Have a CHL for Gun Purchase? No Problem but Wait a Minute...

[Longshot231]

So if they run a background check on you AFTER you purchased the firearm with your CHL; they will find out what? That you would have passed a background check anyway.

The real purpose of this initiative is to find any number (regardless of the very few) people who might have had disqualifying criteria but still retained a CHL. That number will be magnified to millennial proportions to do away with CHL in lieu of NICS for gun purchases.

New Leaks Shows ATF Running Background Checks On Gun Buyers Retroactively

AmmoLand News learned through a leaked Bureau of ATF conference call that the agency is starting to run gun buyers retroactively.

www.ammoland.com

 

[clcustom1911]

Correct. They're gonna use this as a back door. But this is going to do absolutely jack shit for private transfers. Only CHL's through dealers will pop up.

 

[fdkay]

Just because you possess the card, does not mean that you aren't prohibited from owning a weapon.
To the best of my knowledge, there is no mechanism in place for a peace officer to seize CHL when an arrest is made on a charge that would likely result in rescinding the CHL or result in bond conditions where possession of a firearm is restricted.

I'll give you an example:
Billy-Bob and his wife are at a BBQ. Billy-Bob has been drinking and is angered over something and decides to beat the shit out of his wife, Mary-Sue. Mary-Sue is so badly injured, that she requires hospitalization and the crime, besides being an act of Domestic Violence, which runs afoul of Federal law, is also a State felony level offense.
Bond conditions set require that Billy-Bob surrender his forearms and further restrict him from possessing a firearm.
In order to avoid another arrest, Billy-Bob surrenders his firearms.
Billy-Bob then goes to the LGS and purchases a new firearm, using his CHL, which wasn't seized.
Now, they may also demand surrender of his license if they think about it, but otherwise, you are waiting for a government bureaucracy to complete paperwork and mail it to you, demanding that you send it back.

I had a CHL many years ago, I was NEVER under the impression that a background check wasn't completed, I was just able to bypass waiting in the store.

 

[rangerlong]

When the judge issues the order to surrender your firearms they’re going to order you to surrender your CHL as well.
Like anything else someone could make a mistake and it could fall through the cracks though.
There must be some lag time for the NICS DB to get updated anyway. If Billy Bob was to leave his court proceeding and go straight to the nearest LGS he could probably beat court clerks filing the paperwork with NICS.

When you buy a firearm with your CHL, at least in TX, the FFL doesn’t call NICS at all.
I saw a guy with a CHL get put on a NICS hold one time when he didn’t give the FFL his CHL and they called NICS. Not sure if it was a coincidence, or if NICS has CHL holders flagged to avoid my scenario above.

 

[fdkay]

When the judge issues the order to surrender your firearms they’re going to order you to surrender your CHL as well.
Like anything else someone could make a mistake and it could fall through the cracks though.
There must be some lag time for the NICS DB to get updated anyway. If Billy Bob was to leave his court proceeding and go straight to the nearest LGS he could probably beat court clerks filing the paperwork with NICS.

When you buy a firearm with your CHL, at least in TX, the FFL doesn’t call NICS at all.
I saw a guy with a CHL get put on a NICS hold one time when he didn’t give the FFL his CHL and they called NICS. Not sure if it was a coincidence, or if NICS has CHL holders flagged to avoid my scenario above.

If Billi-Bob is magistrated by a small town Muni-Court judge, they likely won't even think about the CHL, but, if he doesn't possess it at the time of arrest, he can always use it to buy another gun before he surrenders it.
They will, however, issue an Emergency Protective Order, but that is normally only for a period of 31-91 days. If a weapon is involved, a mandatory minimum of 61 days.
When Billy-Bob is processed and printed on live-scan his arrest will almost immediately reflect in NCIC, which would cause a denial.

 

[Longshot231]

I think that the seizure or surrender of a CHL depends on the state and/or court having jurisdiction.

 

[fdkay]

I think that the seizure or surrender of a CHL depends on the state and/or court having jurisdiction.

Yeah, I don't want to get too deep into the weeds on it.
I was just trying to give an example of WHY they still do a background check.

 

[Snuby642]

If Billi-Bob is magistrated by a small town Muni-Court judge, they likely won't even think about the CHL, but, if he doesn't possess it at the time of arrest, he can always use it to buy another gun before he surrenders it.
They will, however, issue an Emergency Protective Order, but that is normally only for a period of 31-91 days. If a weapon is involved, a mandatory minimum of 61 days.
When Billy-Bob is processed and printed on live-scan his arrest will almost immediately reflect in NCIC, which would cause a denial.

That's not how it works .

A conviction disqualifies gun purchases.

Some liberal da's want to drop charges in return for surrendering a chl / ltc normally because they know they will not win the case.

They will drag it out and the lawyer keeps getting paid. They are not doing you a favor.

 

[fdkay]

That's not how it works .

A conviction disqualifies gun purchases.

Some liberal da's want to drop charges in return for surrendering a chl / ltc normally because they know they will not win the case.

They will drag it out and the lawyer keeps getting paid. They are not doing you a favor.

True, a conviction does disqualify gun purchases, however, EPO's prohibit the possession of a firearm for the duration of the EPO.
Bond conditions can prohibit the possession until adjudication.
I'm reasonably certain that a felony arrest for domestic violence would result in a denial, which can be appealed.

 

[rangerlong]

Yeah, I don't want to get too deep into the weeds on it.
I was just trying to give an example of WHY they still do a background check.

They do not “still do” a background check post sale. Your CHL makes you exempt.
And logically, why would they let you walk out the door with a gun and then do a background check?
If FFLs were doing them post sale, the ATF would have no reason to do tgem post sale as the article alleges.

 

[ChristianSilver]

I have a friend who was charged with DV here in Texas. More verbal than physical, grabbed spouses arm and left a bruise.
She didn’t file charges when sheriff’s arrived. The State of Texas filed, charged, convicted and probation for 2 years. Going to be 5 years before he can obtain another CHL. His firearms were not taken, they are still together.
He is pissed and blames her, I blame him.
Nothing to play around with, I’m sure the DV charges red flags on 4473 checks.

 

[fdkay]

They do not “still do” a background check post sale. Your CHL makes you exempt.
And logically, why would they let you walk out the door with a gun and then do a background check?
If FFLs were doing them post sale, the ATF would have no reason to do tgem post sale as the article alleges.

Well, according to the article the OP listed, they do, in fact, still conduct a background check.
I'm not saying it is right, I'm not, however, surprised.
You are nit-picking on my wording,
My initial post was to demonstrate how a prohibited person might still purchase a firearm by using a CHL.
Then, it naturally devolved into this.
You are asking "logically", wtf does that have to do with the federal Government, and in particular, the ATF?
They do what they want to do.

 

[rangerlong]

Well, according to the article the OP listed, they do, in fact, still conduct a background check.
I'm not saying it is right, I'm not, however, surprised.
You are nit-picking on my wording,
My initial post was to demonstrate how a prohibited person might still purchase a firearm by using a CHL.
Then, in naturally devolved into this.
You are asking "logically", wtf does that have to do with the federal Government, and in particular, the ATF?
They do what they want to do.

The article says the ATF is doing background checks after the fact.
You said FFLs are doing the background checks after the fact. They are not.

The ATF may not be logical but private businesses often are. Doing BG checks after the sale would be a waste of labor. The gun is gone and there is no requirement for them to spend time doing them.
They also don’t want to know if there is an edge case where a CHL holder is denied. Imagine that hassle…

 

[fdkay]

The article says the ATF is doing background checks after the fact.
You said FFLs are doing the background checks after the fact. They are not.

The ATF may not be logical but private businesses often are. Doing BG checks after the sale would be a waste of labor. The gun is gone and there is no requirement for them to spend time doing them.
They also don’t want to know if there is an edge case where a CHL holder is denied. Imagine that hassle…

I did?
Please point out where, and I'll happily edit it, because that wasn't my intent.
After all, FFL's DO NOT conduct background checks. They call in or submit the info online and the background check is conducted by a government representative.
Again, for some reason you want to argue this.
I was merely trying to give an example of how a prohibited person might use a CHL to purchase a firearm.
is it a perfect example? No.
For fucks sake.

 

[Snuby642]

Once the ffl meets the legal requirements there is no use going further. Why would they?

If they thought something was wrong they should have refused the sale first time.

If the atf is running out of cases on real criminals and want's to go over old sales, bless thier hearts.

 

[rangerlong]

I had a CHL many years ago, I was NEVER under the impression that a background check wasn't completed, I was just able to bypass waiting in the store.

Here’s where you said it. Post #3.
But since you don’t think FFLs do background checks, maybe that’s not what you meant.

However, FFLs absolutely do background checks…that’s the whole point of FFLs.

 

[THEIS]

Here’s where you said it. Post #3.
But since you don’t think FFLs do background checks, maybe that’s not what you meant.

However, FFLs absolutely do background checks…that’s the whole point of FFLs.

Hi,

Well technically the FFL does NOT do the background check!!!
They submit the provided information for other agency to do the actual background check.

I can assure you that the point of my multiple FFLs is NOT to do background checks.....period.

1 is to legally manufacturer firearms.
1 is to legally facilitate the transfer of ownership of firearms.
NONE are to conduct background checks.

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[fdkay]

Here’s where you said it. Post #3.
But since you don’t think FFLs do background checks, maybe that’s not what you meant.

However, FFLs absolutely do background checks…that’s the whole point of FFLs.

Well, it is obvious you have a reading comprehension issue.
Nowhere in that quote did I say that an FFL conducted a background check.
You do realize that a background check uses NCIC data right?
Being the apparently learned individual that you are, you would also realize that NCIC data is restricted.
Here is a quote from the feds, I've highlighted the applicable portion:
NICS Process

When a person tries to buy a firearm, the seller, known as a Federal Firearms Licensee (FFL), contacts NICS electronically or by phone. The prospective buyer fills out the ATF form, and the FFL relays that information to the NICS. The NICS staff performs a background check on the buyer. That background check verifies the buyer does not have a criminal record or isn't otherwise ineligible to purchase or own a firearm. Since launching in 1998, more than 300 million checks have been done, leading to more than 1.5 million denials.

That is why they can't tell why is was denied, because they don't know.
It is either a thumbs up or a thumbs down.

 

[rangerlong]

Now we’re picking nits.

I understand the FFL doesn’t have a login to the NICS system and doesn’t actually type in your name and press enter.

The FFL is still the one initiating, and responsible for the background check getting done. They’re doing the background check.

And it’s still true that until the ATF started doing them after the sale (per the article) there was no background check done for sales to CHL holders in TX.

 

[ChristianSilver]

FIREARM PROHIBITIONS FOR DOMESTIC VIOLENCE MISDEMEANOR CONVICTIONS
Texas prohibits people convicted of some domestic violence misdemeanors from possessing firearms for five years following their release from confinement or community supervision.1 This restriction generally applies to people convicted of Class A misdemeanor assault for “intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly caus[ing] bodily injury” to a member of their family or household.2 For these purposes, the term “family” includes people related by blood or affinity,3 as well as former spouses, individuals who are the parents of the same child, and foster children or foster parents.4 The term “household” member includes people who currently or formerly lived together in the same dwelling.5
There are notable gaps in this law: for instance, Texas’s firearm prohibition generally does not apply to people convicted of violent assaults against a current or former dating partner, unless the defendant has been married or lived with the victim; and it does not apply to people convicted of threatening a family or household member with imminent violent injury. Additionally, people convicted of qualifying domestic violence misdemeanors are only prohibited from accessing firearms for five years after their release from confinement or community supervision. A much broader federal law generally permanently prohibits people convicted of domestic violence misdemeanors from possessing firearms after conviction.
Texas law requires peace officers and courts to provide specified notices to people cited and convicted of misdemeanors involving family violence that they may be prohibited from accessing firearms under state or federal law

 

[Shooter McGavin]

Texas has a system for the FFL to check to make sure your LTC is in good standing. When you hand your LTC over to them they can check the number in the system. If your LTC is not in good standing, they will run a back ground check with NICS.

 

[fdkay]

Now we’re picking nits.

I understand the FFL doesn’t have a login to the NICS system and doesn’t actually type in your name and press enter.

The FFL is still the one initiating, and responsible for the background check getting done. They’re doing the background check.

And it’s still true that until the ATF started doing them after the sale (per the article) there was no background check done for sales to CHL holders in TX.

No.
You were the one insisting I said something that I did not.
The FFL is NOT conducting a background check, the NICS clerk is doing that.
That is like saying the receptionist at the hospital performed your surgery.
Now, we can argue semantics all day long, but, it is merely an interpretation.
I never said I assumed the store conducted a check after I left, I said I assumed one was conducted.
Again, you read one thing, while I meant another.
Still, why the fuck are you insisting on arguing about this.
Again, my post was to point out how a prohibited person could use a CHL to buy a firearm, I also happened to mention that I did use a CHL to purchase firearms, but always assumed there was a check done later.
That would be an ATF thing.

 

[rangerlong]

No.
You were the one insisting I said something that I did not.
The FFL is NOT conducting a background check, the NICS clerk is doing that.
That is like saying the receptionist at the hospital performed your surgery.
Now, we can argue semantics all day long, but, it is merely an interpretation.
I never said I assumed the store conducted a check after I left, I said I assumed one was conducted.
Again, you read one thing, while I meant another.
Still, why the fuck are you insisting on arguing about this.
Again, my post was to point out how a prohibited person could use a CHL to buy a firearm, I also happened to mention that I did use a CHL to purchase firearms, but always assumed there was a check done later.
That would be an ATF thing.

K, you win the internet today. Have a good one bud.

 

[Choid]

How does the NICs clerk know that the purchase has occurred? Has the article explained that, because as far as I know, the 4473 just goes into a file and sits there.

 

[MtnCreek]

How does the NICs clerk know that the purchase has occurred? Has the article explained that, because as far as I know, the 4473 just goes into a file and sits there.

According to the article the info is collected by atf inspectors.

 

[Snuby642]

The ffl initiates the background check.

 

[Longshot231]

How does the NICs clerk know that the purchase has occurred? Has the article explained that, because as far as I know, the 4473 just goes into a file and sits there.

That's a good question. When I read it, I took the article at face value. Besides, after the NICS check, by law, the ATF is not supposed to keep a record of the buyer having ever purchased a firearm. They can track the number of NICS checks and the ones that are denied are kept.

Now I don't believe that they are NOT keeping a record of personal identifiers of purchasers.

Back to your point, they would have to go to the FFL, get information from the 4473 then do a NICS check. Can they do that legally? IDK. Maybe.

The fact remains that they are doing a post purchase NICS check.

 

[Choid]

That's a good question. When I read it, I took the article at face value. Besides, after the NICS check, by law, the ATF is not supposed to keep a record of the buyer having ever purchased a firearm. They can track the number of NICS checks and the ones that are denied are kept.

Now I don't believe that they are NOT keeping a record of personal identifiers of purchasers.

Back to your point, they would have to go to the FFL, get information from the 4473 then do a NICS check. Can they do that legally? IDK. Maybe.

The fact remains that they are doing a post purchase NICS check.

I forwarded the article to my ffl, who is also my hunting partner. I will see what he says is happening. Last time I talked about it with his wife, she said the ATF rep hadn't visited in a long time, and they weren't doing in persons because of Covid, so I am a bit skeptical about this actually going on. Not as skeptical that they want to do it in the future...

 

[Longshot231]

I have a friend who was charged with DV here in Texas. More verbal than physical, grabbed spouses arm and left a bruise.
She didn’t file charges when sheriff’s arrived. The State of Texas filed, charged, convicted and probation for 2 years. Going to be 5 years before he can obtain another CHL. His firearms were not taken, they are still together.
He is pissed and blames her, I blame him.
Nothing to play around with, I’m sure the DV charges red flags on 4473 checks.

Your friend is an idiot for staying with her. She must have superior bedroom talents for him to even talk with her.

My ex-wife tried to bait me into a DV charge once. I dodged that one and didn't touch her like she wanted. After that happened, I cold never trust her. She's not around anymore and I sleep peacefully with my guns to keep me warm.

I would advise your friend to run away as fast as he can. I'll give you odds 10:1 that she will call the po-po on him again.

 

[Supersubes]

How does the NICs clerk know that the purchase has occurred? Has the article explained that, because as far as I know, the 4473 just goes into a file and sits there.

Bingo!

The only way they could do it is if the IOI’s record info for these types of transactions during annual inspections. The IOI’s in my area are super nice, very helpful, and busy as hell. Hard for me to believe this is anything to worry about. I think some context is missing here. If the ATF raids a dirty dealer, then I can see them taking the time to comb thier books and check everyone who wasnt run through NICS.

 

[Longshot231]

Bingo!

The only way they could do it is if the IOI’s record info for these types of transactions during annual inspections. The IOI’s in my area are super nice, very helpful, and busy as hell. Hard for me to believe this is anything to worry about. I think some context is missing here. If the ATF raids a dirty dealer, then I can see them taking the time to comb thier books and check everyone who wasnt run through NICS.

What is an "IOI?"

 

[Choid]

What is an "IOI?"

They are the guys who come and do yearly(?) inspections of FFLs. My impression is generally what Supersubes said, that they are friendly, hurried, and not looking to shut down gun sales or bust normal FFLs.

 

[Longshot231]

They are the guys who come and do yearly(?) inspections of FFLs. My impression is generally what Supersubes said, that they are friendly, hurried, and not looking to shut down gun sales or bust normal FFLs.

I got that impression. I was just curious about what the letters meant.

 

[Choid]

I got that impression. I was just curious about what the letters meant.

Industry operations inspectors, or some such.

 

[TexPatriot]

Just because you possess the card, does not mean that you aren't prohibited from owning a weapon.
To the best of my knowledge, there is no mechanism in place for a peace officer to seize CHL when an arrest is made on a charge that would likely result in rescinding the CHL or result in bond conditions where possession of a firearm is restricted.

I'll give you an example:
Billy-Bob and his wife are at a BBQ. Billy-Bob has been drinking and is angered over something and decides to beat the shit out of his wife, Mary-Sue. Mary-Sue is so badly injured, that she requires hospitalization and the crime, besides being an act of Domestic Violence, which runs afoul of Federal law, is also a State felony level offense.
Bond conditions set require that Billy-Bob surrender his forearms and further restrict him from possessing a firearm.
In order to avoid another arrest, Billy-Bob surrenders his firearms.
Billy-Bob then goes to the LGS and purchases a new firearm, using his CHL, which wasn't seized.
Now, they may also demand surrender of his license if they think about it, but otherwise, you are waiting for a government bureaucracy to complete paperwork and mail it to you, demanding that you send it back.

I had a CHL many years ago, I was NEVER under the impression that a background check wasn't completed, I was just able to bypass waiting in the store.

What did the wife do to deserve an ass whooping? Was her name Karen?

Why would Billy-Bob be required to surrender his forearms?

 

[Supersubes]

What is an "IOI?"

Industry Operations Investigator. The people who inspect FFl’s.

edit: choid beat me to it.