Fieldcraft Hathcock II, Carlos; G/Sgt. Marines

[Sean the Nailer]

[h=4][/h] In these “Person Specific” threads, I am asking for a sharing of information regarding teachings, accomplishments, anecdotes, first-hand-experiences, and the like. Simply pertaining to the individual named in the title. I intend for a separate thread for each separate person, and in no way is this to turn into anything other than respectful and pertinent statements and stories about the shooter. If you want to talk about someone not named in a thread, PM me and I’ll start another. At the same time, disparaging comments, wrong remarks and the like, WILL be removed. This is intended to turn into a compendium of information of each marksman, because not everything is published, nor has everything been disclosed that has since been “unclassified”. Ya’ll know right from wrong, so let’s all make these threads GREAT. If we are lucky, the possibility exists for “those who are still alive” to add in their two cents. THAT luxury is not afforded very often. Hence why I want this to be kept “on point”. Thank you. Last edited 11/22/2014 8:56 PM by theNailer
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theNailer Gunny Sergeant Rating: 3.3/5 this site 971 posts this site	Nominate | Report Posted: 11/22/2014 8:56 PM [h=4]Re: Hathcock, Carlos; G/Sgt. Marines[/h] I know that I am NOT the one to come in here and pretend to teach. There are so many here who can, and do. But for the topic of teaching, I am understanding that this gentleman essentially wrote the curriculum that is taught in the schools yet today. And he based his lessons on actual experience in the field. His book Marine Sniper, then another called Silent Warrior are only a glimpse into the man he was.
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BigGunBrian Sergeant Rating: 3.0/5 this site 116 posts this site Ignore this Member Send Private Message	Nominate | Report Posted: 11/26/2014 6:33 PM [h=4]Re: Hathcock, Carlos; G/Sgt. Marines[/h] The Hathcock Legend surprises me sometimes . . . . I worked with a retired SEAL who relays the following: In the latter half of the 1990s, Sgt Hatcock is retired and somewhat ill. Still, he disarmed and entire Team of Navy Seals. It seems he showed up at the Naval Base to meet an old friend and they started talking. The SEALs started listening. At the end, he had the entire team "staring up at him, leaning on every word, like a bunch of three year olds in front of Santa. It was disgusting--but I was right there with, em". He says that he learned a lot that day--especially about reading wind. BMT
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theNailer Gunny Sergeant Rating: 3.3/5 this site 971 posts this site	Nominate | Report Posted: 1/30/2015 5:46 PM [h=4]Re: Hathcock II, Carlos; G/Sgt. Marines[/h] THIS ARTICLE was just re-published in the Virginia Pilot. By all means, if anyone has any other stories pertinent to share, then sound-off.
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SHLowlight HMFIC/Commandant Rating: 4.0/5 this site 4002 posts this site Ignore this Member Send Private Message	Nominate | Report Posted: 2/2/2015 9:55 PM [h=4]Re: Hathcock II, Carlos; G/Sgt. Marines (2 votes)[/h] I went to Sniper School in the Fall of 86, and as customary, the school brought Gunny Hathcock down for a of night drinks and then to hand out awards at graduation. Part of hanging out you get a bit of insight into what was really going on back then. This was the time his book was first being released so we all got a copy and Gunny Signed them to us. (I also have his signature on my Scout Sniper School Diploma) Just like many of the controversies today, with claims of inaccuracies regarding specific events, much of what was written was done so well after the fact. That tends to cloud the situation as well, in the constant retelling of tales, you start to take on elements of what others remember about that time and adding it to your story. First understand, Land was looking to get the USMC to formalize sniping and they wanted to create the Sniper School as we see today. Back in the day, many were set up make shift, they were short courses, (two weeks or less) took place in-country or at half way places consistent with pre-deployment work. Nothing was really consistent. It was based on whoever they deemed in charge at the time. Then once the wars were over, these schools were disbanded. So in order to "Sell" the USMC on the idea of a permanent Sniper School and the merits of having full time snipers, certain tales were told to make things seem better than they might have really been. Exaggerated for positive effect is a good way to say it. Not necessarily lying but used to sell a concept to someone with no clue. When I went to school, which was shortly after it was formed, the doctrine was very Vietnam, very Soviet centric. It was designed around the last war which was better than 10 years past, and they were still working off that play book because it literally took them that long to get it going. We were still very much Cold Warriors, so they did insert a lot of Anti Soviet tactics into the training as they figured by most accounts anyone on the wrong side of the line would be using Soviet doctrine. At the time our schooling was 12 weeks vs the Army who was doing 3 weeks. (My unit even attended 2 of the 3 weeks with the Army at Camp Casey in Korea.) When all this changed was shortly after I graduated SS. The USMC was creating the first SOC, (Special Operations Capable) we were a MAU (SOC) which 1/2 way through became a MEU (SOC) and much of the training was changing. During my deployment with the MAU / MEU the Gulf was flaring up with at the height of the Iran / Iraq War. I was on the Guadalcanal which was being loaded with MineSweeping Helicopters at which point we were removed. (Left hanging at Diego Garcia only to be flown back to Lejeune) The rest of the float was still in the Med and we branded the SOC as "Spread over Continents" as our unit was split up. Once back at Lejeune, they created MAGTF 2-88 which I became part of. Here we began using real time intel to plan our training. Big shift in doctrine. We were looking at everything and planning our weekly training around what we saw. Ship Assault drills, Oil Platforms, repelling swamp attacks from small Iranian Speed boats, everything that was happening that week. Sniper became assaulters or put in helicopters to act as an aerial overwatch. Still we practiced a lot of what we learned just off the ships. The slow methodical lessons passed down from Gunny Hathcock were becoming more and more dynamic. It was no longer about taking 4 hours to move 200 yards, it was about fast roping and speeding into position. You still would need to be in your "Bubble' but first you had to haul ass to get there. Maneuvering the structures with a long gun was not as easy. Especially fast. It was get in, get it done, get out... at our best we dropped a stick of about 17 Marines on a moving ship via Fast Rope in about 21 seconds. In the beginning we bounced off a lot of steel, but soon we had it down to a science. We could fast rope in, SPIE rig out in very short order. (Fast Forward) When training guys during the height the wars, we saw the same thing. Very few (But there were a couple) slow and methodical lessons. Everything was about getting on target as fast as possible and then working without a spotter. That is where a lot of the reticle holds came into play. Get straight back and spot your own shots, and suddenly you can put two guys on guns instead of one. Imagine this scenario: Two guys on guns both communicating, first guy shoots, and before the bolt is even touched the second shooter corrects and follows up. Milliseconds on target. First guy can reload while the second guys' shot is impacting on target. Fast and effect use of skill. It's not longer, one guy spots and calls everything with the second guy being a trigger monkey. Both are equally skilled and learning much faster because they both have trigger time, seeing the results and absorbing the skills. If you're dependent on the Spotter to tell you what happened, it's a lot harder to learn what to do. The Gunny stories were good, the patience and methods they perfected in the Jungles of Vietnam will all be repeated. But when you're working a different war, operating in a different time, it pays to adapt. Last edited 2/3/2015 1:20 AM by SHLowlight
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dondlhmn Gunny Sergeant Rating: 3.0/5 this site 631 posts this site Ignore this Member Send Private Message	Nominate | Report Posted: 2/7/2015 5:05 PM [h=4]Re: Hathcock II, Carlos; G/Sgt. Marines[/h] SHLowlight wrote: I went to Sniper School in the Fall of 86, and as customary, the school brought Gunny Hathcock down for a of night drinks and then to hand out awards at graduation. Part of hanging out you get a bit of insight into what was really going on back then. This was the time his book was first being released so we all got a copy and Gunny Signed them to us. (I also have his signature on my Scout Sniper School Diploma) Just like many of the controversies today, with claims of inaccuracies regarding specific events, much of what was written was done so well after the fact. That tends to cloud the situation as well, in the constant retelling of tales, you start to take on elements of what others remember about that time and adding it to your story. First understand, Land was looking to get the USMC to formalize sniping and they wanted to create the Sniper School as we see today. Back in the day, many were set up make shift, they were short courses, (two weeks or less) took place in-country or at half way places consistent with pre-deployment work. Nothing was really consistent. It was based on whoever they deemed in charge at the time. Then once the wars were over, these schools were disbanded. So in order to "Sell" the USMC on the idea of a permanent Sniper School and the merits of having full time snipers, certain tales were told to make things seem better than they might have really been. Exaggerated for positive effect is a good way to say it. Not necessarily lying but used to sell a concept to someone with no clue. When I went to school, which was shortly after it was formed, the doctrine was very Vietnam, very Soviet centric. It was designed around the last war which was better than 10 years past, and they were still working off that play book because it literally took them that long to get it going. We were still very much Cold Warriors, so they did insert a lot of Anti Soviet tactics into the training as they figured by most accounts anyone on the wrong side of the line would be using Soviet doctrine. At the time our schooling was 12 weeks vs the Army who was doing 3 weeks. (My unit even attended 2 of the 3 weeks with the Army at Camp Casey in Korea.) When all this changed was shortly after I graduated SS. The USMC was creating the first SOC, (Special Operations Capable) we were a MAU (SOC) which 1/2 way through became a MEU (SOC) and much of the training was changing. During my deployment with the MAU / MEU the Gulf was flaring up with at the height of the Iran / Iraq War. I was on the Guadalcanal which was being loaded with MineSweeping Helicopters at which point we were removed. (Left hanging at Diego Garcia only to be flown back to Lejeune) The rest of the float was still in the Med and we branded the SOC as "Spread over Continents" as our unit was split up. Once back at Lejeune, they created MAGTF 2-88 which I became part of. Here we began using real time intel to plan our training. Big shift in doctrine. We were looking at everything and planning our weekly training around what we saw. Ship Assault drills, Oil Platforms, repelling swamp attacks from small Iranian Speed boats, everything that was happening that week. Sniper became assaulters or put in helicopters to act as an aerial overwatch. Still we practiced a lot of what we learned just off the ships. The slow methodical lessons passed down from Gunny Hathcock were becoming more and more dynamic. It was no longer about taking 4 hours to move 200 yards, it was about fast roping and speeding into position. You still would need to be in your "Bubble' but first you had to haul ass to get there. Maneuvering the structures with a long gun was not as easy. Especially fast. It was get in, get it done, get out... at our best we dropped a stick of about 17 Marines on a moving ship via Fast Rope in about 21 seconds. In the beginning we bounced off a lot of steel, but soon we had it down to a science. We could fast rope in, SPIE rig out in very short order. (Fast Forward) When training guys during the height the wars, we saw the same thing. Very few (But there were a couple) slow and methodical lessons. Everything was about getting on target as fast as possible and then working without a spotter. That is where a lot of the reticle holds came into play. Get straight back and spot your own shots, and suddenly you can put two guys on guns instead of one. Imagine this scenario: Two guys on guns both communicating, first guy shoots, and before the bolt is even touched the second shooter corrects and follows up. Milliseconds on target. First guy can reload while the second guys' shot is impacting on target. Fast and effect use of skill. It's not longer, one guy spots and calls everything with the second guy being a trigger monkey. Both are equally skilled and learning much faster because they both have trigger time, seeing the results and absorbing the skills. If you're dependent on the Spotter to tell you what happened, it's a lot harder to learn what to do. The Gunny stories were good, the patience and methods they perfected in the Jungles of Vietnam will all be repeated. But when you're working a different war, operating in a different time, it pays to adapt. ​ Yes...adapt or LOSE! You GOTTA stay ahead of the enemy in as many ways as possible. One problem pretty much all US forces Branches have had over the years is that they all tended to prepare for the last war....sometime they prepared for the next one, but most of what they taught and/or practiced was based upon the last one. Learning from CURRENT scenarios is a good thing and a good thing upon which to base training and also doctrine shifts.
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Fuzynuts Corporal Rating: 2.9/5 this site 96 posts this site Ignore this Member Send Private Message	Nominate | Report Posted: 5/21/2016 5:36 PM [h=4]Re: Hathcock II, Carlos; G/Sgt. Marines[/h] I thought this was a tribute to Carlos Hathcock?
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DungBeetle11b Private Rating: 3.0/5 this site 20 posts this site Ignore this Member Send Private Message	Nominate | Report Posted: 12/2/2016 10:48 AM [h=4]Re: Hathcock II, Carlos; G/Sgt. Marines[/h] Wimbleton Cup Winner 1965 LCPL Carlos N. Hathcock, USMC 100-17V https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wimbledon_Cup Check out the book "Marine Sniper:93 Confirmed Kills" Good read. Actually, I have been reading it for the second time. Last edited 12/2/2016 11:06 AM by DungBeetle11b
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HOG0321 Private Rating: 3.1/5 this site 38 posts this site Ignore this Member Send Private Message	Nominate | Report Posted: 12/14/2016 9:34 AM [h=4]Re: Hathcock II, Carlos; G/Sgt. Marines[/h] Carlos Hathcock was the founder of Marine Scout Sniper School Hawaii. I graduated from the last class before it shut down a few years ago. It's pretty sad that the school house he started is no longer up and running.

 

[Sean the Nailer]

.

An American hero can be a complex beast. In some cases the title is controversial, particularly when it comes to military service.

Carlos Hathcock is one of those heroes. He served his country with distinction during the Vietnam War (1955 – 75) across 2 tours. Yet he did that as a sniper, a role which had a controversial reputation even among military ranks.

A 1987 profile in The Washington Post sums up the attitude, writing that the sniper was “an affront to the Gary Cooper mentality, the idea that in ‘High Noon’ — or America — the sheriff never draws first.”

Carlos Hathcock

“Hathcock, who had done everything asked of him and more, felt unfairly stigmatized. ‘I was simply doing my job,’ he says. ‘I was just doing what they told me to do. Maybe being a sniper is something that only another sniper really can understand.’”

By the time he came home for good — and still a young man at 27 — he had 93 confirmed kills under his belt, with many more unverified. His marksmanship was beyond doubt, and in some respects Hathcock sounded like something out of a movie.

Brothers Carlos and Billy Jack Hathcock with their grandmothers. Photo by USMC Archives CC BY 2.0

 

[Sean the Nailer]

For example he used to stick a bright white feather in his hat, throwing down the gauntlet to his enemy and daring them to catch him out. Through this he got the nickname “White Feather,” though his legend was built on more than a moniker.

Possibly the most famous incident of his career involved Apache, the notorious female platoon leader of the Viet Cong, who would not only kill Marines but brutally torture them. When she tortured a Marine Private within Hathcock’s earshot, and he encountered what was left of her still-living victim, her fate was sealed.

Hathcock Brothers and Friend, 1958 Photo by USMC Archives CC BY 2.0

“ ‘We were in the midst of switching rifles. We saw them,’ he remembered. ‘I saw a group coming, five of them. I saw her squat to pee, that’s how I knew it was her. They tried to get her to stop, but she didn’t stop. I stopped her. I put one extra in her for good measure.’”

Carlos Hathcock, April 1945 Photo by USMC Archives CC BY 2.0

For Hathcock, using a gun was a long-established instinct. Born in Arkansas, in 1942, he’d lived a rural life, where hunting and shooting were part of human survival.

The Post explains that “Hathcock came from the traditional American frontier mold. The war required just the shooting and woodcraft skills that Hathcock possessed. There were times, in fact, when Hathcock wondered if he wasn’t born for one purpose: to fight in Vietnam.”

Despite this, killing Apache was a turning point in the skilled assassin’s life. He spoke about it as the one time he enjoyed shooting someone. Hathcock liked the hunt, but wasn’t someone who wanted to end a life. That time it was different, and the experience disturbed him.

Carlos Hathcock, 1968 Photo by USMC Archives CC BY 2.0

 

[Sean the Nailer]

Quoted in the Post, he said “It was the stalk that I enjoyed. Pitting yourself against another human being. There was no second place in Vietnam — second place was a body bag.”

The Apache mission was one sign that cracks were showing in Hathcock’s hardened exterior. He was highly respected for his devotion to duty, which he never shied away from. His performance had been exemplary and he would always put his neck on the line.

Carlos and Josephine Hathcock, 10 November 1962 Photo by USMC Archives CC BY 2.0

However when Hathcock became the target of a $30,000 bounty in reprisal for Apache’s death, the pressure really piled on. This led to an extraordinary situation where he shot a hopeful assassin through his own rifle scope at a range of 500 yards.

Cracked.com writes “Bear in mind that the typical rifle scope is only a couple of inches wide at the very most, so Hathcock had to place his shot perfectly for the bullet to pass through it and not hit the sides of the device. Also, the enemy sniper had to have been facing him, with his gun more or less leveled directly toward Hathcock’s position.

Platoon 232, San Diego, 1959 Photo by USMC Archives CC BY 2.0

So, in the span of the half-second he had to spare before his foe spotted him and erased him from time, Hathcock fired a round through a 2-inch circle he wasn’t even positive was there, draped in dense jungle about three city blocks away.”

The tension didn’t let up. Hathcock also performed incredible feats of endurance in order to kill a Viet Cong general toward the close of his first tour. This saw him hunkering down and going without food for days. He also avoided deadly snakes as well as his human enemies.

Carlos Hathcock Collection at the Archives Branch, Marine Corps History Division Photo by USMC Archives CC-BY 2.0

He was discharged from the army in 1967. Hathcock couldn’t adjust to civilian life and returned to the Marines only a week after. His career ended as dramatically as it had begun, when the vehicle he was riding in went over a mine. He rescued 7 of his men and suffered significant burns.

1969 saw him back on home soil, where he got work as a gunnery sergeant aboard a submarine. However, by 1975, his lack of mobility was noticed. This had been put down to wounds sustained in combat but the cause was officially diagnosed as multiple sclerosis.

 

[Sean the Nailer]

Carlos Hathcock, 1959 Photo by USMC Archives CC BY 2.0

Though Hathcock’s skills were coveted, he couldn’t cope with the physical and psychological demands.

The Post writes, “In April 1979, he collapsed while teaching at the rifle range. When he awoke in an emergency room, Hathcock discovered that he couldn’t move his left foot and was losing feeling in both arms.

He was forced to retire. He had served 19 years, 10 months and five days and was bitterly disappointed that he hadn’t made 20 years, the goal he had set as a teenager.” Falling just short of the 20 year “qualifying service” mark meant he wasn’t entitled to military benefits.

Trophy Presentation, 18 March 1977 Photo by USMC Archives CC BY 2.0

Hathcock’s story could have had a truly sad conclusion were it not for a friend of his at a local bait shop. He brought the former soldier out of his shell, and Carlos found peace of a kind in shark fishing.

He passed away in 1999 but never lost touch with his former life. In later years he was hired by the Norfolk Police Emergency Response Team to train their officers how to be snipers.

“Them is good boys,” he told the Post. “Good boys, but I’ll never tell them that, not in a cat’s hair, because they will stop getting better.”

That summed up Carlos Hathcock in a nutshell. Someone who did what he thought needed to be done, to the best of his ability and beyond, without much thanks or recognition.

------This is what I've found, elsewhere, and copied/pasted here. The last statement made by the author I won't put here, as it is inappropriate. The comments made by some (elsewhere) are reprehensible.