Has your employment of a red dot made you more accurate?

[GrayRyder]

The subject line pretty much sums it up. Has your employment of a red dot made you a more precise pistol shooter? Thanks in advance.

 

[oldrifleman]

With my eyes as an old fart yes, if I was still a young guy no. In my 40s I could shoot just fine with irons. Now in my 60s it is a dot, wish it wasn’t.

 

[John?]

Not dramatically more accurate. The dot is easier for aging eyes to see, so that helps some. There is a steep learning curve to using a dot in action pistol sports. Much easier to use in bullseye matches.

 

[308pirate]

Not dramatically more accurate. The dot is easier for aging eyes to see, so that helps some. There is a steep learning curve to using a dot in action pistol sports. Much easier to use in bullseye matches.

The learning curve is not as steep as it's made out to be if you a) use target focus and b) use dry fire practice to fix your draw and presentation so the dot appears where you look 100% of the time.

 

[diggler1833]

I say this as a guy who has still NOT transitioned to red dots from iron sights:

I have zero doubt that someone who trains the same amount with either - will be more proficient at "combat shooting" with a red dot. I was one of a couple CMTs in my battalion when we (USMC) transitioned from iron sights to the RCO. A good shot, with proper fundamentals, will still be just as accurate during deliberate, slow fire with iron sights... However, the speed at which Marines could quickly engage up close targets during CMP/EMP drills increased noticeably once we went to the RCO.

When my eyesight starts to fail much further, I'll have no choice to start transitioning to dots myself.

 

[jpp3g]

I haven't noticed a significant difference in precision, but I have definitely noticed a difference in accuracy at speed. If you're intending to compete or use the gun for self defense, you should at least try out a quality red dot optic. The steepest part of the learning curve will be figuring out how to find the dot without using the iron sights as a crutch. Once you've trained that out, you'll be able to shoot significantly faster while still maintaining practical accuracy.

 

[Terry Cross]

Has your employment of a red dot made you a more precise pistol shooter? Thanks in advance.

For me, yes.

I transitioned to RDS on everything but my G43 about 2 years ago. After reprogramming my brain I can now see the gains.

For me, I am just as fast on open targets that are close to mid range as I was with irons but where I see a big jump in confidence is on partial targets behind hard cover and targets behind no-shoots. I am taking and making shots with not much target to go after, whereas before I would take the time to shift my position enough to give me more to shoot at or be forced to slow way down and be more deliberate.

The worse light conditions are, the bigger the advantage the RDS has.

I shot an outlaw USPSA match at Fort Polk Saturday running a G17 with 6moa Leupy DPP. They had stages with a little of everything but to give an example of the RDS still being fairly fast, the last stage our squad shot was a quick stage from the USPSA book as shown here.

I was shooting from a Safariland duty rig with Level II retention and managed a 2.91 second time with As on the paper. Great time for me but far from the fastest shot that day. Everybody that shot faster than I did was also running RDS of one flavor or another.
(I did shoot the same stage with a 2.35 second time with my PCC and a Sig Romeo 4T a few minutes later)

If you are in the fence, GO FOR IT.
I would recommend taking a well vetted RDS class just to get you up to speed faster. I can vouch for the Modern Samurai Project. Especially find out where Hunter Freeland is teaching and get to one of his classes. https://www.modernsamuraiproject.com/endorsedinstructors

The amount of ammo you will save to avoid learning bad fundamentals will easily pay for the class. You can thank me later.

 

[Franko]

I'm terrible with a handgun but my middle aged eyes required me to switch to a red dot and now I am slightly less bad.

 

[D̷e̷v̷i̷l̷D̷o̷c̷A̷Z̷]

For me it “clicked” like waterski’ing.

I’m so much better w a red dot.

 

[hlee]

Learning to use a red dot has improved my iron sight acquisition. I don’t think I’m more “accurate” with either, but the red dot is a lot easier to use effectively.

 

[Guthwine]

Shooting with a red dot almost feels like cheating to me. Allthough more in the accuracy at speed category not accuracy alone.

 

[simonp]

Definitely made me more precise at distance, shrinks my groups up at 25 yards and allows me to shoot more quickly and accurately at a distance.

 

[GrayRyder]

Wow, thanks to everyone for your very useful comments.

 

[308pirate]

The subject line pretty much sums it up. Has your employment of a red dot made you a more precise pistol shooter? Thanks in advance.

It has allowed me to become a much more effective practical pistol shooter. Precision is a one-dimensional measure, and by itself not useful at all in a practical context (meaning in the absence of tight time constraints).

 

[reewik]

I shoot both. I too am no longer a spring chicken as I used to be able to see perfectly both close and far. Now as I am aging, up close/ reading requires a +2 set of glasses. Because I have been shooting irons so long I am still good with irons but the dot gives me more confidence when shooting. Now I have to use readers to reset my turrets on the long guns too... grrr

 

[SanPatHogger]

YES

Shooting open sights I would draw, point the pistol at the target and then line up the sights. This can be done pretty quick.
With a red dot I draw, point the pistol at the target and..... I don't see anything?! Where is the dot?! After a few reps of dry fire and building muscle memory I can now look at the target and simply put the dot on it. Sometimes after I've dry fires a few times and I am warmed up I can look at the target, close my eyes, draw and point the pistol. Open my eyes and I am on target.

I shot a buddies Limited gun and found that I shoot open sights much faster now because I am a better pistol shooter now. The red dot showed me how much I was doing wrong. Train out the wrong and you are better overall.

 

[308pirate]

YES

Shooting open sights I would draw, point the pistol at the target and then line up the sights. This can be done pretty quick.
With a red dot I draw, point the pistol at the target and..... I don't see anything?! Where is the dot?! After a few reps of dry fire and building muscle memory I can now look at the target and simply put the dot on it. Sometimes after I've dry fires a few times and I am warmed up I can look at the target, close my eyes, draw and point the pistol. Open my eyes and I am on target.

I shot a buddies Limited gun and found that I shoot open sights much faster now because I am a better pistol shooter now. The red dot showed me how much I was doing wrong. Train out the wrong and you are better overall.

This^......so much this


This is where you want to end up:

I can look at the target, close my eyes, draw and point the pistol. Open my eyes and I am on target.

 

[USK308]

For a number of years, I struggled with traditional handgun sights. I tried a half-dozen variants ultimately returning to factory sights. (Note: part of this time was spent in the LE world, doing pistol qual testing as often as I could).

Fast-forward to the RDS era and after putting one on my primary handgun, I have found myself being far more accurate from 15 yds in.

I do think that range-time (aka practice) with either traditional sights OR an RDS will enhance accuracy. I have been considering a Mantis X2, so I can do more dry-fire practice from home (saving $$ on ammunition) but still plan to continue doing range time with ammunition on a regular basis as there are components of live-fire that you just cannot simulate!

 

[Sheldon N]

I added red dots to my pistols this past year. For me it was a massive difference. Yes, some dry fire training is needed to build my index so that my draw and dot presentation comes naturally and forcing myself to target focus.

The dramatic difference for me was in the quality of the feedback loop. The dot made it so much easier for me to see and diagnose what I'm doing wrong in live fire and dry fire and to work on correcting it. It also added precision (or at least the perception of precision) since the dot is so much more clear feedback on where I'm aiming and where the bullet is going to go.

I'm not a great pistol shooter, but adding red dots made it more enjoyable and I'm shooting a ton more pistol now.

 

[dcmdon]

I am a fairly skilled practical pistol shooter. At one point I was classified Expert in IDPA in SSP. So while I'm no Dave Sevigney, I'm reasonably skilled.

I have been practicing with a red dot sight on a duplicate of my iron sighted carry gun for just over 2 years. In that time I've taken 3 - 2 day classes at Sig. I've shot half of the days with the dot sight equipped gun.

I am definitely more accurate with a red dot. But that isn't really the point of defensive pistol shooting.

Defensive pistol shooting is all about shooting as fast as you can with ACCEPTABLE accuracy.
At likely defensive distances I am much faster with irons and acceptably accurate.

Look at it this way. In a defensive situation at 15 ft. What would you rather be capable of.

1) draw and fire 3 shots into a 5" group in 1.5 seconds
2) draw and fire 3 shots into a 2" group in 2.5 seconds.

Of course if you are talking about a dot sight for bulls eye shooting, there isn't really any comparison. Especially now that I'm older and have a hard time getting the front sight into crisp focus.

 

[308pirate]

At likely defensive distances I am much faster with irons and acceptably accurate.

At 3 yards (your cherry picked example) you barely need to aim if you have a good index. You should be equally as fast with either sighting system.

If you're slower with a red dot than you are with irons at 3 yards then you haven't learned how to really use a reflex sight

 

[308pirate]

The speed at which you can make challenging, high accountability shots at defensive distances is significantly higher with a red dot.

If you're not finding that to be true, then you haven't learned how to use a red dot sight or you are overconfirming your sights because your fundamentals of marksmanship suck and you have to "slow down to get your hits".

 

[dcmdon]

My fundamentals are good. I hate to use the term point shooting because it brings out the haters.

I"ve taken several days of instinctive/reflexive shooting classes with people who are considered to be students of the great Bob Taubert. It's not an either or situation.

At arms length there is zero reference to anything visual other than the target. You index based on muscle memory.

As you move out you make more reference to the sights until somewhere around 50 ft, you are making a hard focus on the front sight. As you go out, you slow down.

I used an extreme example to illustrate a point, but it doesn't change the fact that at likely defensive distances I am faster with irons and anyone who is reasonably skilled with irons will also require a fairly long transition period.

I failed to explain that I think this is partly because I'm 100% instinctive with irons and am not yet 100% instinctive with a dot. And yes, I do waste time over confirming.

A red dot for a carry gun, once the person is trained and transitioned is definitely superior. I guess my main point that I was trying to make, but didn't do very well at is that most people badly underestimate the amount of time it takes to gain instinctive proficiency with one.

I’ve been shooting for roughly 40 years. In that time I’ve shot everything from bulls-eye, to IDPA, to sporting clays with iron/brass sighted guns. I found pretty quickly that long range shots, where I’d normally have had a hard focus on the front sight, were easier and more accurate with a dot. Shoot, I put an early AimPoint on my dad's .22 pistol that he used in a local league, way back in 1985ish.

I also had difficulty shooting as quickly at defensive distances with it. I found I would get “fiddly” with it trying to get the perfect shot, when good enough would have been good enough and much faster.

With roughly 4500 rounds shot in relatively structured training environments, plus another 4000 or soon my own, I’m of the following opinion.

1. Eventually I will be better all around with the dot sight.
2. I am currently better served by an iron sighted defensive handgun because I am reasonably accurate and a good deal faster at LIKELY defensive distances.
3. Most people MASSIVELY underestimate the amount of shooting it will take to become more proficient (100% instinctive) with a dot sight than they are currently with iron sights.
4. If you don’t have instinctive proficiency with irons, then transition will take less time because you won’t have to get as much better before you are good with a dot sight.
5) One reason a dot sight is "harder" is that if you are inconsistent in your mount (like most shooters) then you will have to "find" the dot. If you are way off with irons, it's easy to see with your periphery how you need to correct. With all dots except for one, you have to waste time finding the dot.

The problem with the one sight that provides this kind of instinctive corrective feedback is that it's Chinese. And it's not just Chinese, but made by a Chinese company that also makes sights for the PLA and the CCP. That company is of course Holosun and their Vulcan reticle, which is only sold through Primary Arms. The Vulcan retical includes a huge circle reticle such that if the gun is crooked and the dot is outside your field of view, the circle of the Vulcan reticle IS visible, giving you instant feedback.

This seems like a minor thing. But I've run drills where people SEEMED proficient with a dot sight completely fell apart when they had to
1) shoot from behind cover
2) shoot from the ground (like if you were just attacked and find yourself on the ground)
3) strong or weak hand only.

All of a sudden their indexing was off. And it took them a long long time to get back on the dot.

So . . yes, it's long winded.

In summary. Dots are more accurate and possibly faster once you learn to use it properly. However even if you know how to use it properly, it needs to become 100% instinctive. Ot at least it needs to be as instinctive as irons, if you are new to shooting.

 

[mewillis]

At 65 I am almost all red dot for carbine and pistol except for a few I can also still shoot with supressor irons which are a must at my age.
I will say at first I hated pistol red dots, demanding myself to "use irons dammit" Now I have been relegated to admit they are a plus to be sure(G17/34, Sig 226/220) I'm not a competitive shooter but for my age group, normal eye aging they are a plus. Rifles, total game changer using red dots. Simply the way to go 50-300yds, but I still use some older models ie; M14, Garand, and my old faithful 1917 Enfield with irons for as long as I can. YMMV

 

[dms416]

It should be a clue how much faster, farther, and more accurate folks have gotten with this tech in terms of RAW performance and pushing metrics.


Performance aside, it has made me a better shooter from the point that dry fire became actual "data". I got to see that dot leave the target in real time rather than having a sight picture that wasn't as good as I thought with irons and thinking it was a good rep.

So even if I never fired a single live round from a red dot sighted pistol, I'm a much better shooter having used them in practice and what they've done for achieving more in said practice.

 

[stanley_white]

As a disliker of batteries, owner of a beautiful astigmatism, and someone who is not duty bound to defend anyone, I will stick with my XS Big Dot iron sights until EoTech’s holographic technology gets small enough to put in a pistol.

-Stan

 

[dcmdon]

As a disliker of batteries, owner of a beautiful astigmatism, and someone who is not duty bound to defend anyone, I will stick with my XS Big Dot iron sights until EoTech’s holographic technology gets small enough to put in a pistol.

-Stan

As long as you stick with good quality batteries and tier 1 American made sights (other than EOTech) batteries become an afterthought.

I have an aimpoint Micro T1 that I've owned for 10+ years. It's on its second CR2032 battery. I only replaced the first because it had been in the sight for 7 years. I don't leave it on normally. But did once leave it on accidentally for several months. This sight is on a 9mm Sig MPX that I tend to shoot in local steel matches in the summer. So it's not something would rely on to save my life. If it was, I'd leave it on and change my batteries when we switch to daylight savings time.

I've got a list of things to do once per year on that day. I'd just add it to my list.

I spoke above of the things you need to keep in mind when switching to a dot on a pistol, primarily the need to get instinctively good at indexing your head behind the dot from many positions using 2 hands, strong hand, and weak hand. With a rifle, transition is much easier because you have the stock to index your head in the correct position.

I was a convert when I took a carbine class at Academi back in 2011. We were shooting under barricades and I couldn't get my head behind the sights to aim. The instructor explained that with a dot you don't have to be precisely behind the rifle. You just had to be behind enough to see the dot. I borrowed his rifle for the drill and was a convert.

There was an Aimpoint rep there that day and during lunch he demonstrated dropping the rifle directly onto the sight and then picked it up and shot it, hitting the target. No failure. No change in zero.

He also demonstrated that it could be used to aim even if the glass is totally destroyed. He flipped down the far cap so you could see the dot but could not see through the scope. Shooting with both eyes opened, the dot appeared superimposed over the target and hits were easy. Like I said, I was converted. It's really a no-brainer with carbines whose intended use is 0-200 yards.

 

[308pirate]

My fundamentals are good.

By which standard?

I hate to use the term point shooting because it brings out the haters.

With good reason

I"ve taken several days of instinctive/reflexive shooting classes with people who are considered to be students of the great Bob Taubert. It's not an either or situation.

You wasted your time

At arms length there is zero reference to anything visual other than the target. You index based on muscle memory.

Every shot I take is sighted, even at that distance. And I bet I could beat your point shooting speed. You are right about index, though

As you move out you make more reference to the sights until somewhere around 50 ft, you are making a hard focus on the front sight. As you go out, you slow down.

I and many people use target focus with irons way past 50 feet. Don't you? Why do you slow down because of distance?

I used an extreme example to illustrate a point, but it doesn't change the fact that at likely defensive distances I am faster with irons

That's certainly not the case for everyone

and anyone who is reasonably skilled with irons will also require a fairly long transition period.

That's because they foolishly try to focus on the dot as if it were a front sight and their index sucks because irons let you get away with a less than well developed index.

I failed to explain that I think this is partly because I'm 100% instinctive with irons and am not yet 100% instinctive with a dot. And yes, I do waste time over confirming.

What's your definition of instinctive? I want to make sure I understand the context. Why do you waste time overconfirming? Maybe you should have spent some of your training money on Ben Stoeger, Tim Herron, Mason Lane, or any other high level practical shooter who teaches; instead of spending all that money on classes with some point shooting guy that no one has ever heard of. Then you would have learned about different levels of confirmation based on shot difficulty and time constraints

A red dot for a carry gun, once the person is trained and transitioned is definitely superior.

We agree on that. Though I bet we disagree on what "trained" actually involves.

I guess my main point that I was trying to make, but didn't do very well at is that most people badly underestimate the amount of time it takes to gain instinctive proficiency with one.

I think you overestimate the time it takes, since you haven't transitioned to a RDS. I do know because I've transitioned and quite successfully.

I’ve been shooting for roughly 40 years. In that time I’ve shot everything from bulls-eye, to IDPA, to sporting clays with iron/brass sighted guns. I found pretty quickly that long range shots, where I’d normally have had a hard focus on the front sight, were easier and more accurate with a dot. Shoot, I put an early AimPoint on my dad's .22 pistol that he used in a local league, way back in 1985ish.

Kinda irrelevant. I've been shooting pistols for 5 years and picked up optics 4 years ago. Went from nothing to USPSA Master in that time. How long someone has been doing something doesn't mean much to me. How well can someone do something means more.

I also had difficulty shooting as quickly at defensive distances with it. I found I would get “fiddly” with it trying to get the perfect shot, when good enough would have been good enough and much faster.

There's that overcomfirmation thing again

With roughly 4500 rounds shot in relatively structured training environments, plus another 4000 or soon my own,

JV numbers

I’m of the following opinion.

1. Eventually I will be better all around with the dot sight.
2. I am currently better served by an iron sighted defensive handgun because I am reasonably accurate and a good deal faster at LIKELY defensive distances.
3. Most people MASSIVELY underestimate the amount of shooting it will take to become more proficient (100% instinctive) with a dot sight than they are currently with iron sights.
4. If you don’t have instinctive proficiency with irons, then transition will take less time because you won’t have to get as much better before you are good with a dot sight.
5) One reason a dot sight is "harder" is that if you are inconsistent in your mount (like most shooters) then you will have to "find" the dot. If you are way off with irons, it's easy to see with your periphery how you need to correct. With all dots except for one, you have to waste time finding the dot.

1. Yes
2. Stop wasting time and get to dry firing so you overcome your weakness
3. It takes much less live fire than most people think and not all that much disciplined dry fire to get good with optics. Once again, you're talking about a skill you do not have.
4. WTF does that even mean? LOL
5. So instead of buying a ching-chong made gimmick, put the time in dry fire to refine your index so the dot shows up in front of your eyes no matter what.

The problem with the one sight that provides this kind of instinctive corrective feedback is that it's Chinese. And it's not just Chinese, but made by a Chinese company that also makes sights for the PLA and the CCP. That company is of course Holosun and their Vulcan reticle, which is only sold through Primary Arms. The Vulcan retical includes a huge circle reticle such that if the gun is crooked and the dot is outside your field of view, the circle of the Vulcan reticle IS visible, giving you instant feedback.

So instead of buying a ching-chong made gimmick, put the time in dry fire to refine your index so the dot shows up in front of your eyes no matter what.

This seems like a minor thing. But I've run drills where people SEEMED proficient with a dot sight completely fell apart when they had to
1) shoot from behind cover
2) shoot from the ground (like if you were just attacked and find yourself on the ground)
3) strong or weak hand only.

Fudds

 

[calling4life]

I didn't find myself to be, I shoot out to 30yds. I ran an EPS carry multi-reticle on my 2011 and a Romeo II with the multi-reticle on my P320. I also bought a slide for that P320 to run the red dot, I note that to say I spent about $1500 to try red dots.

I didn't try red dots as a way to fix anything, I tried them to see if they were a better mousetrap, for me, not you, me, for me.

After months of running them I didn't find myself to be more accurate with them to 30yds, and I found my draw to first shot times to be a cunt hair slower sub 10yds, rest tended to equal out.

But, I also spent well over $1,000 on different iron sights to find a combo I love. And I have great natural point of aim with my handguns, I spent a lot of money to make that the case.

I can run them much like red dot speed shooters note they run the dot, simply confirm color and pull the trigger, for practical accuracy.

My 5yd target is a 7x12, 2x2 of that is the head, my 7yd target is the same but it is a hostage target, so it has a 2" circle swinger as well. My 8 1/3yd target is a 10x16, 3x3 head box is part of that, it's a hostage target as well, so it has a 3" circle swinger as well. My 10 yd target is a texas star on which I replaced the 8" plates with 4" plates, then 8" plates to 20yds, 10" at 25 and 30, a 12x20 at 30 and another texas star but with 8" at 30yds.

I note that to note that I love to practice speed but with headshots only on my 5, 7 and 8 1/3yd targets, and bat the hostage taker circle plates back and forth. My 10yd texas star is also behind these targets, so I have to dodge and weave to shoot the moving 4" plates, precision is needed or I may cut my shorter targets down. I tend to like my practical accuracy to be better than a whole chest, not that that's needed, or even smart, but I sure feel better if I can speed run and hit inside 2" and 3" targets.

I tried the red dots with all configs, the circle dot, the circle, the dot, the circle dot I found quite useless, the others got several weeks of trial each. If a person runs a red dot liking to confirm to relative clarity of the reticle, I found the circle quicker and every bit as accurate, if you can shoot to a blur of color without needing dot clarity, you want just the dot.

The dots didn't shake out to be an advantage for me, not that they were a loss either, not in any statistically significant way overall, so, because it's quite simply easier to conceal without them, I decided to stick with irons and went back to them.

I did find that I liked no backup sights with the red dots, helped with speed, not mixing color confirmation speed shooting up between sights. And quite frankly, the red dots are reliable enough and there are enough visual cues to use even if they do fail, that backup irons just weren't needed.

And yes, I also carried with the red dots during the several months of testing. Dark house, I like my irons, light on gun and that light on, red dot.

 

[308pirate]

After months of running them I didn't find myself to be more accurate with them to 30yds, and I found my draw to first shot times to be a cunt hair slower sub 10yds, rest tended to equal out.

But, I also spent well over $1,000 on different iron sights to find a combo I love. And I have great natural point of aim with my handguns, I spent a lot of money to make that the case.

I can run them much like red dot speed shooters note they run the dot, simply confirm color and pull the trigger, for practical accuracy.

My 5yd target is a 7x12, 2x2 of that is the head, my 7yd target is the same but it is a hostage target, so it has a 2" circle swinger as well. My 8 1/3yd target is a 10x16, 3x3 head box is part of that, it's a hostage target as well, so it has a 3" circle swinger as well. My 10 yd target is a texas star on which I replaced the 8" plates with 4" plates, then 8" plates to 20yds, 10" at 25 and 30, a 12x20 at 30 and another texas star but with 8" at 30yds.

I note that to note that I love to practice speed but with headshots only on my 5, 7 and 8 1/3yd targets, and bat the hostage taker circle plates back and forth. My 10yd texas star is also behind these targets, so I have to dodge and weave to shoot the moving 4" plates, precision is needed or I may cut my shorter targets down. I tend to like my practical accuracy to be better than a whole chest, not that that's needed, or even smart, but I sure feel better if I can speed run and hit inside 2" and 3" targets.

I tried the red dots with all configs, the circle dot, the circle, the dot, the circle dot I found quite useless, the others got several weeks of trial each. If a person runs a red dot liking to confirm to relative clarity of the reticle, I found the circle quicker and every bit as accurate, if you can shoot to a blur of color without needing dot clarity, you want just the dot.

You guys can say whatever you want with your homemade, non-reproducible, non-documented "testing"

The fact of the matter is that it is very rare for anyone using a non-compensated iron sight pistol in a USPSA match to finish ahead of anyone of similar skill using a non-compensated pistol with optical sight.

 

[calling4life]

My range is in my backyard, the red dots are still sitting here as is the additional slide for my P320 that works with the red dot, the 2011 has always been setup to accept one.

You want to pay me for my time we can slap them back on and go run tests, fly on out, draw to first shot, draw to first shot on headboxes, accuracy testing and so on...

If I'm lying to you I'm lying to myself... There's no reason for me not to be running them if they were better for me, I already bought them, they are still here, I've got the $1500 in gear sitting here rotting away...

Is there a reason I'd be lying? Do you see it? Because I don't, I don't work in the industry, I'm not sponsored, I don't make money by not running red dots.

I run handguns because I carry a handgun, meaning my reason for owning them is strictly from a defense of life standpoint.

You think I'm risking my life using a materially worse product when I have the "better" product sitting 10ft away and ready to use?

You sound like the, "97% of scientists agree, humans are causing a global catastrophe, we are destroying the climate." Well look at that, all the "right" people are saying it, must be so and it must be so for everyone, everywhere, we've established "the" truth.

Get that coronavirus shot, safe and effective, all the "right" people say so, science is settled here bro, and for everyone.

What, you're allergic, fuck that, it's safe and effective, bro Ben Stoeger says so, do you know who he is, get the shot, can't be outliers, or perceived outliers, the right people are on our side.

By the way, never said don't use a red dot, go for it, just like I don't tell people they have to run a ported or comped gun, they have to carry appendix, they have to buy Toyota, be of a certain religion.

Do what's best for you, if my future testing shows the red dot right for me, they'll be on my guns, including my 500S&W, until then, irons.

 

[Detroit_1]

My fundamentals are good. I hate to use the term point shooting because it brings out the haters.

I"ve taken several days of instinctive/reflexive shooting classes with people who are considered to be students of the great Bob Taubert. It's not an either or situation.

At arms length there is zero reference to anything visual other than the target. You index based on muscle memory.

As you move out you make more reference to the sights until somewhere around 50 ft, you are making a hard focus on the front sight. As you go out, you slow down.

I used an extreme example to illustrate a point, but it doesn't change the fact that at likely defensive distances I am faster with irons and anyone who is reasonably skilled with irons will also require a fairly long transition period.

I failed to explain that I think this is partly because I'm 100% instinctive with irons and am not yet 100% instinctive with a dot. And yes, I do waste time over confirming.

A red dot for a carry gun, once the person is trained and transitioned is definitely superior. I guess my main point that I was trying to make, but didn't do very well at is that most people badly underestimate the amount of time it takes to gain instinctive proficiency with one.

I’ve been shooting for roughly 40 years. In that time I’ve shot everything from bulls-eye, to IDPA, to sporting clays with iron/brass sighted guns. I found pretty quickly that long range shots, where I’d normally have had a hard focus on the front sight, were easier and more accurate with a dot. Shoot, I put an early AimPoint on my dad's .22 pistol that he used in a local league, way back in 1985ish.

I also had difficulty shooting as quickly at defensive distances with it. I found I would get “fiddly” with it trying to get the perfect shot, when good enough would have been good enough and much faster.

With roughly 4500 rounds shot in relatively structured training environments, plus another 4000 or soon my own, I’m of the following opinion.

1. Eventually I will be better all around with the dot sight.
2. I am currently better served by an iron sighted defensive handgun because I am reasonably accurate and a good deal faster at LIKELY defensive distances.
3. Most people MASSIVELY underestimate the amount of shooting it will take to become more proficient (100% instinctive) with a dot sight than they are currently with iron sights.
4. If you don’t have instinctive proficiency with irons, then transition will take less time because you won’t have to get as much better before you are good with a dot sight.
5) One reason a dot sight is "harder" is that if you are inconsistent in your mount (like most shooters) then you will have to "find" the dot. If you are way off with irons, it's easy to see with your periphery how you need to correct. With all dots except for one, you have to waste time finding the dot.

The problem with the one sight that provides this kind of instinctive corrective feedback is that it's Chinese. And it's not just Chinese, but made by a Chinese company that also makes sights for the PLA and the CCP. That company is of course Holosun and their Vulcan reticle, which is only sold through Primary Arms. The Vulcan retical includes a huge circle reticle such that if the gun is crooked and the dot is outside your field of view, the circle of the Vulcan reticle IS visible, giving you instant feedback.

This seems like a minor thing. But I've run drills where people SEEMED proficient with a dot sight completely fell apart when they had to
1) shoot from behind cover
2) shoot from the ground (like if you were just attacked and find yourself on the ground)
3) strong or weak hand only.

All of a sudden their indexing was off. And it took them a long long time to get back on the dot.

So . . yes, it's long winded.

In summary. Dots are more accurate and possibly faster once you learn to use it properly. However even if you know how to use it properly, it needs to become 100% instinctive. Ot at least it needs to be as instinctive as irons, if you are new to shooting.

Nah.....it's not like that.


Your irons & dots for score on the clock really ought to be about the same. There is no change in anything other than what you're looking at, and if you're doing it right, you see POA, then the dot is superimposed, then trigger press, then view POA, super imposed, press. If it is your standard iron it is the same except your brain registers that the little green tube with the white ring around it, as the dot. You are NOT adjusting your eyes to a crisp focus of either at practical distances (unless the target size dictates that based on your abilities). Yes, your brain tracks them through the arc of recoil - one may get your attention better, but same platform - same arc. Split speed is about how fast your brain registers dot or FS back on POA. Hence, smash red.

 

[Detroit_1]

You guys can say whatever you want with your homemade, non-reproducible, non-documented "testing"

The fact of the matter is that it is very rare for anyone using a non-compensated iron sight pistol in a USPSA match to finish ahead of anyone of similar skill using a non-compensated pistol with optical sight.

True statement. Also a population that is heavily into gear as an advantage. If you took a B class or better shooter and let them reacquaint themselves with irons, I doubt they'd see a ton of difference. There'd be some, but not much. It's like a rack - they are picking a small POA, it registers that the FS / Dot is on that POA; trigger is pressed; the vision is already locked on to the next small POA and the sound from the hit is being registered at the same time; and because that is where they are looking, the gun naturally lines up on POA - b/c their grip and every other aspect of their mechanics is solid.

 

[Cascade Hemi]

The best training aid for iron sights is a red dot. If you're slower on the dot than irons you need to learn how to train with the dot. My Limited Division performance took a big step up when I started shooting Open Division. Going from a dot back to irons took very little practice and every metric with irons showed improvement.

 

[Cascade Hemi]

If I'm lying to you I'm lying to myself...

You nailed it. Delete the rest of your posts.

 

[SanPatHogger]

The best training aid for iron sights is a red dot. If you're slower on the dot than irons you need to learn how to train with the dot. My Limited Division performance took a big step up when I started shooting Open Division. Going from a dot back to irons took very little practice and every metric with irons showed improvement.

I noticed the same thing. Training with a red dot improves your pistol shooting.

 

[308pirate]

My range is in my backyard, the red dots are still sitting here as is the additional slide for my P320 that works with the red dot, the 2011 has always been setup to accept one.

You want to pay me for my time we can slap them back on and go run tests, fly on out, draw to first shot, draw to first shot on headboxes, accuracy testing and so on...

If I'm lying to you I'm lying to myself... There's no reason for me not to be running them if they were better for me, I already bought them, they are still here, I've got the $1500 in gear sitting here rotting away...

Is there a reason I'd be lying? Do you see it? Because I don't, I don't work in the industry, I'm not sponsored, I don't make money by not running red dots.

I run handguns because I carry a handgun, meaning my reason for owning them is strictly from a defense of life standpoint.

You think I'm risking my life using a materially worse product when I have the "better" product sitting 10ft away and ready to use?

You sound like the, "97% of scientists agree, humans are causing a global catastrophe, we are destroying the climate." Well look at that, all the "right" people are saying it, must be so and it must be so for everyone, everywhere, we've established "the" truth.

Get that coronavirus shot, safe and effective, all the "right" people say so, science is settled here bro, and for everyone.

What, you're allergic, fuck that, it's safe and effective, bro Ben Stoeger says so, do you know who he is, get the shot, can't be outliers, or perceived outliers, the right people are on our side.

By the way, never said don't use a red dot, go for it, just like I don't tell people they have to run a ported or comped gun, they have to carry appendix, they have to buy Toyota, be of a certain religion.

Do what's best for you, if my future testing shows the red dot right for me, they'll be on my guns, including my 500S&W, until then, irons.

Where you at? If you're close enough I'll shoot against you.

I'm in Ohio btw

 

[calling4life]

Shoot against me...

What are you talking about? This thread is about what results people have seen with red dots.

That's a personal question about personal results.

This isn't a thread about USPSA or competition in general and wasn't a question of us squaring off against each other.

You're arguing against a guy that literally just gave his asked for experience regarding how red dots worked out for him...

That's it, didn't claim I was a better USPSA shooter than you, didn't claim irons were better than red dots in some general fashion, just noted my particular experience.


I'm in Northern MN, and the testing would be me against me, that's what I tested, me with red dot vs me with irons, you know, the point of this thread, how did red dots change my accuracy and precision. It's me vs. me to know what's best for me. You seemed to want proof, the proof would be you coming here and watching me shoot my guns with red dots and then with irons. That wasn't meant to imply we were going to shoot against each other... why would it, that's not what this thread is about.

How you come to the conclusion that all of a sudden I need to run a match against you to determine if irons or red dots are more precise for me...

Not only that, he did ask specifically about precision, which you dismissed as not practical, which he also didn't ask.

Or maybe I missed something. I don't see that we're in the competition forum... thread title and OP didn't indicate competition specific anything. IDK

I think you guys are off your mark trashing on members like they have to live that competition life or they must be inadequate and ignorant.

Not all of us train to play a game, that isn't our motivation nor is it necessarily practical or wise to our end goal. You do, that's great and competition has its place but that doesn't need to be interjected into every conversation and imposed on everyone as God's law, because whether you're a grand blaster USPSA guy doesn't guarantee that you can perform in a defense of life situation.

Or, whatever other motivation a person here may have, it may simply be fun, and training as though competing for king of USPSA isn't a fun way to enjoy their shooting, to that person. They also don't need to be lectured by you.

And so on.

 

[stanley_white]

In conclusion, people have individual preferences and training and testing schemes that they like, and will continue to have them.

-Stan

 

[308pirate]

Shoot against me...

What are you talking about? This thread is about what results people have seen with red dots.

That's a personal question about personal results.

This isn't a thread about USPSA or competition in general and wasn't a question of us squaring off against each other.

You're arguing against a guy that literally just gave his asked for experience regarding how red dots worked out for him...

That's it, didn't claim I was a better USPSA shooter than you, didn't claim irons were better than red dots in some general fashion, just noted my particular experience.


I'm in Northern MN, and the testing would be me against me, that's what I tested, me with red dot vs me with irons, you know, the point of this thread, how did red dots change my accuracy and precision. It's me vs. me to know what's best for me. You seemed to want proof, the proof would be you coming here and watching me shoot my guns with red dots and then with irons. That wasn't meant to imply we were going to shoot against each other... why would it, that's not what this thread is about.

How you come to the conclusion that all of a sudden I need to run a match against you to determine if irons or red dots are more precise for me...

Not only that, he did ask specifically about precision, which you dismissed as not practical, which he also didn't ask.

Or maybe I missed something. I don't see that we're in the competition forum... thread title and OP didn't indicate competition specific anything. IDK

I think you guys are off your mark trashing on members like they have to live that competition life or they must be inadequate and ignorant.

Not all of us train to play a game, that isn't our motivation nor is it necessarily practical or wise to our end goal. You do, that's great and competition has its place but that doesn't need to be interjected into every conversation and imposed on everyone as God's law, because whether you're a grand blaster USPSA guy doesn't guarantee that you can perform in a defense of life situation.

Or, whatever other motivation a person here may have, it may simply be fun, and training as though competing for king of USPSA isn't a fun way to enjoy their shooting, to that person. They also don't need to be lectured by you.

And so on.

TLDR......nothing I said has anything to do with USPSA and everything to do with individual skill.

You tell on yourself with this

After months of running them I didn't find myself to be more accurate with them to 30yds, and I found my draw to first shot times to be a cunt hair slower sub 10yds, rest tended to equal out.

Only a person with abysmal shooting skills would not see and improvement in both speed and accuracy after MONTHS of using an RDS on a pistol.

LOL

 

[wpeach1912]

I added one last winter to my CZ. I haven’t shot any competitions with it, but I do notice it is much easier to shoot small animals with it. I shot like 4 armadillos and a grouse and I felt like I made more consistent first round hits at longer ranges compared to my iron sights

 

[calling4life]

TLDR......nothing I said has anything to do with USPSA and everything to do with individual skill.

You tell on yourself with this


Only a person with abysmal shooting skills would not see and improvement in both speed and accuracy after MONTHS of using an RDS on a pistol.

LOL

What's amusing is, you tell yourself that, and laugh.

But why...

If we who did not find benefit with red dots are so nothing... why oh why are you feeling the need to argue with what we found for ourselves?


We're abysmal shooters apparently.

It's a God complex and it's shown even there, because you'll say something like, "because I don't want others to think what you say is truth," as though you believe none of them could see it when you seem to think it's so obvious...

So God must even save all of them, those idiots reading our posts that won't see we are just abysmal shooters, and even though I noted my experience was my own.

It's my experience regarding myself, made clear, but surely they'd take it as gospel for all and you can't have that, right, God.

The God that isn't even top of shit in his own sport.

You bring that competition shit into everything, you post your stage videos, to show, it's seeps from your pores in what you say because you used it as a backing for it constantly... look, he's GOD, did he win that stage, well, we'll never know... did he win the match... who knows.

But listen to him, he knows.

God complex brother, nobody else can have a differing view, even when it's about them and their own life, it's your way or the wrong way.

And remember, you noted precision doesn't matter, GOD, but you jumped in on the thread anyway, to save all the MORONS that read this from themselves, because they can't see that.

Light the way brother, you got this, everyone else is the problem and you can do no wrong.

Everybody knows now and you've saved them. My experience regarding myself and what I saw was just because I am an abysmal shooter.

Which doesn't make it untrue... but hey, you still need to make a deal of it, because again, these idiots reading this aren't going to see it for themselves and they'll all go back to irons...

Top notch job brother, you found me out, mods can change my name to abysmal shooter.

You know, you've got some good information to share, if you learned to drop the ego, you know what I'm talking about because other people have pointed it out too.

There's value in some of the shit you have to say, but not in the way you always present yourself and your views, you also need to understand, you aren't perfect, and therefore you aren't always going to be right.

Now for something important:
Do you guys smack each other on the ass and say some encouraging shit when you score a perfect stage? Or is it more a cheeky dick slap sport?

Good luck

 

[oldrifleman]

Chirp, chirp, anyone else hear buzzing of fruit flies?

 

[atomic41]

more precise pistol shooter?

No.

It helps with some other things but precision, no.

 

[Detroit_1]

For fun - think your grip is pretty consistent? Put your PVS14 on, run at normal COF speed, and fuse the two images off the draw (see POA w/ NV with non dominate NOD eye, see a 'red' dot with your dominate eye, fuse them and make the hits). I had not done that in a while until last night. I think I'll be doing more of that. There are no lies in the dark.

 

[theLBC]

for short distances it doesn't help me with speed or accuracy, but it does help these old eyes if i am trying to shoot a small group at 25yds.

 

[Detroit_1]

The advantage of the dot is the stark 'brain grabbing' contrast they create.

IMHO.


Best of luck to all.

 

[Hickswr]

Recently put a 2MOA dot on 22lr pistol.

Way more accurate with it now, especially at targets 35 yards and out.

I think the dot being much smaller than a front sight contributes to the enhanced accuracy. I have a 8”x11” plate at 85 yards that I can go 50% on with the dot. Without the dot I’d be lucky to hit it one out of 10.

I can shoot much smaller groups with the dot at any distance than using irons.

 

[308pirate]

For fun - think your grip is pretty consistent? Put your PVS14 on, run at normal COF speed, and fuse the two images off the draw (see POA w/ NV with non dominate NOD eye, see a 'red' dot with your dominate eye, fuse them and make the hits). I had not done that in a while until last night. I think I'll be doing more of that. There are no lies in the dark.

It's even simpler. Cover the front of the RDS with tape.

You'll find out immediately how good both your index and your target focus is.

 

[308pirate]

What's amusing is, you tell yourself that, and laugh.

But why...

If we who did not find benefit with red dots are so nothing... why oh why are you feeling the need to argue with what we found for ourselves?


We're abysmal shooters apparently.

It's a God complex and it's shown even there, because you'll say something like, "because I don't want others to think what you say is truth," as though you believe none of them could see it when you seem to think it's so obvious...

So God must even save all of them, those idiots reading our posts that won't see we are just abysmal shooters, and even though I noted my experience was my own.

It's my experience regarding myself, made clear, but surely they'd take it as gospel for all and you can't have that, right, God.

The God that isn't even top of shit in his own sport.

You bring that competition shit into everything, you post your stage videos, to show, it's seeps from your pores in what you say because you used it as a backing for it constantly... look, he's GOD, did he win that stage, well, we'll never know... did he win the match... who knows.

But listen to him, he knows.

God complex brother, nobody else can have a differing view, even when it's about them and their own life, it's your way or the wrong way.

And remember, you noted precision doesn't matter, GOD, but you jumped in on the thread anyway, to save all the MORONS that read this from themselves, because they can't see that.

Light the way brother, you got this, everyone else is the problem and you can do no wrong.

Everybody knows now and you've saved them. My experience regarding myself and what I saw was just because I am an abysmal shooter.

Which doesn't make it untrue... but hey, you still need to make a deal of it, because again, these idiots reading this aren't going to see it for themselves and they'll all go back to irons...

Top notch job brother, you found me out, mods can change my name to abysmal shooter.

You know, you've got some good information to share, if you learned to drop the ego, you know what I'm talking about because other people have pointed it out too.

There's value in some of the shit you have to say, but not in the way you always present yourself and your views, you also need to understand, you aren't perfect, and therefore you aren't always going to be right.

Now for something important:
Do you guys smack each other on the ass and say some encouraging shit when you score a perfect stage? Or is it more a cheeky dick slap sport?

Good luck

Once again you spent a month with a red dot and still couldn't figure it out.

Deflect all you want you still suck with a pistol.