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SubscribeThe learning curve is not as steep as it's made out to be if you a) use target focus and b) use dry fire practice to fix your draw and presentation so the dot appears where you look 100% of the time.Not dramatically more accurate. The dot is easier for aging eyes to see, so that helps some. There is a steep learning curve to using a dot in action pistol sports. Much easier to use in bullseye matches.
For me, yes.Has your employment of a red dot made you a more precise pistol shooter? Thanks in advance.
The subject line pretty much sums it up. Has your employment of a red dot made you a more precise pistol shooter? Thanks in advance.
YES
Shooting open sights I would draw, point the pistol at the target and then line up the sights. This can be done pretty quick.
With a red dot I draw, point the pistol at the target and..... I don't see anything?! Where is the dot?! After a few reps of dry fire and building muscle memory I can now look at the target and simply put the dot on it. Sometimes after I've dry fires a few times and I am warmed up I can look at the target, close my eyes, draw and point the pistol. Open my eyes and I am on target.
I shot a buddies Limited gun and found that I shoot open sights much faster now because I am a better pistol shooter now. The red dot showed me how much I was doing wrong. Train out the wrong and you are better overall.
I can look at the target, close my eyes, draw and point the pistol. Open my eyes and I am on target.
At 3 yards (your cherry picked example) you barely need to aim if you have a good index. You should be equally as fast with either sighting system.At likely defensive distances I am much faster with irons and acceptably accurate.
As a disliker of batteries, owner of a beautiful astigmatism, and someone who is not duty bound to defend anyone, I will stick with my XS Big Dot iron sights until EoTech’s holographic technology gets small enough to put in a pistol.
-Stan
By which standard?My fundamentals are good.
With good reasonI hate to use the term point shooting because it brings out the haters.
You wasted your timeI"ve taken several days of instinctive/reflexive shooting classes with people who are considered to be students of the great Bob Taubert. It's not an either or situation.
Every shot I take is sighted, even at that distance. And I bet I could beat your point shooting speed. You are right about index, thoughAt arms length there is zero reference to anything visual other than the target. You index based on muscle memory.
I and many people use target focus with irons way past 50 feet. Don't you? Why do you slow down because of distance?As you move out you make more reference to the sights until somewhere around 50 ft, you are making a hard focus on the front sight. As you go out, you slow down.
That's certainly not the case for everyoneI used an extreme example to illustrate a point, but it doesn't change the fact that at likely defensive distances I am faster with irons
That's because they foolishly try to focus on the dot as if it were a front sight and their index sucks because irons let you get away with a less than well developed index.and anyone who is reasonably skilled with irons will also require a fairly long transition period.
What's your definition of instinctive? I want to make sure I understand the context. Why do you waste time overconfirming? Maybe you should have spent some of your training money on Ben Stoeger, Tim Herron, Mason Lane, or any other high level practical shooter who teaches; instead of spending all that money on classes with some point shooting guy that no one has ever heard of. Then you would have learned about different levels of confirmation based on shot difficulty and time constraintsI failed to explain that I think this is partly because I'm 100% instinctive with irons and am not yet 100% instinctive with a dot. And yes, I do waste time over confirming.
We agree on that. Though I bet we disagree on what "trained" actually involves.A red dot for a carry gun, once the person is trained and transitioned is definitely superior.
I think you overestimate the time it takes, since you haven't transitioned to a RDS. I do know because I've transitioned and quite successfully.I guess my main point that I was trying to make, but didn't do very well at is that most people badly underestimate the amount of time it takes to gain instinctive proficiency with one.
Kinda irrelevant. I've been shooting pistols for 5 years and picked up optics 4 years ago. Went from nothing to USPSA Master in that time. How long someone has been doing something doesn't mean much to me. How well can someone do something means more.I’ve been shooting for roughly 40 years. In that time I’ve shot everything from bulls-eye, to IDPA, to sporting clays with iron/brass sighted guns. I found pretty quickly that long range shots, where I’d normally have had a hard focus on the front sight, were easier and more accurate with a dot. Shoot, I put an early AimPoint on my dad's .22 pistol that he used in a local league, way back in 1985ish.
There's that overcomfirmation thing againI also had difficulty shooting as quickly at defensive distances with it. I found I would get “fiddly” with it trying to get the perfect shot, when good enough would have been good enough and much faster.
JV numbersWith roughly 4500 rounds shot in relatively structured training environments, plus another 4000 or soon my own,
1. YesI’m of the following opinion.
1. Eventually I will be better all around with the dot sight.
2. I am currently better served by an iron sighted defensive handgun because I am reasonably accurate and a good deal faster at LIKELY defensive distances.
3. Most people MASSIVELY underestimate the amount of shooting it will take to become more proficient (100% instinctive) with a dot sight than they are currently with iron sights.
4. If you don’t have instinctive proficiency with irons, then transition will take less time because you won’t have to get as much better before you are good with a dot sight.
5) One reason a dot sight is "harder" is that if you are inconsistent in your mount (like most shooters) then you will have to "find" the dot. If you are way off with irons, it's easy to see with your periphery how you need to correct. With all dots except for one, you have to waste time finding the dot.
So instead of buying a ching-chong made gimmick, put the time in dry fire to refine your index so the dot shows up in front of your eyes no matter what.The problem with the one sight that provides this kind of instinctive corrective feedback is that it's Chinese. And it's not just Chinese, but made by a Chinese company that also makes sights for the PLA and the CCP. That company is of course Holosun and their Vulcan reticle, which is only sold through Primary Arms. The Vulcan retical includes a huge circle reticle such that if the gun is crooked and the dot is outside your field of view, the circle of the Vulcan reticle IS visible, giving you instant feedback.
FuddsThis seems like a minor thing. But I've run drills where people SEEMED proficient with a dot sight completely fell apart when they had to
1) shoot from behind cover
2) shoot from the ground (like if you were just attacked and find yourself on the ground)
3) strong or weak hand only.
You guys can say whatever you want with your homemade, non-reproducible, non-documented "testing"After months of running them I didn't find myself to be more accurate with them to 30yds, and I found my draw to first shot times to be a cunt hair slower sub 10yds, rest tended to equal out.
But, I also spent well over $1,000 on different iron sights to find a combo I love. And I have great natural point of aim with my handguns, I spent a lot of money to make that the case.
I can run them much like red dot speed shooters note they run the dot, simply confirm color and pull the trigger, for practical accuracy.
My 5yd target is a 7x12, 2x2 of that is the head, my 7yd target is the same but it is a hostage target, so it has a 2" circle swinger as well. My 8 1/3yd target is a 10x16, 3x3 head box is part of that, it's a hostage target as well, so it has a 3" circle swinger as well. My 10 yd target is a texas star on which I replaced the 8" plates with 4" plates, then 8" plates to 20yds, 10" at 25 and 30, a 12x20 at 30 and another texas star but with 8" at 30yds.
I note that to note that I love to practice speed but with headshots only on my 5, 7 and 8 1/3yd targets, and bat the hostage taker circle plates back and forth. My 10yd texas star is also behind these targets, so I have to dodge and weave to shoot the moving 4" plates, precision is needed or I may cut my shorter targets down. I tend to like my practical accuracy to be better than a whole chest, not that that's needed, or even smart, but I sure feel better if I can speed run and hit inside 2" and 3" targets.
I tried the red dots with all configs, the circle dot, the circle, the dot, the circle dot I found quite useless, the others got several weeks of trial each. If a person runs a red dot liking to confirm to relative clarity of the reticle, I found the circle quicker and every bit as accurate, if you can shoot to a blur of color without needing dot clarity, you want just the dot.