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Hand loading for Long range 1: brass case prep
- Thread starter TresMon
- Start date
Re: Hand loading for Long range 1: brass case prep
Good write up. Nice read.
In regard to weighing the water. I normally buy 500-800 pieces of brass for a rifle. I then separate into different piles by weight. I go to +or 1 grain in weight. Regardless of how many piles I have. With Winchester brass I normally end up with 5 piles. Sometimes 6. I also tried weighing the volume of water in the case. I have found that after weighing the cases the volume in each(weighed) pile is extremely consistent. So IMO you are getting a very close read with case weight to volume ratio.
I also weigh the brass when it is new right out of the bag. I concede there may be something to weighing it after case prep, but I have not tried it, so my remarks would be uninformed.
If I can get a pile of 100-150 pieces of brass with consistent weight then I am just tickled. Life is good from there on. But then 100 cases at a time is more than adequate for my shooting and hunting. I am not a competitor. Tom.
Good write up. Nice read.
In regard to weighing the water. I normally buy 500-800 pieces of brass for a rifle. I then separate into different piles by weight. I go to +or 1 grain in weight. Regardless of how many piles I have. With Winchester brass I normally end up with 5 piles. Sometimes 6. I also tried weighing the volume of water in the case. I have found that after weighing the cases the volume in each(weighed) pile is extremely consistent. So IMO you are getting a very close read with case weight to volume ratio.
I also weigh the brass when it is new right out of the bag. I concede there may be something to weighing it after case prep, but I have not tried it, so my remarks would be uninformed.
If I can get a pile of 100-150 pieces of brass with consistent weight then I am just tickled. Life is good from there on. But then 100 cases at a time is more than adequate for my shooting and hunting. I am not a competitor. Tom.
Re: Hand loading for Long range 1: brass case prep
First off, this is a great and helpful thread. Thank you all for your input. My question is about fireforming.When you fireform factory new brass, is it vital to full size them before you fireform them as long as they chamber? If I have done all the prep work that I'm willing to do, would just shooting them make less consistent? Is it a good idea to fireform with bullet lightly on lands to help even expansion? thanks for the help.
First off, this is a great and helpful thread. Thank you all for your input. My question is about fireforming.When you fireform factory new brass, is it vital to full size them before you fireform them as long as they chamber? If I have done all the prep work that I'm willing to do, would just shooting them make less consistent? Is it a good idea to fireform with bullet lightly on lands to help even expansion? thanks for the help.
Re: Hand loading for Long range 1: brass case prep
Tresmon- great post, I just ordered the tool from Sinclair and am getting ready to use this method. My only question is after shooting new or once fired brass that had been FL sized is the case fully formed or will it make a couple firings? If its not fully formed and you measure and bump by .003 at this point will it ever fully form?
Tresmon- great post, I just ordered the tool from Sinclair and am getting ready to use this method. My only question is after shooting new or once fired brass that had been FL sized is the case fully formed or will it make a couple firings? If its not fully formed and you measure and bump by .003 at this point will it ever fully form?
Re: Hand loading for Long range 1: brass case prep
Wow, what a reservoir of great information here! Thanks for the generous investment of time and knowledge.
Wow, what a reservoir of great information here! Thanks for the generous investment of time and knowledge.
Re: Hand loading for Long range 1: brass case prep
+1 thankyou for the great info and detail tresmon!!
going back a few posts to the ultrasonic cleaning..
i struggled getting good results from mine, but found this article, with a 'magic recipe' and it works brilliantly!!!
i personally tumble my brass, but throw it into the ultrasonic after about 3 firings to return the insides back to factory.
i use the basket, and just lay the brass in any old way, but tip up the cleaner side-to-side to get the air out the cases.
heres the link.. hope you find it as useful as i did!!
http://www.6mmbr.com/ultrasonic.html
+1 thankyou for the great info and detail tresmon!!
going back a few posts to the ultrasonic cleaning..
i struggled getting good results from mine, but found this article, with a 'magic recipe' and it works brilliantly!!!
i personally tumble my brass, but throw it into the ultrasonic after about 3 firings to return the insides back to factory.
i use the basket, and just lay the brass in any old way, but tip up the cleaner side-to-side to get the air out the cases.
heres the link.. hope you find it as useful as i did!!
http://www.6mmbr.com/ultrasonic.html
Re: Hand loading for Long range 1: brass case prep
Glad your happy. I lived in Inverness (Balloch) up in the highlands for the better part of a year. I showed several local boys how to live off the land. The UK's a fine place. I knew I had been there a while when the barber asked me where I was from. I told him "The States" He was shocked and said he had figured I was a highlander for sure. Good stuff,
Tres
Glad your happy. I lived in Inverness (Balloch) up in the highlands for the better part of a year. I showed several local boys how to live off the land. The UK's a fine place. I knew I had been there a while when the barber asked me where I was from. I told him "The States" He was shocked and said he had figured I was a highlander for sure. Good stuff,
Tres
Re: Hand loading for Long range 1: brass case prep
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> He was shocked and said he had figured I was a highlander for sure. </div></div>
ah... that will be your uncanny ability to 'blend' in with your surroundings!!!!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> He was shocked and said he had figured I was a highlander for sure. </div></div>
ah... that will be your uncanny ability to 'blend' in with your surroundings!!!!
Re: Hand loading for Long range 1: brass case prep
after i sooted the brass and sized it, some of the soot remained in the die. will this affect anything and does it need to be cleaned. if so how?
after i sooted the brass and sized it, some of the soot remained in the die. will this affect anything and does it need to be cleaned. if so how?
Re: Hand loading for Long range 1: brass case prep
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mjk0352</div><div class="ubbcode-body">after i sooted the brass and sized it, some of the soot remained in the die. will this affect anything and does it need to be cleaned. if so how?</div></div>
try and keep your dies clean, you can use the same stuff you clean your barrel with if you want.
when i have my dies set where i want, (locking ring etc) i usually mark them with a sharpie pen, a line right down the side of the die, so it lines up with a similar mark i have on my press.
so if you take your dies apart for cleaning or anything, just screw 'em back together till the lines all marry up again.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mjk0352</div><div class="ubbcode-body">after i sooted the brass and sized it, some of the soot remained in the die. will this affect anything and does it need to be cleaned. if so how?</div></div>
try and keep your dies clean, you can use the same stuff you clean your barrel with if you want.
when i have my dies set where i want, (locking ring etc) i usually mark them with a sharpie pen, a line right down the side of the die, so it lines up with a similar mark i have on my press.
so if you take your dies apart for cleaning or anything, just screw 'em back together till the lines all marry up again.
Re: Hand loading for Long range 1: brass case prep
tresmon or others,
What am I doing right or wrong here?
Before, I had horrible <span style="font-weight: bold">E</span>xtreme <span style="font-weight: bold">S</span>preads in my 6.5-284.
So I started experimenting.
I removed the expander ball in my full length size die and started sizing cases without it.
I then ran the brass up a K&M 6.5 expander mandrel to iron out the inside neck and NO I don't turn the necks and don't shoot a match chamber. (I use the K&M mandrel just once in the life of the brass)
In doing so, my ES has shrunk to less than 20 fps from a scattered 50 to 80 with the same loads.
My latest load using 61g of Magnum powder with a 130 Swift S2. I'm getting 3,150 mv
with 8 fps ES and printing a .4.
I figure the neck tension has improved vastly and had a direct effect on my ES.
As far as I can tell, if any imperfections in the brass were forced to the outside due to the mandrel process, I have not seen them.
Am I just lucky?
Edited to add,
I have done this process with my 300 WSM with the same results, lower ES, less than 20 fps.
tresmon or others,
What am I doing right or wrong here?
Before, I had horrible <span style="font-weight: bold">E</span>xtreme <span style="font-weight: bold">S</span>preads in my 6.5-284.
So I started experimenting.
I removed the expander ball in my full length size die and started sizing cases without it.
I then ran the brass up a K&M 6.5 expander mandrel to iron out the inside neck and NO I don't turn the necks and don't shoot a match chamber. (I use the K&M mandrel just once in the life of the brass)
In doing so, my ES has shrunk to less than 20 fps from a scattered 50 to 80 with the same loads.
My latest load using 61g of Magnum powder with a 130 Swift S2. I'm getting 3,150 mv
with 8 fps ES and printing a .4.
I figure the neck tension has improved vastly and had a direct effect on my ES.
As far as I can tell, if any imperfections in the brass were forced to the outside due to the mandrel process, I have not seen them.
Am I just lucky?
Edited to add,
I have done this process with my 300 WSM with the same results, lower ES, less than 20 fps.
Re: Hand loading for Long range 1: brass case prep
Those are fantastic steps for brass prep, I would however like to throw my 2 cents in. Contrary to popular belief, many of us in the match community do not spend nearly the time and effort in brass prep that folks think. (I know I don't for sure.) While the steps that you mentioned will deliver the utmost performance in accurate ammunition, it simply is not a practical process for one who wishes to compete on a regular basis. Furthermore, the steps mentioned will deliver - at best - 1 to 2 tenths MOA. I know folks are gonna jump me already to talk about what 1 to 2 tenths means at 1000 yards but consider this; If I'm loading 50-100 excellent rounds per week for match shooting the brass prep steps mentioned simply are not a viable option.
What is a viable option, is finding a highly tuned and accurized rifle, then finding a load that shoots inside an inch at 500 yards, and of-course memorizing that load's ballistic performance at 50 yard intervals out to 1000 yards. There are many loads out there and every rifle will have it's own preferences, but I would recommend a rifle with a relatively long throat. A long throat will give a shooter so many more options to play with when finding that perfect load, plus you will be able to slightly decrease pressures. For instance: I prefer Reloder 15 for it's higher velocities over Varget, as well as it's lot to lot consistency. However, what do I do if my rifle hates RL-15? I simply play with my C.O.A.L. until I find a load that meets the accuracy requirements that I previously mentioned. All while keeping high velocities and exceptional accuracy without spending a month to make 100 perfect rounds.
When it comes to the actual brass work here are my steps and they are very simple: Tumble for six hours, Primer Pocket Clean, Flash Hole Clean and Debur, Case Neck Clean and Lube, Lube Case, FL Resize, Wipe Case Clean, Trim to 1 thousandth above minimum, Chamfer and Debur, Seat Primers, Load the Weighed Charge, Seat Sorted Bullets, Check all loads for an average C.O.A.L. and re-seat bullets if necessary, then done. I don't even bother with neck turning and all the concentricity work. To me, concentricity means concentration on something other than shooting. Skill with your load and rifle will go a lot farther than a tenth of a MOA.
For the record, I just won the Varmint target shoot yesterday on my .308 Win and 165 Gr. Speer Boat-Tail. I shouldn't have stood a chance against some of those guys, but their weak little varmint rifles and loads couldn't handle the wind like mine.
So here is the short range varmint target load:
308 Winchester
Weatherby Mark V Ultra Lightweight (Yep, thats a hunting rifle)
Leupold VX-3 4.5-14X40 A.O. Scope w/ Duplex Reticle
Hornady Match Brass, Once Fired
Fed 210 Standard Primer
43.0 Grs. Reloder 15 (Starting Load and What I shot yesterday.)
Speer 165 Gr. BTSP (Yep, that's a hunting bullet)
C.O.A.L. = 2.800
MV = 2635 F.P.S.
Shoot was done at 100 and 200 yards and I won 60% of the entrance fee.
Here's my 1000 yard load for ya (same rifle):
Winny brass
Sierra 168 MK
42.0 Grs. Reloder 15
Fed. 210 Standard
C.O.A.L. = 2.800
MV = 2613 F.P.S.
Groups range from 4 to 5 inches at 1000 yards
Absolutely no issues with that load going subsonic at 1000 yards and 3080 Ft. of Altitude.
I could list a ton more of specialized loads for hunting and different conditions but I'm tired of typing.
The Gist is, become a better shooter, and spend a little more time finding a load for your rifle. When you've done that, you won't have to worry about all of that crazy brass prep. It is simply a waste of time and money.
Again, that's my 2 cents, but I am super stoked that so many folks out there are getting into shooting and taking the time to learn about it. Keep up the good work everyone!
Those are fantastic steps for brass prep, I would however like to throw my 2 cents in. Contrary to popular belief, many of us in the match community do not spend nearly the time and effort in brass prep that folks think. (I know I don't for sure.) While the steps that you mentioned will deliver the utmost performance in accurate ammunition, it simply is not a practical process for one who wishes to compete on a regular basis. Furthermore, the steps mentioned will deliver - at best - 1 to 2 tenths MOA. I know folks are gonna jump me already to talk about what 1 to 2 tenths means at 1000 yards but consider this; If I'm loading 50-100 excellent rounds per week for match shooting the brass prep steps mentioned simply are not a viable option.
What is a viable option, is finding a highly tuned and accurized rifle, then finding a load that shoots inside an inch at 500 yards, and of-course memorizing that load's ballistic performance at 50 yard intervals out to 1000 yards. There are many loads out there and every rifle will have it's own preferences, but I would recommend a rifle with a relatively long throat. A long throat will give a shooter so many more options to play with when finding that perfect load, plus you will be able to slightly decrease pressures. For instance: I prefer Reloder 15 for it's higher velocities over Varget, as well as it's lot to lot consistency. However, what do I do if my rifle hates RL-15? I simply play with my C.O.A.L. until I find a load that meets the accuracy requirements that I previously mentioned. All while keeping high velocities and exceptional accuracy without spending a month to make 100 perfect rounds.
When it comes to the actual brass work here are my steps and they are very simple: Tumble for six hours, Primer Pocket Clean, Flash Hole Clean and Debur, Case Neck Clean and Lube, Lube Case, FL Resize, Wipe Case Clean, Trim to 1 thousandth above minimum, Chamfer and Debur, Seat Primers, Load the Weighed Charge, Seat Sorted Bullets, Check all loads for an average C.O.A.L. and re-seat bullets if necessary, then done. I don't even bother with neck turning and all the concentricity work. To me, concentricity means concentration on something other than shooting. Skill with your load and rifle will go a lot farther than a tenth of a MOA.
For the record, I just won the Varmint target shoot yesterday on my .308 Win and 165 Gr. Speer Boat-Tail. I shouldn't have stood a chance against some of those guys, but their weak little varmint rifles and loads couldn't handle the wind like mine.
So here is the short range varmint target load:
308 Winchester
Weatherby Mark V Ultra Lightweight (Yep, thats a hunting rifle)
Leupold VX-3 4.5-14X40 A.O. Scope w/ Duplex Reticle
Hornady Match Brass, Once Fired
Fed 210 Standard Primer
43.0 Grs. Reloder 15 (Starting Load and What I shot yesterday.)
Speer 165 Gr. BTSP (Yep, that's a hunting bullet)
C.O.A.L. = 2.800
MV = 2635 F.P.S.
Shoot was done at 100 and 200 yards and I won 60% of the entrance fee.
Here's my 1000 yard load for ya (same rifle):
Winny brass
Sierra 168 MK
42.0 Grs. Reloder 15
Fed. 210 Standard
C.O.A.L. = 2.800
MV = 2613 F.P.S.
Groups range from 4 to 5 inches at 1000 yards
Absolutely no issues with that load going subsonic at 1000 yards and 3080 Ft. of Altitude.
I could list a ton more of specialized loads for hunting and different conditions but I'm tired of typing.
The Gist is, become a better shooter, and spend a little more time finding a load for your rifle. When you've done that, you won't have to worry about all of that crazy brass prep. It is simply a waste of time and money.
Again, that's my 2 cents, but I am super stoked that so many folks out there are getting into shooting and taking the time to learn about it. Keep up the good work everyone!
Re: Hand loading for Long range 1: brass case prep
"""While the steps that you mentioned will deliver the utmost performance in accurate ammunition"""
EXACTLY: MY objective was to give information on how to get the ultimate ammo created. It is for the reader to determine how far they wish to go with the information.
As far as all else: I call BS on you sir. Your full of crap. Call Weatherby and tell them of your 4.5" @ 1000yds. huntin rifle. I'm sure they will want to buy it back at 5x retail. They'd be proud to know they once created a sub .5 moa 1000 yard hunting rifle. It would be a damn fine marketing tool. Maybe you mean 1000 (really short Korean folk) PACES? My track record on this forum proves I deal gently with people and let alot of things go but... BS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
"""While the steps that you mentioned will deliver the utmost performance in accurate ammunition"""
EXACTLY: MY objective was to give information on how to get the ultimate ammo created. It is for the reader to determine how far they wish to go with the information.
As far as all else: I call BS on you sir. Your full of crap. Call Weatherby and tell them of your 4.5" @ 1000yds. huntin rifle. I'm sure they will want to buy it back at 5x retail. They'd be proud to know they once created a sub .5 moa 1000 yard hunting rifle. It would be a damn fine marketing tool. Maybe you mean 1000 (really short Korean folk) PACES? My track record on this forum proves I deal gently with people and let alot of things go but... BS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Re: Hand loading for Long range 1: brass case prep
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Groups range from 4 to 5 inches at 1000 yards.</div></div>
I'll believe that as soon as you go win the nearest F-class Open class shoot, and post the results.
Or come down to Rifles Only, and shoot one of our matches.
Look forward to seeing you.
Better bring something other than 168s, though. We're at sea level. (Well, 72 feet AMSL.)
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Groups range from 4 to 5 inches at 1000 yards.</div></div>
I'll believe that as soon as you go win the nearest F-class Open class shoot, and post the results.
Or come down to Rifles Only, and shoot one of our matches.
Look forward to seeing you.
Better bring something other than 168s, though. We're at sea level. (Well, 72 feet AMSL.)
Re: Hand loading for Long range 1: brass case prep
Lindy, he's talking one shot groups, bouncing the bullet into the target.
Lindy, he's talking one shot groups, bouncing the bullet into the target.
Re: Hand loading for Long range 1: brass case prep
This is a great post! Very informative for newbies like myself who have heard the theories of bumping back rather than full-size resizing but never quite got it before. Thanks!
This is a great post! Very informative for newbies like myself who have heard the theories of bumping back rather than full-size resizing but never quite got it before. Thanks!
Re: Hand loading for Long range 1: brass case prep
So I worked 50 new Winchester .308 brass through these steps last night. Took an interesting picture! It's the result of all the brass removal from the primer pocket uniforming and flash hole deburing. I was kind of suprised at how much was removed!
10.4 grains of brass removed from the primer pockets on the left, and 20 grains even removed on the right from deburring the flash holes! Just over 30 grains out of 50 cases!
So I worked 50 new Winchester .308 brass through these steps last night. Took an interesting picture! It's the result of all the brass removal from the primer pocket uniforming and flash hole deburing. I was kind of suprised at how much was removed!
10.4 grains of brass removed from the primer pockets on the left, and 20 grains even removed on the right from deburring the flash holes! Just over 30 grains out of 50 cases!
Re: Hand loading for Long range 1: brass case prep
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Carter Mayfield</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I had the same concerns about cooling the brass, but after further investigation, the metallurgical properties of brass are different from steel and other metals. A fast quench doesn't seem to harden brass. The key reason that you cool it quickly is to prevent the heat from travelling down to the case head, which is a big danger. You don't want that case head to be soft. It gets the brunt of the pressure.
</div></div>
The reason for the quick quenching of the hot brass is to maintain the proper crystalline structure of the brass. Heat reforms the crystals which have become work hardened and quenching "freezes" them at the property you want. If you let them air cool you'll end up with larger crystals than you want and weaken the brass. Overheating will also create unwanted crystal structure and weaken the brass. Overheating also drives off zinc and or tin which have very low melting points and leaves you with less than ideal properties. Don't overheat and do water quench. This is completely different than steel and iron which will harden if quenched quickly.
Hope that clarifies a bit.
Frank
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Carter Mayfield</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I had the same concerns about cooling the brass, but after further investigation, the metallurgical properties of brass are different from steel and other metals. A fast quench doesn't seem to harden brass. The key reason that you cool it quickly is to prevent the heat from travelling down to the case head, which is a big danger. You don't want that case head to be soft. It gets the brunt of the pressure.
</div></div>
The reason for the quick quenching of the hot brass is to maintain the proper crystalline structure of the brass. Heat reforms the crystals which have become work hardened and quenching "freezes" them at the property you want. If you let them air cool you'll end up with larger crystals than you want and weaken the brass. Overheating will also create unwanted crystal structure and weaken the brass. Overheating also drives off zinc and or tin which have very low melting points and leaves you with less than ideal properties. Don't overheat and do water quench. This is completely different than steel and iron which will harden if quenched quickly.
Hope that clarifies a bit.
Frank
Re: Hand loading for Long range 1: brass case prep
TresMon, I see in your signature you're looking for employment as Gunsmith in a cooler climate. I would've pm'd you but your box is full. I have a job opening.
TresMon, I see in your signature you're looking for employment as Gunsmith in a cooler climate. I would've pm'd you but your box is full. I have a job opening.
Re: Hand loading for Long range 1: brass case prep
my question is about annealing i read it is good to anneal after every round. i also read that you don't want the bottom of the case to reach temps above four hundred degrees. i use my thumb and index finger to roll the case neck in the blue inner tip of the propane torch for about 7 to 8 sec. i then set it into my reload block as it becomes to hot to hold when i touch the lower body of the case with my 375 degree heat stick it doesn't melt indicating that the temp has not reached 375 degrees i also measure the shoulder with a 650 degree heat stick and it melts indicating a temp of at least 650 degrees my question is if I'm achieving my desired task and not creating an unsafe softening of the lower part of the case. I've read that heat below 400 degrees for short periods of time do not affect the molecular structure of the brass but to the same if you don't get the neck temp up to 7 or 8 hundred degrees for a few sec. you will not achieve what you set out to do soften the brass at the neck. can anyone give me comment on this. I'm shooting a 338 Lapua and have purchased a hundred rounds of virgin lapua brass
my question is about annealing i read it is good to anneal after every round. i also read that you don't want the bottom of the case to reach temps above four hundred degrees. i use my thumb and index finger to roll the case neck in the blue inner tip of the propane torch for about 7 to 8 sec. i then set it into my reload block as it becomes to hot to hold when i touch the lower body of the case with my 375 degree heat stick it doesn't melt indicating that the temp has not reached 375 degrees i also measure the shoulder with a 650 degree heat stick and it melts indicating a temp of at least 650 degrees my question is if I'm achieving my desired task and not creating an unsafe softening of the lower part of the case. I've read that heat below 400 degrees for short periods of time do not affect the molecular structure of the brass but to the same if you don't get the neck temp up to 7 or 8 hundred degrees for a few sec. you will not achieve what you set out to do soften the brass at the neck. can anyone give me comment on this. I'm shooting a 338 Lapua and have purchased a hundred rounds of virgin lapua brass
Re: Hand loading for Long range 1: brass case prep
Great thread. Here's my contribution.
I use a different technique from those described here to set up my resizing dies using Larry Willis' "Digital Headspace Gauge". To set it up for a .002" bump on the shoulder I use the following procedure:
1. I take a case fire formed in my firearm. The case should be a tight fit so that it's as close as possible to chamber dimensions.
2. Set the case in the Digital Headspace Gauge and zero the gauge (can use Hornady or RCBS gauges). Here's the link:
http://www.larrywillis.com/
3. Insert a .003" shim on the FL or redding body die and screw the die in the press till it's snug on the shellholder. Here's the link for the set of shims:
http://www.sinclairintl.com/.aspx/sid=65249/sku/Skip_s_die_shim_kit____7_8_14_
4. Resize the case with that set up.
5. Place the case in the Digital Headspace Gauge and get a measurement of the amount of shoulder bump.
6. If the bump measures .005" all you need to do is replace the .003" shim with a .006" shim and you get a .002" bump.
The beauty of this set up is that you don't need to touch the die even if you have multiple guns of the same caliber - you just change the shim in accordance with the bump you need. Also you can use another shim if you want more or less bump.
Occasionally, you get a minimal dimension chamber where you can only get less than .001" with the FL or body die. When this occurs, I use a dedicated shell holder which I sand on a flat surface to take off .001" or so.
As regards case triage I believe that weighting cases on the assumption that there is a constant correlation between case weight and internal volume is a complete waste of time that is based on an erroneous assumption. Others factors such as dimension of base and extractor groove are significant confounding variables.
With new brass, I expand necks to uniform size, turn them for uniform thickness, trim to uniform length, chamfer, clean primer pockets and deburr primer holes. After fireforming, I routinely measure internal volume of 30 cases in order to adjust Quickload parameters to customize it my firearm. I have done hundreds of these measurements and I have found that even with the best of brass (Lapua), the correlation between case weight and internal volume is extremely weak and typically less than 50% valid.
To illustrate the point here's a sample of 30 fireformed Remington cases in my 338 Edge. All cases have been prepped as described above. The empty and water-filled cases were weighted on an Acculab VIC 303 that is accurate within .001 gram or .02 grain.
#.....Case weight (grs)……Var. %……..Water weight (grs)….Var. %
1…….272.68……………………-1.19%.............116.66…………….-0.04%
2…….276.74……………………+0.28%............117.00…………….+0 .25%
3…….272.68……………………-1.19%.............117.10…………….+0.34%
4…….267.24……………………-3.16%.............117.48…………….+0.66%
5…….278.84……………………+1.04%............116.18…………….-0.45%
6…….276.24……………………+0.10%............116.62…………….-0.07%
7…….278.14……………………+0.79%............116.12…………….-0.50%
8…….276.22……………………+0.09%............116.56…………….-0.13%
9…….280.58……………………+1.67%............116.24…………….-0.40%
10…..276.48……………………+0.19%............116.40…………….-0.26%
11…..276.58……………………+0.22%............116.50…………….-0.18%
12…..276.76……………………+0.29%............116.64…………….-0.06%
13…..279.64……………………+1.33%............116.64…………….-0.06%
14…..278.16……………………+0.80%............116.80……………+0 .08%
15…..277.18……………………+0.44%............116.78……………+0 .06%
16…..277.60……………………+0.59%............116.64…………….-0.06%
17…..275.82……………………-0.05%.............116.82……………+0.10%
18…..271.74……………………-1.53%.............117.20……………+0.42%
19…..276.40……………………+0.16%............116.72……………+0 .01%
20…..271.68……………………-1.55%.............116.86……………+0.13%
21…..275.62……………………-0.12%.............116.94……………+0.20%
22…..276.32……………………+0.13%............117.22……………+0 .44%
23…..276.00……………………+0.01%............116.96…………... .+0.22%
24…..278.02……………………+0.75%............116.74……………+0 .03%
25…..273.90……………………-0.75%.............116.54…………….-0.14%
26…..278.00…………………..+0.74%............116.52…………….-0.16%
27…..275.60……………………-0.13%.............116.10…………….-0.52%
28…..276.62……………………+0.24%............116.74……………+0 .03%
29…..275.44……………………-0.19%.............116.74……………+0.03%
30…..275.94……………………-0.01%.............116.72……………+0.01%
Ave..275.96………………………..…………………....116.71
Using the 0.5% variation standard normally advocated (+ or - 0.25% from average), one would have selected 13 of the 30 weighted cases. Selecting by internal volume would have resulted in 20 retained cases. Moreover, 3 of the cases selected by weight would have been rejected by volume (#10, 22 and 27). Consequently, selecting by weight would have resulted in the identification of 10 of the 20 cases that had relatively uniform internal volume.
If one looks at the validity of the assumption of case weight as an indicator of internal volume within a 0.5% variation, it would appear that the assumption is dubious at best. For example, you would expect case #1 which weights 1.19% less than the average of 30 cases to have approximately 1.2% greater internal volume than the average volume for the same cases. Instead, that case is almost perfectly on the mark for case volume (-0.04%). Indeed the correlation is valid only for 11 of 30 cases (#6, 8, 10-12, 17, 19, 21, 23, 29 and 30) or 36.7%.
Another interesting observation from the table above, is that the weight variation among cases is quite large (-3.16% to + 1.67% = 4.83%), whereas the internal volume is relatively constant (+0.66% to -0.52% = 1.18%).
I and 2 of my shooting buddies have run this same experiment independently with hundreds of cases, using 5 different brands of brass (WW, RP nickel, RP, Hor., Lapua and FC) and 6 calibers (223 Rem, 6.5x284, 308 Win. 300 WM, 338 WM,338 Edge) and have come to the same conclusion. That is, if you wish to sort brass for consistency, do it by measuring internal volume.
Finally I agree that sorting cases by measuring neck thickness is an important step in achieving optimal accuracy. I routinely sort my cases with with a digital thickness gauge and only retain those within .001" tolerance.
I apologize for the long post.
Great thread. Here's my contribution.
I use a different technique from those described here to set up my resizing dies using Larry Willis' "Digital Headspace Gauge". To set it up for a .002" bump on the shoulder I use the following procedure:
1. I take a case fire formed in my firearm. The case should be a tight fit so that it's as close as possible to chamber dimensions.
2. Set the case in the Digital Headspace Gauge and zero the gauge (can use Hornady or RCBS gauges). Here's the link:
http://www.larrywillis.com/
3. Insert a .003" shim on the FL or redding body die and screw the die in the press till it's snug on the shellholder. Here's the link for the set of shims:
http://www.sinclairintl.com/.aspx/sid=65249/sku/Skip_s_die_shim_kit____7_8_14_
4. Resize the case with that set up.
5. Place the case in the Digital Headspace Gauge and get a measurement of the amount of shoulder bump.
6. If the bump measures .005" all you need to do is replace the .003" shim with a .006" shim and you get a .002" bump.
The beauty of this set up is that you don't need to touch the die even if you have multiple guns of the same caliber - you just change the shim in accordance with the bump you need. Also you can use another shim if you want more or less bump.
Occasionally, you get a minimal dimension chamber where you can only get less than .001" with the FL or body die. When this occurs, I use a dedicated shell holder which I sand on a flat surface to take off .001" or so.
As regards case triage I believe that weighting cases on the assumption that there is a constant correlation between case weight and internal volume is a complete waste of time that is based on an erroneous assumption. Others factors such as dimension of base and extractor groove are significant confounding variables.
With new brass, I expand necks to uniform size, turn them for uniform thickness, trim to uniform length, chamfer, clean primer pockets and deburr primer holes. After fireforming, I routinely measure internal volume of 30 cases in order to adjust Quickload parameters to customize it my firearm. I have done hundreds of these measurements and I have found that even with the best of brass (Lapua), the correlation between case weight and internal volume is extremely weak and typically less than 50% valid.
To illustrate the point here's a sample of 30 fireformed Remington cases in my 338 Edge. All cases have been prepped as described above. The empty and water-filled cases were weighted on an Acculab VIC 303 that is accurate within .001 gram or .02 grain.
#.....Case weight (grs)……Var. %……..Water weight (grs)….Var. %
1…….272.68……………………-1.19%.............116.66…………….-0.04%
2…….276.74……………………+0.28%............117.00…………….+0 .25%
3…….272.68……………………-1.19%.............117.10…………….+0.34%
4…….267.24……………………-3.16%.............117.48…………….+0.66%
5…….278.84……………………+1.04%............116.18…………….-0.45%
6…….276.24……………………+0.10%............116.62…………….-0.07%
7…….278.14……………………+0.79%............116.12…………….-0.50%
8…….276.22……………………+0.09%............116.56…………….-0.13%
9…….280.58……………………+1.67%............116.24…………….-0.40%
10…..276.48……………………+0.19%............116.40…………….-0.26%
11…..276.58……………………+0.22%............116.50…………….-0.18%
12…..276.76……………………+0.29%............116.64…………….-0.06%
13…..279.64……………………+1.33%............116.64…………….-0.06%
14…..278.16……………………+0.80%............116.80……………+0 .08%
15…..277.18……………………+0.44%............116.78……………+0 .06%
16…..277.60……………………+0.59%............116.64…………….-0.06%
17…..275.82……………………-0.05%.............116.82……………+0.10%
18…..271.74……………………-1.53%.............117.20……………+0.42%
19…..276.40……………………+0.16%............116.72……………+0 .01%
20…..271.68……………………-1.55%.............116.86……………+0.13%
21…..275.62……………………-0.12%.............116.94……………+0.20%
22…..276.32……………………+0.13%............117.22……………+0 .44%
23…..276.00……………………+0.01%............116.96…………... .+0.22%
24…..278.02……………………+0.75%............116.74……………+0 .03%
25…..273.90……………………-0.75%.............116.54…………….-0.14%
26…..278.00…………………..+0.74%............116.52…………….-0.16%
27…..275.60……………………-0.13%.............116.10…………….-0.52%
28…..276.62……………………+0.24%............116.74……………+0 .03%
29…..275.44……………………-0.19%.............116.74……………+0.03%
30…..275.94……………………-0.01%.............116.72……………+0.01%
Ave..275.96………………………..…………………....116.71
Using the 0.5% variation standard normally advocated (+ or - 0.25% from average), one would have selected 13 of the 30 weighted cases. Selecting by internal volume would have resulted in 20 retained cases. Moreover, 3 of the cases selected by weight would have been rejected by volume (#10, 22 and 27). Consequently, selecting by weight would have resulted in the identification of 10 of the 20 cases that had relatively uniform internal volume.
If one looks at the validity of the assumption of case weight as an indicator of internal volume within a 0.5% variation, it would appear that the assumption is dubious at best. For example, you would expect case #1 which weights 1.19% less than the average of 30 cases to have approximately 1.2% greater internal volume than the average volume for the same cases. Instead, that case is almost perfectly on the mark for case volume (-0.04%). Indeed the correlation is valid only for 11 of 30 cases (#6, 8, 10-12, 17, 19, 21, 23, 29 and 30) or 36.7%.
Another interesting observation from the table above, is that the weight variation among cases is quite large (-3.16% to + 1.67% = 4.83%), whereas the internal volume is relatively constant (+0.66% to -0.52% = 1.18%).
I and 2 of my shooting buddies have run this same experiment independently with hundreds of cases, using 5 different brands of brass (WW, RP nickel, RP, Hor., Lapua and FC) and 6 calibers (223 Rem, 6.5x284, 308 Win. 300 WM, 338 WM,338 Edge) and have come to the same conclusion. That is, if you wish to sort brass for consistency, do it by measuring internal volume.
Finally I agree that sorting cases by measuring neck thickness is an important step in achieving optimal accuracy. I routinely sort my cases with with a digital thickness gauge and only retain those within .001" tolerance.
I apologize for the long post.
Re: Hand loading for Long range 1: brass case prep
Tres,
My question is: Am I getting the correct measurement on chamber length? I trimmed a case .05" short. I turned a piece of brass on the lathe to .306", without a shoulder, and .75" long. I placed the slug into the case and chambered it into the rifle. Rifle is a Savage 10
FLCP-K .308 Win. I eased the case into the chamber by hand and closed the bolt very gently. I did this seven times and averaged my measurements to aquire a chamber length of 2.177"
Do I need to turn another piece of brass WITH a shoulder that is .308" or larger and measure again? Or does it work the same without the shoulder on the slug?
Tres,
My question is: Am I getting the correct measurement on chamber length? I trimmed a case .05" short. I turned a piece of brass on the lathe to .306", without a shoulder, and .75" long. I placed the slug into the case and chambered it into the rifle. Rifle is a Savage 10
FLCP-K .308 Win. I eased the case into the chamber by hand and closed the bolt very gently. I did this seven times and averaged my measurements to aquire a chamber length of 2.177"
Do I need to turn another piece of brass WITH a shoulder that is .308" or larger and measure again? Or does it work the same without the shoulder on the slug?
Re: Hand loading for Long range 1: brass case prep
I've had a chance to think about this and remember the picture of the piece you turned. I've answered my own question: Of course it needs a shoulder, otherwize it is going into the chamber which is what we don't want!
So in the end, nevermind I asked.
I've had a chance to think about this and remember the picture of the piece you turned. I've answered my own question: Of course it needs a shoulder, otherwize it is going into the chamber which is what we don't want!
So in the end, nevermind I asked.
Re: Hand loading for Long range 1: brass case prep
I am new to this site, have been reloading for 35 years but only pistol/carbine. Wanting to get involved in Long range shooting, I read with great interest the first part of case prep and it was recommended to purchase a few things, some of which I already have.
I have a question that hopefully someone help me.
To obtain the headspace measurement it states that "You'll also need the insert specific to your cartridge:" http://www.sinclairintl.com/product/11264/Case-Gauges-Headspace-Tools
It seems that Sinclair has changed the item number on this and no mjatter what I put in the search function it comes up not found.
I am in the process of ordering from Sinclair and have found theSinclair Comparator/Bump Gage as well as the Sinclair bump gauge insert family -http://www.sinclairintl.com/.aspx/sid=74245/pid=35265/sku/Sinclair_Bump_Gage_Insert__308_Family.
Will this "family" give me what I need to do this job ?
I am shooting the Win .308.
Thanks for any and all help.
I am new to this site, have been reloading for 35 years but only pistol/carbine. Wanting to get involved in Long range shooting, I read with great interest the first part of case prep and it was recommended to purchase a few things, some of which I already have.
I have a question that hopefully someone help me.
To obtain the headspace measurement it states that "You'll also need the insert specific to your cartridge:" http://www.sinclairintl.com/product/11264/Case-Gauges-Headspace-Tools
It seems that Sinclair has changed the item number on this and no mjatter what I put in the search function it comes up not found.
I am in the process of ordering from Sinclair and have found theSinclair Comparator/Bump Gage as well as the Sinclair bump gauge insert family -http://www.sinclairintl.com/.aspx/sid=74245/pid=35265/sku/Sinclair_Bump_Gage_Insert__308_Family.
Will this "family" give me what I need to do this job ?
I am shooting the Win .308.
Thanks for any and all help.
Re: Hand loading for Long range 1: brass case prep
Yes that is the correct product from what I can tell. You need the Bump Gage Model 20A for the .308 family and that is what your link brings up. Don't pay any attention to the pics on that page as they are just showing different bump gauges, none of those are the 20A but that is the correct part.
Yes that is the correct product from what I can tell. You need the Bump Gage Model 20A for the .308 family and that is what your link brings up. Don't pay any attention to the pics on that page as they are just showing different bump gauges, none of those are the 20A but that is the correct part.
Re: Hand loading for Long range 1: brass case prep
Thanks for the efforts Tres. Much appreciated. I have my eye on Ebay for a cleaner as I type.
My question is how do you determine correct neck tension if your using a bushing die for minimum velocity spread? I know what Redding says about choosing a bushing, but I've found different brass seems to have different elastic properties. Lapua for instance seems to grip like a vice with just a - .002 or .003 bushing. Winchester not so. Is it better to select a bushing by the amount it decreases the neck diameter below that of a loaded round as opposed to just measuring a loaded round and deducting a nominal amount?
I've also read 2 schools of thought on neck tension regarding lower spreads - either use very little, or use a lot. Any thoughts on this area would be much appreciated as I'm struggling to get my ES below 20fps-40fps.
Cheers
Jon
Thanks for the efforts Tres. Much appreciated. I have my eye on Ebay for a cleaner as I type.
My question is how do you determine correct neck tension if your using a bushing die for minimum velocity spread? I know what Redding says about choosing a bushing, but I've found different brass seems to have different elastic properties. Lapua for instance seems to grip like a vice with just a - .002 or .003 bushing. Winchester not so. Is it better to select a bushing by the amount it decreases the neck diameter below that of a loaded round as opposed to just measuring a loaded round and deducting a nominal amount?
I've also read 2 schools of thought on neck tension regarding lower spreads - either use very little, or use a lot. Any thoughts on this area would be much appreciated as I'm struggling to get my ES below 20fps-40fps.
Cheers
Jon
Re: Hand loading for Long range 1: brass case prep
I'm new to this web-site, but have been competing at 1000yrds for 9 years. One thing I'd like to add, that was mentioned briefly, is the Lee collet dies. My experience is brass "remembers" the direction it was re-sized and forever (until it is fired) applies tension in the opposite direction. With traditional ball expanders the neck maintains tension against the seated bullet. The Lee collet dies squeezes the necks in from the outside. Thus the neck is forever opening up! The only time I used them, all my molly coated bullets had dropped in their cases by the time I reached the match in my jeep. Needless to say, I was less than happy.
I'm new to this web-site, but have been competing at 1000yrds for 9 years. One thing I'd like to add, that was mentioned briefly, is the Lee collet dies. My experience is brass "remembers" the direction it was re-sized and forever (until it is fired) applies tension in the opposite direction. With traditional ball expanders the neck maintains tension against the seated bullet. The Lee collet dies squeezes the necks in from the outside. Thus the neck is forever opening up! The only time I used them, all my molly coated bullets had dropped in their cases by the time I reached the match in my jeep. Needless to say, I was less than happy.
Re: Hand loading for Long range 1: brass case prep
What kind of tension were you using? I've been using a Lee collet die on my 300WM for quite some time now and not only do my bullets NOT fall out, they're plenty tough to pull with a collet puller and I'm running .002" tension.
John
What kind of tension were you using? I've been using a Lee collet die on my 300WM for quite some time now and not only do my bullets NOT fall out, they're plenty tough to pull with a collet puller and I'm running .002" tension.
John
Re: Hand loading for Long range 1: brass case prep
This was 9 years ago so I don't remember the detailed specifics... but I did turn the mandrel to a smaller diameter on my drill press and this is also a 300WM. Granted, these were Molly coated ( lubricated ) and they were driven to the range in a jeep ( VERY BUMPY ). But since then I've decided I prefer to have the neck "remembering" in the correct direction.
This was 9 years ago so I don't remember the detailed specifics... but I did turn the mandrel to a smaller diameter on my drill press and this is also a 300WM. Granted, these were Molly coated ( lubricated ) and they were driven to the range in a jeep ( VERY BUMPY ). But since then I've decided I prefer to have the neck "remembering" in the correct direction.
Re: Hand loading for Long range 1: brass case prep
I appreciate all the work that has gone into this tutorial, my loading manuals dont tell you how to set up a FL die just to bump so this has been very enlightening. Sounds like I need the tool. Maybe I am missing something because I tried the soot method and promptly got a stuck case and after extraction the neck/shoulder looked about right... Im guessing operator error. I pushed it in dry, it seems like lube would interfere with an accurate reading on the soot. Has anyone else encountered a similar problem or even better maybe a solution?
I appreciate all the work that has gone into this tutorial, my loading manuals dont tell you how to set up a FL die just to bump so this has been very enlightening. Sounds like I need the tool. Maybe I am missing something because I tried the soot method and promptly got a stuck case and after extraction the neck/shoulder looked about right... Im guessing operator error. I pushed it in dry, it seems like lube would interfere with an accurate reading on the soot. Has anyone else encountered a similar problem or even better maybe a solution?
Re: Hand loading for Long range 1: brass case prep
Now I am a noob in the presence of giants here but I have been throwing my hat in at accurate reloading for a couple years so far, but still realize theres much to be done before I come close to making a "perfect round". I neck size and find it hard to close the bolt so I HAVE to FL resize every other time the case is sized. Also when it comes to trimming how is it possible to never trim when sizing due to the metal cannot be re formed 100 percent? What i am trying to say is when is it necessary to trim the case for the most accurate loads?
Now I am a noob in the presence of giants here but I have been throwing my hat in at accurate reloading for a couple years so far, but still realize theres much to be done before I come close to making a "perfect round". I neck size and find it hard to close the bolt so I HAVE to FL resize every other time the case is sized. Also when it comes to trimming how is it possible to never trim when sizing due to the metal cannot be re formed 100 percent? What i am trying to say is when is it necessary to trim the case for the most accurate loads?
Re: Hand loading for Long range 1: brass case prep
One small detail I didn't notice, but may be important is to trim your necks before deburring the flash hole. Deburring tools index off the mouth and if you have varying case/neck length, it will affect how deep and how much metal is taken off the web around the flash hole.
One small detail I didn't notice, but may be important is to trim your necks before deburring the flash hole. Deburring tools index off the mouth and if you have varying case/neck length, it will affect how deep and how much metal is taken off the web around the flash hole.
Re: Hand loading for Long range 1: brass case prep
OK its gotta be said
Not directed @ OP
but the numerous threads on weighing brass, bullets etc
Grab some brass stuff in sum powder top with bullet of choice and play with OAL a lil = MOA or better or good enuff for tak
Holy hell there must a metric shit ton of threads here on cleaning brass, WTF
Stop buying into all the gizmo and $hit and spend more time pulling trigger
Jeez you guys spend more time massaging brass than i do for my full blown F open rig
KISS
good info but again weighing bullets, measuring bearing surface
etc
Guys this is not bench rest and most of you...here's that wake up reality ck
Dont have the skill set/shooting ability to see any benefit from this, time better spent pulling trigger
OK its gotta be said
Not directed @ OP
but the numerous threads on weighing brass, bullets etc
Grab some brass stuff in sum powder top with bullet of choice and play with OAL a lil = MOA or better or good enuff for tak
Holy hell there must a metric shit ton of threads here on cleaning brass, WTF
Stop buying into all the gizmo and $hit and spend more time pulling trigger
Jeez you guys spend more time massaging brass than i do for my full blown F open rig
KISS
good info but again weighing bullets, measuring bearing surface
etc
Guys this is not bench rest and most of you...here's that wake up reality ck
Dont have the skill set/shooting ability to see any benefit from this, time better spent pulling trigger
Re: Hand loading for Long range 1: brass case prep
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TresMon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Muffo,
Perhaps I did not go into detail enough about cartridge brass. Yes, heating and cooling cycles hardens a whole lot of steels. But the same SOFTENS brass.
And your referring to weighing brass & water: you misunderstood Carter's comments. You would fill a case full of water, then pour the water out of the case into a container onto the powder scales to weigh the water (capacity of that case.) This way you get a capacity comparison case to case... </div></div>
It is 50 50 which one is best but I don't drop brass into water . I let it cool naturally .
I feel it gives a good partial anneal . This is just a theory but I feel it could result in a more even anneal because you never quench exactly at the same time and in the same way into the water. I know people that use both methods and they seem to work ok.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TresMon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Muffo,
Perhaps I did not go into detail enough about cartridge brass. Yes, heating and cooling cycles hardens a whole lot of steels. But the same SOFTENS brass.
And your referring to weighing brass & water: you misunderstood Carter's comments. You would fill a case full of water, then pour the water out of the case into a container onto the powder scales to weigh the water (capacity of that case.) This way you get a capacity comparison case to case... </div></div>
It is 50 50 which one is best but I don't drop brass into water . I let it cool naturally .
I feel it gives a good partial anneal . This is just a theory but I feel it could result in a more even anneal because you never quench exactly at the same time and in the same way into the water. I know people that use both methods and they seem to work ok.
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