shouldn't need more than a few mils at the most, and I certainly don't need any Horus reticle for that.
I had an HDMR with an H59 for a few weeks.

You've begun arguing against yourself, and against your original post.

 

[THLR]

Horus claims faster and more accurate minor corrections for second round hits; of course, that has not been proven and is often not the case.

I'm not going to be as brusque, but I'll second Graham.

Changing POA in the reticle is rather counterproductive for the trigger reflex and accurate shooting. The human physiology has severe limitations when required to handle that many reference points in a rapidly developing scenario.

 

[scudzuki]

You've begun arguing against yourself, and against your original post.

No I haven't.
I stated the changes to the H59 are improvements over the H58.

Nothing I have written since contradicts this.

Joe

 

[Graham]

Changing POA in the reticle is rather counterproductive for the trigger reflex and accurate shooting. The human physiology has severe limitations when required to handle that many reference points in a rapidly developing scenario.

I'm not sure what this means, or how it applies, but a) dialing is not faster than holding; and b) when you don't dial on multiple targets at multiple distances you must remember two numbers for each engagement instead of one.

I shot a Horus H25 in comps for a year, and I liked it. But it didn't do anything for me that a good Mil reticle doesn't already do, and it didn't make anything either more convenient or faster. The value of (a good) Horus reticle is in its ability to train new shooters and less experienced shooters in how to correctly use a reticle. That's one reason why some people in the military like it as much as they do.

 

[Nukes]

H59

I prefer the center dot.
I find the 'Christmas Tree' helpful for 2nd shots on my missed wind calls and missed movers.

 

[Dogtown]

The center dot does make a difference to me. While initially I didn't think it was an improvement over the H58, I've now shot mine in a few competitions and the last two times I was really happy I had that dot when ringing small steel plates. The dot naturally centers up better on them, I think.

 

[bogeybrown]

Might be worth researching the TReMor 2 reticle as well if you're considering the Horus. It's not for everyone, but it IS a more substantial difference than that of the H-58 vs the H-59. Only you can decide which of the variants is going to best suit your intended purpose, but a gridded reticle is an awesome tool if you're looking to shoot more complex scenarios (mulitple distances, wind values, movers, etc.)

 

[BLDTYLRY]

I'm running a Bushnell XRS 4.5-30x50 H59 and it makes engadging multiple targets at different ranges and wind doping much more precise.

 

[DesertLefty]

The center dot does make a difference to me.

+1 for center dots. I've got an IOR 3-18x42 FFP with their modified MP-8 reticle and I love the dot.

 

[Bevan]

P4F or TMR. hah.

 

[RonboF117]

We've been shooting the H-59 for about six months now and prefer it over the others Horus reticles we have tried. The center dot and de-weighting of the lines help.

 

[elkregulator]

I picked up the H-59 this year to play with. So far I like it- quick easy to use/learn. The center dot is a bonus while shooting groups and working up loads.

 

[steve123]

For dialing I like the H-59 better. I prefer the dot for aiming rather than a thick crosshair like the H-58 has. For holding over there's not much difference, as there's almost always some wind present at the longer distances so we'd be holding off anyways, or at least I do.

For hunting big game, and dialing, while needing to see the crosshair on lower magnification, the thicker crosshair of the H58 is probably more beneficial.