Hand Loading Method Improvements with UC and Annea

M

M27David

Private
Minuteman
Jun 11, 2002
21
0
TN
home.comcast.net
#1
I continue to fine tune my hand loading method. Please note, I concede I do a lot more than what is necessary for the tactical shooter. I really consider my hand loading and load development a separate endeavor that is apart from my tactical shooting interests, kinda like an R&D shop feeding ideas to product and manufacturing development. Anyway, here's the latest innovations that include ultrasonic cleaning and annealing.

My sequence of operations;

1. Tumble clean, walnut media (from PetCo) and Flitz. See image here.

2. Anneal cases - yep that's right, I've started annealing cases...
This is a BC1000 by, Ken Light Mfg.



3. Lube cases, plastic bag and Dillon case spray (gotta be the quickest way to lube brass)
See image #1 here.
See image #2 here.

4. Size the case on the first tool head.
a. Station #1 Redding S-Die with a .339" bushing and decapping rod installed to eliminate the separate decapping step
b. Station #2 Redding Body Die
c. Station #3 Redding Competition Die with a .336" bushing.
d. Station #4 Sinclair Mandrel Die (swapping the Mandrel Die and Type M Die)


5. Ultrasonic clean the lube off the cases and clean the case interior. I'm using IOSSO for about 4 minutes in the UC and then a hot water rinse.

a. I found a neat device, used by manicurists to clean their tools, to hold the brass.


b. The best feature I discovered is the strainer part holds the brass above the bottom of the jar. This avoids the brass from sitting in the crude that collects there.


c. I had ordered a Kimex beaker, but the strainer on this device allows me to remove the brass without having to dump the contents of the beaker.


6. Uniform the primer pocket, with a Sinclair tool chucked in the drillpress.
7. Trim case length and chamfer ID, OD with Giraud
Set the Giraud and drill press up together so there will just one pick and place of the case. Pick-up a handful of cases from bin, put one into the drillpress then move it over to the Giraud. Place case into bin on right.




8. Prime, charge, and seat with the second Dillon tool head
a. Station #1 Lyman Type M Die
b. Station #2 Charge using the Quick Measure.
using the <span style="font-weight: bold">Quick Measure.</span> Biggest improvement here!
c. Station #3 Seat Redding Competition Die
d. Station #4 Redding Taper Die, to close the slight flare from the M-Die.

See here for an .AVI Movie of QM in action

9. Weigh loaded round as a quality/safety check.
See image here.

10. Place round in box
 
#4
Re: Hand Loading Method Improvements with UC and Annealing

Thanks guys. One thing I am still working on is where in the sequence of operations to do the annealing. I processed 50 pcs with the annealing done last after all the brass prep operations, i.e. just before the 2nd toolhead is used for the charge and seating steps. I'll compare loads prepared this way with those prepared as described above. I am not expecting an improvement, with the additions of the annealing and UC steps, in the stats or on paper as I am with extending the life of the brass, but I thought it would worth investigating some. More later...

LTR out
 
#5
Re: Hand Loading Method Improvements with UC and Annealing

David -- how bout a link for the manicurist brass holding gizmo
laugh.gif


JB
 
#6
Re: Hand Loading Method Improvements with UC and Annealing

JB, I'd be glad to share a link if I had one. I picked the gizmo up at a beauty supply shop that happen to be next door to my barber. I had noticed her Barbersol container, the thing they keep their combs in to sterilize them, well maybe it just kills cooties. Anyway, I explained my interest in something like that and was told there was a similar container used by manicurists to soak their tools and that's the description I used when went to pick the thing up.
smile.gif


Wait, never mind. I looked at the picture more closely and read the name, Marvy and gemicide on it. Google showed the item for sale on eBay.
Looks like it is called MARVY MANICURIST DISINFECTAINT JAR # 6 GERMICIDE

The #6 implies there may be other sizes, perhaps a little large would be bit better. Uh, here is a better priced selection;

http://cameobeauty.com/Merchant2/merchan...fectant+Systems
 
#8
Re: Hand Loading Method Improvements with UC and Annealing

Not ebay again. First the run on UC's and now a run on these.

Wife is one of those hair dressers, she calls herself a cosmotoligst. Will check with her and see whats out there.
 
#9
Re: Hand Loading Method Improvements with UC and Annealing

LTR,
I would be interested to hear your thoughts on annealing:

1) Was it difficult to set up and determine proper time and temps?
2) How much further will this extend you case life?
3) Have you tried other annealing methods such as the tourch with a pan-of-water etc.?
4) Sounds like your only annealing to extend case life? you don't expect any accuaracy gains?

Please keep us informed of your experiment with and w/o annealing. I'm very interested in you results, especially after reading info on many of the F-class winners annealing their cases.

As always excellent post.
 
#10
Re: Hand Loading Method Improvements with UC and Annealing

ptaylor, your q's in italics...

<span style="font-style: italic">1) Was it difficult to set up and determine proper time and temps?</span>

No, but I did not trust my ability to evaluate proper temperatures by eyeball alone. So, I invested in a more quantitative method and used a temperature sensitive paint called Tempilaq;



<span style="font-style: italic">2) How much further will this extend you case life?</span>

I don't know. Lapua's site states 10x with no mention of annealing. I've been told everything from indefinitively to 40x. My tact will be to monitor for things like the dreaded dounut, case head separation, split necks, etc.

<span style="font-style: italic">3) Have you tried other annealing methods such as the tourch with a pan-of-water etc.?</span>

Yes. I tried using the electric drill and Lee case trimmer holder to rotate cases in a torch flame. Too slow.

<span style="font-style: italic">4) Sounds like your only annealing to extend case life? you don't expect any accuaracy gains?</span>

Maybe, but the reality is my equipment is already shooting better than I am. At least until recently when my bbl went away. I am fixing that problem, but it ain't cheap. :rolleyes:
 
#12
Re: Hand Loading Method Improvements with UC and Annealing

David, I got three bottles of the Templiq or what ever it is called. Got 650. 750, and 800. I am finding that once it is painted on the neck of a case it either doesn't change at all on the machine, or it seems to burn and turn a chared looking gray. When you use it do you see an actual spot that it liquifies noticeably? Any help will be appreciated. Thanks Bob
 
#16
Re: Hand Loading Method Improvements with UC and Annealing

Arc, they work every bit as well as the vidio,mechanically. I am trying to get the temp. more exact then I feel I might be now. The operation of the machine is flawless, does exactly what it is supposed to do. I am trying to anneal some cases that I make up out of 300 RUM brass and they take a real long time to do, and do not want to screw any of them up. The shoulder is pushed back half way down the case and they really need to be annealed.
 
#17
Re: Hand Loading Method Improvements with UC and Annealing

BB said, "<span style="font-style: italic">When you use it do you see an actual spot that it liquifies noticeably?</span>"

BB, sorry for the delay in getting back with you. Yes. See Here. What you want to do is bracket the area being annealed by the appropriate temp that you're trying to achieve. Because, if the flame actually touches the Templiaq you wind up measuring the temp of the flame which is a lot hotter than the 950 F max. Look at the last photo I posted above. You'll see how the 750F line of paint melted further down than the 850 F on the left case. The 488 F paint on the rt case goes even farther down on the case which tells me the case head temp is well away from the max temp that it is suppose to avoid, 450 F IIRC. That was my big concern, i.e. not overheating the case head.

For the 950 F max on the neck I played with painting the inside of the case mouth which avoids the flame from cooking the Tempilag - but if you watch for the color change that'll be adequate.

Does this help?
 
#22
Re: Hand Loading Method Improvements with UC and Annealing

David,

I'd rank this as one of the best internet posts of the past few years. There are a half-dozen really important things you've covered, including proper use of Tempilaq and the QuickMeasure product.

I read the review on your page and watched the video. I see the case pushes up from the bottom, raising a tube that contacts the measure feed--but did you have to fabricate anything between the die-holder and the bottom of the measure?

It looks like pretty much everything is included in the $135.00 Adaptor from Quick-Measure. Is that right? Link: http://www.quick-measure.com/progadapter.htm

PAdapter2.jpg
 
#25
Re: Hand Loading Method Improvements with UC and Annealing

Instead of IOSSO for ultrasonic case cleaning, an article in 6mmBR.com entitled "Ultrasonic Case Cleaning" by Jason Baney sets out their testing with various solutions. A recent update in the Nov. 30 2006 Blog shows a solutiion known as "Citranox" to be superior in cleaning and costs as well as time spent (4 min. on 2x brass, more on 6x brass). I recently purchased 2 gallons of the solution, which when mixed with distilled water at a 100:1 ratio makes for inexpensive solution. I found the results outside and inside the brass to be excellent, with only a cold water rinse after cleaning in the ultrasonic solution. A quick dry with compressed air or set outside in the sun and your ready to load. It works well for me.

Citranox can be purchased from its manufacturer Alconox, goggle it for discounted prices from tatoo parlor supply companies, they use it to clean their needles and equipment.
 
#26
Re: Hand Loading Method Improvements with UC and Annealing

LTRlDavd and those interested in testing the temperature of the brass as it is annealed, although the cost might be prohibitive, the use of a digital pyrometer will give very accurate results, down to the tenths of a degress. Also, the use of an infra red sensor will also provide the same information without having to touch each piece of brass as is necessary with the pyrometer. These devices are successfully used in engine and tire development.
 
#27
Re: Hand Loading Method Improvements with UC and Annealing

Yo said, "...did you have to fabricate anything between the die-holder and the bottom of the measure?"

Negative that sir. For the price paid one had better not have to fabricate anything.
smile.gif
Still, if I were to attempt an enhancement of the setup, it would be to isolate the hopper from the 550. In my implementation the 2x2 steel angles that I use as shelf brackets would make a perfect base to mount the QM. It's on my list...

re: product review
Know this. Charging by volume vs by weight is pretty much an "apples v. oranges" thing. My on paper results which I include in the review I did, indicated there was no practical difference between weighed and volume charged ammo, for this shooter, in a side-by-side comparison at a 2x 1k F-class shoot. So, for LR tactical shooting comps and training I feel I am meeting my requirement to produce a 100-1k yd sub-moa round off a 550 in full a progressive mode. Oh yeah, I almost forgot, last week I ran 32 rds over my IR equipped CED chrono and generated a 14 SD. 168 FGMM & Lapua 170 HPS have ran SD's of 12 and 18 respectively out of the same stick. So, statistically it appears my self-rolled ammo is on par with the factory match grade stuff.
Still, if I could afford a Promethues I would have one.
smile.gif


bfd, thx for the tip on the Citranox I'll check that out when I run out of IOSSO. Digital pyro and infrared sensor, check.
 
#28
Re: Hand Loading Method Improvements with UC and Annealing

For $99 it may be worthwhile since the min order online for the Tempilaq is $50. Something to consider. Thx bfd

Click on pic for details...


Amber Backlit LCD Display
Laser Sighting
Themerature range from -76 to 932 degrees Farenheit
Adjustable Emissivity
Automatic Data Hold
 
#29
Re: Hand Loading Method Improvements with UC and Annealing

Good day,

Check out your local welding supply store for Tempilaq. Both of my local stores carry it, or order whatever temperature you wish from their distributor.

DocB
 
#30
Re: Hand Loading Method Improvements with UC and Annealing

David,

If it is worth doing, it is worth doing well.

Are you the one that is responsible for that quote? I AM THINKING SO.

Good job, keep it up, and stay safe.

Sean
 
#32
Re: Hand Loading Method Improvements with UC and Annealing

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Charging by volume vs by weight is pretty much an "apples v. oranges" thing. My on paper results which I include in the review I did, indicated there was no practical difference between weighed and volume charged ammo, for this shooter, in a side-by-side comparison at a 2x 1k F-class shoot. </div></div>David,

Did you load both batches under the same conditions, or at different times; i.e. cool dry day, versus hot and humid? Wondering what effect humidity has. I generally load by volume, but have checked the same charges on different days and gotten different weights.

Just something else to make us load more test ammo.
cool.gif
 
#34
Re: Hand Loading Method Improvements with UC and Annealing

David,
You are costing me money. The other day you mentioned useing the Marvy sanitizing beaker in your ultra sonic cleaner. I went out and picked one up and it really works great. Now the infrared thermometer. I've got to get one of these, as I'm not comfortable relying on the Templaq. I would prefer to read a definate number. I really enjoy reading your posts.
myerfire
 
#36
Re: Hand Loading Method Improvements with UC and Annealing

Cool. Good find myerfire. Please do a report on how well it works, if you get one. My thought would be to try and place the beam where it would read on the inside of the case neck, to keep it out of the flame.
 
#38
Re: Hand Loading Method Improvements with UC and Annealing

It would be interesting to do something quantifiable with the annealing. Something like taking cases that have been fired 10+ times with no annealing. Then take the cases and split them into two groups. Anneal one of the groups and leave the others the same. Resize the cases and measure runout and spring back to see what the difference between the two groups is. I tried this with some lapua cases I had that were fired 10 times and couldn’t tell a difference between the two groups but my annealing process may not have been perfect. Runout was the same and the annealed cases only had .0005 less spring back.
 
#40
Re: Hand Loading Method Improvements with UC and A

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">4. Size the case on the first tool head.
a. Station #1 Redding S-Die with a .339" bushing and decapping rod installed to eliminate the separate decapping step
b. Station #2 Redding Competition Die with a .336" bushing.
c. Station #3 Redding Body Die
d. Station #4 Sinclair Mandrel Die (swapping the Mandrel Die and Type M Die)</div></div>


Am I wrong that the above pic shows the body die in station two and the comp die in station 3?

I'm duplicating your setup minus the QM, annealing, and Giraud (the expensive stuff) right now. I hope to have all the fine tuning done by this week & want to be sure I'm clear on the layout.

Thanks for sharing this info.
 
#41
Re: Hand Loading Method Improvements with UC and A

David, Do you find that annealing yeilds more consistent neck tension? I started to do a test were I would separate brass by the number of firings into differant boxes. I could really feel a difference between casees fired once or twice and cases fired eight to ten times. The cases fired multiple times were the most inconsistent in neck tension. Do you think annealing would correct these inconsistencies?

Colin
 
#42
Re: Hand Loading Method Improvements with UC and A

Greentimber said, "<span style="font-style: italic">Am I wrong that the above pic shows the body die in station two and the comp die in station 3?</span>"

No, you're not wrong. I corrected the text to sync with the pic. Thanks for pointing that out. Good luck with your setup.

Rufus, yes no doubt annealing cases that had been fired that many times would help. Try annealing a few by hand and see for yourself.

Two things come to my mind when I think about cases that have been fired that many times - 1. imminent case head separation and 2. the cost-value proposition of buying new vs useing 10x fire cases.
 
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