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Rifle Scopes h59 or tremor2
- Thread starter urmaker45
- Start date
I had this same discussion while looking at a MK6 3-18 and I decided on neither.
The Tremor2 is busy as shit and I'd get lost in it. If you would move my scope up and down with me looking through it I'd have an epileptic seizure. From my understanding, the Christmas tree portion of the bottom reticle is based on Horus math for a specific caliber/bullet weight/fps and may not agree with what you are actually shooting. Sure you can use the mils off the main center line but why incur all of that now useless clutter that you won't use?
The H59 is roughly the same in that its busy as shit. However, it doesn't have any proprietary markings based on a caliber/bullet/fps you may not be using. I believe the quick mil measurements on a man-sized target are in meters so beware of that if using yards. Overall, its just too much clutter to get lost in, and the area you'd REALLY need precision holds in (towards the bottom if holding for extreme ranges) is just a sea of marks.
If I get the MK6, it would probably be with the TMR.
The Tremor2 is busy as shit and I'd get lost in it. If you would move my scope up and down with me looking through it I'd have an epileptic seizure. From my understanding, the Christmas tree portion of the bottom reticle is based on Horus math for a specific caliber/bullet weight/fps and may not agree with what you are actually shooting. Sure you can use the mils off the main center line but why incur all of that now useless clutter that you won't use?
The H59 is roughly the same in that its busy as shit. However, it doesn't have any proprietary markings based on a caliber/bullet/fps you may not be using. I believe the quick mil measurements on a man-sized target are in meters so beware of that if using yards. Overall, its just too much clutter to get lost in, and the area you'd REALLY need precision holds in (towards the bottom if holding for extreme ranges) is just a sea of marks.
If I get the MK6, it would probably be with the TMR.
German and OP,
The Horus line is based for any caliber weapon. The wind dots on tremor 2 also work for any caliber. Again it just takes studying and getting used to.
It is really busy up front but once you get used to it (half a days use) your eyes can naturally close out the other dots.
Have you ever looked at a piece of paper with dots on it and focused on one and notice the others disappear? Same optical illusion effect. You may also notice this if you have a scope level attached on the ring. You use your non shooting eye to focus on it to make sure
Level is okay then go back to your dominant eye focusing on your reticle while the level disappears from view .
But to answer the OP,
The Horus line and tremor2 specifically is designed for rapid engagements out to 610m without dialing in any wind condition. It has a battle specific feature. If you do dial the wind dots still work!! For competition shooters not so much as they need to be gnats ass precise, so they will prefer to take the extra time to make first shot count.
Since you're shooting a 308 you'll be subject to more wind and the wind dots may help you. Both reticles will work for a 308 going out to 1k.
The Horus line is based for any caliber weapon. The wind dots on tremor 2 also work for any caliber. Again it just takes studying and getting used to.
It is really busy up front but once you get used to it (half a days use) your eyes can naturally close out the other dots.
Have you ever looked at a piece of paper with dots on it and focused on one and notice the others disappear? Same optical illusion effect. You may also notice this if you have a scope level attached on the ring. You use your non shooting eye to focus on it to make sure
Level is okay then go back to your dominant eye focusing on your reticle while the level disappears from view .
But to answer the OP,
The Horus line and tremor2 specifically is designed for rapid engagements out to 610m without dialing in any wind condition. It has a battle specific feature. If you do dial the wind dots still work!! For competition shooters not so much as they need to be gnats ass precise, so they will prefer to take the extra time to make first shot count.
Since you're shooting a 308 you'll be subject to more wind and the wind dots may help you. Both reticles will work for a 308 going out to 1k.
I stand corrected. Ghengis explained a few things to me via PM and I re-read the Horus manual for the Tremor 2 and am liking it a bit more now.
They are for different applications as Gengis says:
H59 - This is a Mil based equal stadia reticle, so it's good for precision and it's pretty fast, and it is a good all round reticle if hold over and off is what you want. Some people think it's busy, some don't... you're the only person that can answer that question for yourself.
TReMoR2 - This is a high speed / semi-accurate reticle. By semi accurate; it uses WindDots to indicate how much wind influences a projectile at different ranges. These WindDots are based on a generic projectile (308 in this case), and although they have Mil X&Y values and therefore 'can' be specific, the system is however designed for extremely 'close' averages which allows you to hit 2+ MOA targets in quick estimated wind conditions without having to convert from wind speed at distance down to Mils hold off. The system can be highly accurately 'trued' with a bit of easy enough math work. What is great about it is the follow up shot, as if you can spot the hit, then it indicates the wind speed relative to the WindDots and you merely use that value for all other targets at different distances in the same general heading. I actually find this reticle less cluttered than the H59. The TReMoR2 also has standard equal stadia, but not nearly as many as a H59, so you can get spotter feedback if you need to.
So if you're looking to hit multiple 2+ MOA targets with 1st round hits while under the clock, this is a good reticle.
You can turn a H59 into a TReMoR2 by doing the trajectory math yourself and creating your own WindDot DOPE sheet, but this obviously means you need to spot your hit, then read off the measurement, then refer back to your DOPE graph and read off the wind effect. Thereafter transition to a different target is as easy as reading the range, then consulting the WindDot DOPE graph and then lining up for the next shot. The difference is that this method will give you an exact WindDot position, where the TReMoR2 will give you a 'close' WindDot. It's all about speed.
Also be careful of your choice of Horus reticles when shooting a 308 out to 1000m. With the amount of drop of a 308, you might find that at maximum magnification over 18-20x that you can no longer see the part of the reticle that you need to use to hold over. While this is not a problem with the H59 as you can just dial 5 more vertical Mil, the TReMoR2 can't as it is then no longer is calibrated. Regardless; if you're shooting 2+ MOA targets, then any magnification over 10x really will do, as you should easily be able to see and engage targets of that size from 10x upwards.
If you want to shoot precision targets at 1000m at maximum magnification, then maybe the H37 is a better choice, as it includes a 4Mil vertical offset so when you zoom in, the 4Mil vertical is in the centre of the scope, not the 0 Mil.
H59 - This is a Mil based equal stadia reticle, so it's good for precision and it's pretty fast, and it is a good all round reticle if hold over and off is what you want. Some people think it's busy, some don't... you're the only person that can answer that question for yourself.
TReMoR2 - This is a high speed / semi-accurate reticle. By semi accurate; it uses WindDots to indicate how much wind influences a projectile at different ranges. These WindDots are based on a generic projectile (308 in this case), and although they have Mil X&Y values and therefore 'can' be specific, the system is however designed for extremely 'close' averages which allows you to hit 2+ MOA targets in quick estimated wind conditions without having to convert from wind speed at distance down to Mils hold off. The system can be highly accurately 'trued' with a bit of easy enough math work. What is great about it is the follow up shot, as if you can spot the hit, then it indicates the wind speed relative to the WindDots and you merely use that value for all other targets at different distances in the same general heading. I actually find this reticle less cluttered than the H59. The TReMoR2 also has standard equal stadia, but not nearly as many as a H59, so you can get spotter feedback if you need to.
So if you're looking to hit multiple 2+ MOA targets with 1st round hits while under the clock, this is a good reticle.
You can turn a H59 into a TReMoR2 by doing the trajectory math yourself and creating your own WindDot DOPE sheet, but this obviously means you need to spot your hit, then read off the measurement, then refer back to your DOPE graph and read off the wind effect. Thereafter transition to a different target is as easy as reading the range, then consulting the WindDot DOPE graph and then lining up for the next shot. The difference is that this method will give you an exact WindDot position, where the TReMoR2 will give you a 'close' WindDot. It's all about speed.
Also be careful of your choice of Horus reticles when shooting a 308 out to 1000m. With the amount of drop of a 308, you might find that at maximum magnification over 18-20x that you can no longer see the part of the reticle that you need to use to hold over. While this is not a problem with the H59 as you can just dial 5 more vertical Mil, the TReMoR2 can't as it is then no longer is calibrated. Regardless; if you're shooting 2+ MOA targets, then any magnification over 10x really will do, as you should easily be able to see and engage targets of that size from 10x upwards.
If you want to shoot precision targets at 1000m at maximum magnification, then maybe the H37 is a better choice, as it includes a 4Mil vertical offset so when you zoom in, the 4Mil vertical is in the centre of the scope, not the 0 Mil.
Day lite,
Correct on all accounts except wind dot values. They scale with dialing! Values change ie:
Say it's a 308 and you need to hit at the 8mil line and you have 10mph wind (so between 2nd and 3rd wind dot, since each dot would equal 4mph based on bc).
Say you dial 5 and now holding at the 3 mil line. You would hit with the 5th wind dot as the values decreased by half . Don't know exact math on this but if you scale up from the 2.5 8mil line wind dot it corresponds to the 5th wind dot.
Correct on all accounts except wind dot values. They scale with dialing! Values change ie:
Say it's a 308 and you need to hit at the 8mil line and you have 10mph wind (so between 2nd and 3rd wind dot, since each dot would equal 4mph based on bc).
Say you dial 5 and now holding at the 3 mil line. You would hit with the 5th wind dot as the values decreased by half . Don't know exact math on this but if you scale up from the 2.5 8mil line wind dot it corresponds to the 5th wind dot.
Holy Shit. I have a decent familiarity and that makes my head hurt. I stick with the regular Horus simply because a mil is always a mil no matter what I've dialed. If I have to solve for Pi to get a solution I'd rather just shoot and chase the splash
Excellent explanation though. I was under the (mistaken) impression that the dots were no longer scaled if you dialed on some elevation.
With standard Horus reticles holding off for wind becomes fairly intuitive when you use the same cartridge/s with similar wind drifts. For instance 6.5 Creed/140's or 6x47L/115's. You get used to utilizing the .2 mil lines and even bracketing them for .1 mil. After a while you know how far out to aim because you've already done so many times in practice and at matches.
Considering that a standard 308 load has nearly twice the wind drift of those two mentioned, I personally wouldn't want to even try a T2 for the wind cheater cartridges. I could maybe see some value for 223 or 308 though.
Considering that a standard 308 load has nearly twice the wind drift of those two mentioned, I personally wouldn't want to even try a T2 for the wind cheater cartridges. I could maybe see some value for 223 or 308 though.
If you have to choose either, I would go H59. Though I will say that even with the H58 I have on a Leupold Mk6 3-18 and honestly I do not use the reticle as much as I originally intended. It's just too cluttered to really see some of your misses at distance. A more simplified Christmas tree reticle such as the Bushnell G2 or the Premier Gen 2 XR would probably be better if you want that style of reticle.
Steve I use a tremor2 with my 260 remington. Works like a charm! Makes it even more fun to shoot at 15+ mph winds with 20 gusts
I purchased a Bushnell HDMR 3.5-21 within the last few months and struggled with the question of reticle choice (I am a Mil-dot guy). I decided to go with the H59 and am very happy with my choice, I can't speak on behalf of the TREMOR 2 because I have never used one but I can say that I settled right in with the H59. At first I thought it was going to be entirely too busy for me, but I picked it up pretty naturally and will be using it as my reticle of choice on all future scope purchases. I first had it mounted on my LaRue Tactical Stealth Sniper System in 5.56 (while I waited for my 700 to come in) and now it sits atop my Remington 700. The wind holds on the 5.56 were very helpful and I have shot it in high and no wind situations since on the .308. There are a lot of online resources available for learning to properly use the reticle and I am still learning the finer points of it but I have to say I am quite impressed. I hope this helps!
E4B
E4B
I use a Bushnell XRS with an H59. I love it. Any busy-ness is gone after an hour or two of shooting. Keep in mind, with a first focal plane scope if you are not able to see enough of the reticle because you're shooting at 1k and you want higher magnification simply dial up a few mils, and hold the rest.
yes but the reticle is not made for the scope to be dialed if you hold off on the 3rd wind dot it will be the 3rd dot when you hold over 8 mils or 1 mil. each wind dots represent a certain mph of wind according to what you are shooting.
Negative, the reticle is a multi versed tool and when you dial the wind dot value changes to lesser values. So let's say you have a target at 800 meters and without dialing your dots are worth 4 mph. Instead of holding at the bottom of your scope on the 8 mil line (example) you dial on 5 mils and now you can hold the target on the 3 mil line and because you dialed on those dot values are now 2 mph. This gives you a finer bracket for wind and allows you to use those dots to bracket target.
• T • < -- now you have target bracketed in 2 mph increments. So basically your fine tuning your wind call Downrange.
I highly recommend everyone to pick up the Accuracy 1st dvd on the Tremor 2. It will solve all of your questions.
• T • < -- now you have target bracketed in 2 mph increments. So basically your fine tuning your wind call Downrange.
I highly recommend everyone to pick up the Accuracy 1st dvd on the Tremor 2. It will solve all of your questions.
i am getting it. very nice explanation. after i read it i understood the other comment.
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