Handloading for friend dilemma.... your thoughts please.

[demolitionman]

My best friend. There are no liabilities here for loading him some precise ammunition as we’ve shot bolt guns together for over a decade. Anyway, he and I both built up long range AR15’s. He’s using an 18” criterion and I’m running a WOA 22” Varmint. I loaded some rounds to go test function and what not(24gr varget and 77smk 2.260oal). My gun loves the load and I’m just going to stick with it.

However he shot the same load and it’s all over the place. 2.5” groups. So I handload a bunch of other stuff for him to test. 73eld, 77smk, 75bthp m, you know the usual AR15 heavies for 223. Loaded different powder weights from 23.3 to 24.2 varget. His gun is still shooting 1.5” or more @. 100 with him behind the gun.

To eliminate variables; is there any reason I can’t simply take his upper; bolt it to my lower and just do all the group shooting myself? To take him out of the equation? If an upper shoots a bullet well it should do so on typically any lower so long as the trigger and shooter isn’t the weak link? He’s got some sort of arise Armament bullshit rounded flat trigger that feels like fuck to to me so I cant stand shooting his lower but I’ve got to get him a known good load so we can go shoot steel. I’m sick of load development.

 

[Iamero]

I had the same issue with my buddy's rifle. I had an Anderson 24" 1:8 varmint barrel on a rifle I built and the thing would hammer insane groups all day. He bought the same barrel a few months later and no matter what he shot, it would always open up to 1" at the very best, but often was closer to 1.25-1.5" at 100.

I've shot with him before and know he's a good shooter, but I did exactly what you mentioned. I took his upper and slapped it on my lower with my scope and mount (take that variable out of the equation too). It still shot like garbage. At this point I figured it was the barrel, but wanted to try a few more handloads before calling Anderson and being "that guy".

At the end of the day I got it to shoot a 77 SMK load and a 55gr Vmax load around 3/4" on a pretty consistent basis. Everything else we tried from handloads to match grade factory ammo still shoots like garbage (we thought it might be barrel break in needed or something). End of the day, it was just a barrel that is really picky for some reason. Could be exactly what's going on here.

 

[daylate]

My best friend. There are no liabilities here for loading him some precise ammunition as we’ve shot bolt guns together for over a decade. Anyway, he and I both built up long range AR15’s. He’s using an 18” criterion and I’m running a WOA 22” Varmint. I loaded some rounds to go test function and what not(24gr varget and 77smk 2.260oal). My gun loves the load and I’m just going to stick with it.

However he shot the same load and it’s all over the place. 2.5” groups. So I handload a bunch of other stuff for him to test. 73eld, 77smk, 75bthp m, you know the usual AR15 heavies for 223. Loaded different powder weights from 23.3 to 24.2 varget. His gun is still shooting 1.5” or more @. 100 with him behind the gun.

To eliminate variables; is there any reason I can’t simply take his upper; bolt it to my lower and just do all the group shooting myself? To take him out of the equation? If an upper shoots a bullet well it should do so on typically any lower so long as the trigger and shooter isn’t the weak link? He’s got some sort of arise Armament bullshit rounded flat trigger that feels like fuck to to me so I cant stand shooting his lower but I’ve got to get him a known good load so we can go shoot steel. I’m sick of load development.

I don't see any issue with doing that....and you might do vice versus with him shooting your upper on his lower might explain a few things....

 

[Not_A_Llama]

Theoretically, you could introduce variation in buffer weight and spring rate differences between your lowers, but I’ve never seen those to have had much impact.

 

[Deleted member 113831]

My best friend. There are no liabilities here for loading him some precise ammunition as we’ve shot bolt guns together for over a decade. Anyway, he and I both built up long range AR15’s. He’s using an 18” criterion and I’m running a WOA 22” Varmint. I loaded some rounds to go test function and what not(24gr varget and 77smk 2.260oal). My gun loves the load and I’m just going to stick with it.

However he shot the same load and it’s all over the place. 2.5” groups. So I handload a bunch of other stuff for him to test. 73eld, 77smk, 75bthp m, you know the usual AR15 heavies for 223. Loaded different powder weights from 23.3 to 24.2 varget. His gun is still shooting 1.5” or more @. 100 with him behind the gun.

To eliminate variables; is there any reason I can’t simply take his upper; bolt it to my lower and just do all the group shooting myself? To take him out of the equation? If an upper shoots a bullet well it should do so on typically any lower so long as the trigger and shooter isn’t the weak link? He’s got some sort of arise Armament bullshit rounded flat trigger that feels like fuck to to me so I cant stand shooting his lower but I’ve got to get him a known good load so we can go shoot steel. I’m sick of load development.

23.5 grains might shoot well in both your rifles. That is a proven service rifle load in a multitude of different rifles.

 

[Howland]

If people appreciated the time and effort to craft the most accurate ammunition for any particular rifle, very few would ever take up reloading. I wouldn't be doing that for anyone. If you want those benefits, then suck it up and learn. Otherwise, go to the LGS and pick your brand.

I have however mentored two novices who were both able to craft sub MOA ammunition on their initial project.

I'm not sure the first one counts, though. He is the most gifted natural marksman I've met. Maybe it was his upbringing. His father started him squirrel hunting at a very young age. His mother would chastise him if he ruined meat. His father was disappointed if the brain got messed up because he liked to cook them in a frying pan. Poor kid was expected to make neck shots. True story.

 

[Not_A_Llama]

I don’t know anyone with a pulse who hasn’t been able to squeeze out a sub-MOA loading. Load ladders, see what’s up, stop when you see pressure signs, interpolate your best results.

 

[Holescreek]

Barrel twist rates are the same?

 

[demolitionman]

Barrel twist rates are the same?

Buddies is an 18” criterion Stainless steel 1:8 Twist. If the weather cooperates; I’ll post back my results from this weekend. Thanks for the replies. I’ve loaded for 3 of my personal Ar’s and all have shot sub moa with a load of 23.3 to 24 gr. Varget and Smk 77 loaded 2.248 to 2.260 Oal. I’ve got some investigating to do with his....he’s using some sort of Weaver brand scope mount on a proven Swfa 12x that I gave him Maybe the mounts junk.

 

[10ring1]

I don’t know anyone with a pulse who hasn’t been able to squeeze out a sub-MOA loading. Load ladders, see what’s up, stop when you see pressure signs, interpolate your best results.

Especially with a criterion barrel

 

[Danco411]

It's probably not the Criterion barrel as they are excellent. You never know you could get a dud but most likely it is the shooter and/or the trigger. The lower makes no difference other than the trigger and the ergonomics. Shooting it from a rest like a lead sled will take the shooter out of it but if you don't have one then why not swap lowers.

 

[fxdrider]

My best friend. There are no liabilities here for loading him some precise ammunition as we’ve shot bolt guns together for over a decade. Anyway, he and I both built up long range AR15’s. He’s using an 18” criterion and I’m running a WOA 22” Varmint. I loaded some rounds to go test function and what not(24gr varget and 77smk 2.260oal). My gun loves the load and I’m just going to stick with it.

However he shot the same load and it’s all over the place. 2.5” groups. So I handload a bunch of other stuff for him to test. 73eld, 77smk, 75bthp m, you know the usual AR15 heavies for 223. Loaded different powder weights from 23.3 to 24.2 varget. His gun is still shooting 1.5” or more @. 100 with him behind the gun.

To eliminate variables; is there any reason I can’t simply take his upper; bolt it to my lower and just do all the group shooting myself? To take him out of the equation? If an upper shoots a bullet well it should do so on typically any lower so long as the trigger and shooter isn’t the weak link? He’s got some sort of arise Armament bullshit rounded flat trigger that feels like fuck to to me so I cant stand shooting his lower but I’ve got to get him a known good load so we can go shoot steel. I’m sick of load development.

Just another thought - assuming you are both shooting together, you could just shoot a couple of groups with his gun as is (upper & lower together). That also would remove your friend from the equation.

 

[demolitionman]

I stopped out at his place today, as the weather is crap. I got to looking closer at his setup, and he has obvious recoil rub marks from his bipod attachment mount, where it was contacting the gas block. So his Criterion barrel obviously wasn't free floated. I'm nearly certain this is the issue. Pretty stoked! This is actually good news. Got it all squared away now, with nothing contacting. Just gotta get him back to the range!

 

[SoCal326]

So how'd it work out?

 

[Alabusa]

Range report please!

 

[demolitionman]

Range report please!

He hasn’t been out with me since. I’ll report back when we get out together again.