Handgun Marksmanship

[Helidriver]

I need some help here guys. I don't shoot handgun very much but I do carry daily. Over the holiday weekend I decided to drag out all the handguns and go do some shooting. To my surprise I was shooting every handgun I own low and left. Even with both of my 1911s. I qualified expert with a 1911 every time in the Corps and my last qual was expert with an M9. WTF!!! I thought I was a well rounded handgun shooter until last weekend.

I dug through my training materials and couldn't find the handgun stuff. Aiming center mass at 10yds I'm grouping around the left edge of the target just above the bottom rib.

I've decided no rifle shooting until I fix this problem. I don't defend my family and home with a long gun. I need to get this resolved. I'm going to do some snapping in and other dry fire drills I know of every night this week.

Does anyone have any suggestions or advice?

 

[kraigWY]

Re: Handgun Marksmanship

Get a CT Laser sight put one of your pistols and dry fire the crap out of it.

Several books out there, some good, some not so good.

I'd recommend above all others the USAMU Service Pistol Guide. $6.95 from the CMP Book Store;

http://estore.thecmp.org/store/catalog/c...note5=&max=

Yeah I know, its geared for Bullseye but what itis,is pure marksmanship fundamentals, something everyone needs regardless of what type of pistol shooting one does.

 

[EXTREMEPREJUDICE]

Re: Handgun Marksmanship

Well, shots on target low and left from POA for a right handed shooter is classic flinching, anticipating recoil, jerking the trigger, etc. It's all the same deal and is your bodys natural reaction to loud noises/explosions. If you double plug your hearing protection it should help for live fire drills but of course dry firing and concentating on trigger manipulation and follow through is the general solution. It's very common and will be resolved with a little work on your part.

 

[Gunfighting Inc]

Re: Handgun Marksmanship

Don't take this negatively, but the fact you seem to be wondering what the problem might be suggests your true pistol marksmanship experience is limited and/or you were never taught to diagnose your own targets. As stated above, your issue is classic anticipation.

Proper instruction/coaching, followed by effective dry practice, will be your solution. I can not stress the importance of getting good instruction so that your dry practice is actually ingraining proper technique, otherwise, you're likely to be practicing your anticipation.

The goal of each dry practiced trigger press is to press the trigger so that when the hammer falls there is no disruption of sight alignment. Proper trigger reset is a second thing which should be practiced with each manipulation.

 

[Helidriver]

Re: Handgun Marksmanship

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Reinman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Don't take this negatively, but the fact you seem to be wondering what the problem might be suggests your true pistol marksmanship experience is limited and/or you were never taught to diagnose your own targets. As stated above, your issue is classic anticipation.

Proper instruction/coaching, followed by effective dry practice, will be your solution. I can not stress the importance of getting good instruction so that your dry practice is actually ingraining proper technique, otherwise, you're likely to be practicing your anticipation.

The goal of each dry practiced trigger press is to press the trigger so that when the hammer falls there is no disruption of sight alignment. Proper trigger reset is a second thing which should be practiced with each manipulation. </div></div>

No offense taken. I think you're right. It's been 16 years since my last qualification and the only trigger time was the practice leading up to and the actual qualification. Hardly what I would call "experienced" but certainly not a rookie. I was taught to read the target but that was so long ago I could not remember what everything meant.

This just came up this last weekend. Every time I go shooting I put 50 or so out of one of my handguns without any issues. That's why this was so much of a surprise and mystery. It's like it came on overnight. I did start taking BP meds this month. It took a few days to get used to them but I feel ok now. I wonder if that could be contributing? I had been on them for a few weeks before the shooting trip and I don't feel any side effects now.

Anyway do I need to use snap caps on a striker fired pistol for dry fire? I usually carry a G23 or an XDS. I want to fix the problem with them if I can.

 

[rideHPD]

Re: Handgun Marksmanship

http://www.atactv.com/firearms?keywords=handgun

I've found the videos on this site to be very helpful in diagnosing issues from shot patterns, and I used them to teach and coach my father when he started to shoot handgun. Mechanics are still the same as rifle; center pad of trigger finger on trigger, press straight to the rear, no pressure side to side, follow through, etc.

 

[ShtrRdy]

Re: Handgun Marksmanship

I use to have a really bad problem with low and left, (I'm a right handed shooter). I worked hard for most of a year to over come this, which was basically a flinch. I did a lot of dry fire practice, and shooting a .22 pistol. I would also try some live fire.

One of the live fire drills I would do is to just fire shots into the backstop while watching the gun, not the sights, and while closing my eyes. What you're trying to do is to just feel your tensions and allowing your body to experience the recoil.

 

[Graham]

Re: Handgun Marksmanship

Does anyone here see their sights lift?

Anyone......Anyone.....Bueler??

 

[WadeT]

Re: Handgun Marksmanship

....typically low left means jerking the trigger orsqueezing finger tips while applying trigger pull for a right hander. Dry fire and have a partner load your pistol mag for you using live rounds and alternating with snap caps are both good drills to do.... Meggitt I believe makes a pistol target with the diagnosis on it...
Respectfully,
W

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Handgun Marksmanship

The reflexes are anticipating recoil and beginning to rock the hand/pistol down to compensate in advance of the shot. Mixing snap caps in with the live rounds will usually confirm this.

For the right handed shooter, this motion forces the muzzle low and left; for lefty's, low and right.

The error stems from knowing in advance just when the gun will fire, and that stems from jerking the trigger, rather then squeezing it so the discharge comes without foreknowledge.

Concentrate on a steady, smooth trigger squeeze. It doesn't need to be slow, but it does need to be smooth and steady. Start slow, and work your way to faster. Remember, you cannot shoot fast enough to compensate for jerking the trigger, and you cannot shoot slolyw without recognizing it happens.

Greg

 

[tnichols]

Re: Handgun Marksmanship

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Does anyone here see their sights lift?

Anyone......Anyone.....Bueler??

</div></div>

You've been over on Enos too much...

 

[culater]

Re: Handgun Marksmanship

Back to basics

and buy a 22 upper for your 1911.A lesson I learn from an old guy 15yrs ago was to put a target up in your basement and tie a string on your trigger guard tie a 5 pound weight hangging down from the end of the string.Make sure your not loaded and ammo is put away.Get into a standing shooting stands.Then raise up only your strong arm up first and focus aiming at the target on the wall until your arm gets tired.Then switch arms and repeat.Increse the weight to 10 lb when using two hands.Make sure your target is at eye level.When you do this you will build muscle memory and will build up a natual point of aim.After awhile you can put a snap cap in and do the exercise and pull the trigger at the same time.Then go to the range and shoot and report back

 

[culater]

Re: Handgun Marksmanship

Back to basics

and buy a 22 upper for your 1911.A lesson I learn from an old guy 15yrs ago was to put a target up in your basement and tie a string on your trigger guard tie a 5 pound weight hangging down from the end of the string.Make sure your not loaded and ammo is put away.Get into a standing shooting stands.Then raise up only your strong arm up first and focus aiming at the target on the wall until your arm gets tired.Then switch arms and repeat.Increse the weight to 10 lb when using two hands.Make sure your target is at eye level.When you do this you will build muscle memory and will build up a natual point of aim.After awhile you can put a snap cap in and do the exercise and pull the trigger at the same time.Then go to the range and shoot and report back

 

[ShtrRdy]

Re: Handgun Marksmanship

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Does anyone here see their sights lift?

Anyone......Anyone.....Bueler??

</div></div>

I use to be able to do this a number of years ago. I'd like to be able to do this again but it's not coming along well.

 

[GunKnowledge]

Re: Handgun Marksmanship

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Does anyone here see their sights lift?

Anyone......Anyone.....Bueler??

</div></div>

Ding ding ding, we have a winner.

Probably the singlest coolest thing I've ever heard on a range teaching a new shooter; "Holy sh!t the gun spit fire that time!"

 

[VJJPunisher]

Re: Handgun Marksmanship

Low left is "pushing" the gun, usually one of two things being the culprit, 1- an fairly inexperienced pistol shooter flinching on trigger break "anticipating recoil" or 2- subconsciously trying to force the gun to go off when the sights look correct to your brain "command detonating"

You must master trigger control while focusing on the front sight, a trick to train this is to shoot at a clean white piece of paper or a target stapled up backwards, no aiming reference, your brain will center on paper amazingly well. When you are shooting decent groups go back to an actual target.

Train yer brain into knowing on a pistol the sights are going to be moving and that's ok, just work the trigger with control and don't force it to go off when it looks right.

P.s. I have no clue what the fuck I'm talking about I just made all that up

 

[Helidriver]

Re: Handgun Marksmanship

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Does anyone here see their sights lift?

Anyone......Anyone.....Bueler??

</div></div>

OK, I have to ask.....what the hell does this mean?

 

[longguntoter]

Re: Handgun Marksmanship

Helidriver, don't feel bad. I got my 3rd award bar for my Expert Badge when I was in the Marines, but now have some seriously "shaky" hands sometimes. I don't get that, unless it is age related. Maybe your shots are going left because of trigger squeeze pushing the gun left of the bull right at the last second of follow through.

 

[marduk185]

Re: Handgun Marksmanship

Forget pistol getta fal

 

[Pat Harrison]

Re: Handgun Marksmanship

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Helidriver</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Does anyone here see their sights lift?

Anyone......Anyone.....Bueler??

</div></div>

OK, I have to ask.....what the hell does this mean? </div></div>

It means staying with the sights through the firing sequence to the point where you see the front sight lift (or dot) on recoil.
What happens for most people is the act of aligning the sights then pulling the trigger are two seperate actions. Instead you should be staying with the sights throughout the trigger press.

 

[Graham]

Re: Handgun Marksmanship

It means: One shot; two sight pictures.

 

[Topstrap]

Re: Handgun Marksmanship

I've taught my son when he first started shooting handguns that no matter what the gun does after the shot is fired you keep your eye on that target like you're trying to guide that bullet to dead center. After the shot it doesn't matter what the gun does, you are along for the ride and don't fight or muscle it. That carried into him learning to shoot our LR pistols to 1000 yards. Handguns by nature smack your hand and cause a discomfort that the body doesn't feel is normal and that causes a muscle reaction.

I'll go on a limb and say most pistol shooters to some degree try to control the recoil or anticipate it and jerk or at the least give the trigger a fast squeeze that usually leads to the problems that others on here have stated that cause the bullet to go to a certain location on the target. Usually by looking at your target an instructor or skilled handgun shooter can pretty much tell what you are doing wrong.

They aren't easy to learn to shoot well and even after hundreds of thousands of rounds thru various handguns I still need to give it my total concentration to make a perfect shot. I'm not a very good fast or action style shooter and can't comment on the proper technique to get off fast accurate shots but I'd still think it has to be a fast controlled squeeze with proper grip technique.

Just like what you've read on here or been taught about rifle shooting and follow thru applies to handguns. I have a short video of what I'm talking about with follow thru, takes quite a while to not anticipate the recoil and have correct follow thru. This isn't your normal style of handgun but the correct technique applies to all handguns. If you watch Chris, he makes sure he has the exact same grip tension and finger placement every shot, it even applies to arm/shoulder tension. Your body is more involved with handgun shooting so paying attention to everything each shot is very critical. Just having one finger in a different position or pressure on the grip affects how a handgun shoots.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imJyqvJbfoY

It doesn't matter if it's one of these bolt action LR pistols, a 44mag revolver, 45 auto or a 22LR Buckmark, the principal is still the same. I always try to get new handgun shooters to start with a 22LR and work up, they learn good technique and aren't affected right off with the noise and recoil that takes forever to overcome.

Topstrap

 

[pepperbelly]

Re: Handgun Marksmanship


I see many here are saying it is flinching, but a low-left comes from "milking the grip" When you pull the trigger you are subconsciously squeezing the grip with your pinky and ring finger at the same time you move the trigger finger.
I am a master class pistol shooter- I wish my rifle skills were better. I help a lot of people that have trouble at our range.

Try this- grip an empty pistol, aim and pull the trigger. Watch the front sight and see if it dips low-left. Try to notice if you squeeze the grip. It helps to have someone watch you.

 

[ShtrRdy]

Re: Handgun Marksmanship

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Helidriver</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Does anyone here see their sights lift?

Anyone......Anyone.....Bueler??

</div></div>

OK, I have to ask.....what the hell does this mean? </div></div>

If you are able to see your sights lift, it allows you to know if your shot is VERY likely to hit your target. If you can do this then you don't have to wait to see what the result is, or wait for a sound, in the case of shooting steel.

 

[jolofree]

Re: Handgun Marksmanship

Originally Posted By: kraigWYUnless I missed it, three things were left out:

FRONT SIGHT
FRONT SIGHT
FRONT SIGHT

Focal Point on Iron sights HAS TO BE the front sight.


I think this applies to iron sighted pistols as well,
and then with a firm grip on the pistol w/ both hands...

 

[Gunfighting Inc]

Re: Handgun Marksmanship

Flinching, palming, milking, heeling, pushing, cupping, jerking... it doesn't matter what you call it or what the shooter is doing, if the shooter is doing anything other than pulling the trigger straight to the rear in such a way as to not disturb sight alignment, he is managing the trigger incorrectly for the perfect shot.

Rather than focus on what one is doing wrong, and then try to correct it by not doing that thing ("don't flinch...don't flinch"), it is better to simply concentrate on doing the correct thing ("smooth...smooth..."). It may seem a small difference, but it is a huge difference in what you are training your subconscious to do.

I'm telling you, if you have never felt a perfect press and cannot perform it on demand, you need a coach to show you what you are searching for.

 

[darthmeanstreak]

Re: Handgun Marksmanship

You are anticipating. That's it.

The bottom line is that as the hammer strikes the firing pin, you are unconsciously moving the front sight off your point of aim. This is why it is so fundamentally important to have the front sight COMPLETELY IN FOCUS. This means that the target is OUT OF FOCUS. "Seeing" the front sight is not good enough. You must be able to see the lines cut into the front sight, or the white dot, or whatever it is that "decorates" your front sight. If your name was inscribed into the front sight in microscopic letters, you should be able to read it. This is the essence of aiming (a function of sight picture and sight alignment) that feeds into the fundamental of Trigger Control.

Trigger Control is a steady increase of pressure on the trigger causing the hammer to fall without disturbing sight alignment. If you have the front sight COMPLETELY IN FOCUS during this steady increase of pressure on the trigger, you cannot help but to consciously keep the front sight on the target throughout the firing sequence which will reduce your tendency to anticipate or eliminate it completely.

To determine what degree you are anticipating, bring a buddy to the range and conduct "ball and dummy drills." This is where you hand the pistol back over your shoulder (maintain orientation in a safe direction) to your buddy. He either loads a round or he doesn't without you knowing. He hands the pistol back to you and you conduct a slow fire at the target. If no round was loaded, you should experience a drop of the hammer with no noticeable movement of the sights. If you "flinch" or "anticipate," you will finally see why your rounds do not strike the point of aim.

 

[Hogstooth]

Re: Handgun Marksmanship

Well, it could be as simple as the placement of his trigger finger that is causing him to push or hook his finger on the trigger.

You need to look at your grip, take pictures and post them up, how much grip are you using? Are you over gripping? Some will say you can't over grip but I have also seen those that grip so hard they can't control their trigger finger, or they wind up influencing the gun when they press the trigger anyways.

Your trigger finger placement. Put your finger on the trigger where it is comfortable and you have good contact, good contact and comfort equal good control!

Recoil management, if you are having to regrip the gun every single shot, then you are not maintaining your grip during recoil. Grip is frozen in place once you have it set up.

One of the other things to keep in mind is that you can probaly articulate how you grip the gun and how you line up the sights but you probably can't tell me exactly how you press the trigger? There has to be a conscience transition once you get the sights on target into pressing the trigger and how you actually do it.

Do you take the slack up then speed your finger up over the bump? Do you start slowly and speed up just before the (bump) or second stage? 1911s don't have a (2 stage trigger) so what I described above probably doesn't apply? Maybe just finger placement would solve your problem?

Anyways, if you still have problems find someone who knows how to diagnose and coach you in your pistol marksmanship. It usually is something simple that can fix most problem, but if you are just scared then just say your are scared!!

 

[Joe L]

Re: Handgun Marksmanship

Think about pulling the trigger straight back to your nose without changing the grip hold at all. More grip tension in the left hand than the right will help you not change the tension in the right hand as you pull the trigger back with the index finger...to your nose.

Joe