Have I forgotten how to setup a sizing die? Hornady 6.5 Creedmoor and .224 Valkarie dies not sizing back to SAAMI or able to chamber

[Randy_Lahey]

Ok guys, super frustrated and wanted to just throw this out there.....

I cannot get Hornady 6.5 creedmoor or .224 Valkarie dies to size my once fired brass to either SAAMI specs or even chamber specs. I've setup several sets of Hornady dies in the past in .223, .308, 9mm, 40SW, sig .357 etc... I've never had an issue finding the correct setting on the sizing dies. I use chamber gauges and then also chamber rounds to test my method when setting up. Anyway, I've recently started to shoot the above calibers, and accumulated enough brass that I ordered the Hornady Custom dies for 6.5 Creedmoor and .224 Valkarie. I know some may trash me for using Hornady, and maybe I'm learning a lesson. But I do have a budget that I can spend on my toys and Hornady dies have served me well in the past w/out any issues, great warranty(I broke spindles/etc.. and like dillon etc.. they just replace), and the rebate/bullets are a nice plus for this middle age'd frugal father of 4 . But..... These two latest dies sets have me questioning my sanity.

I can screw the damm dies down hit the shell plate on either my Hornady LNL AP or Lee Classic turret press; with appropriate shell plates selected, and then try to adjust down until a point at which it's getting uncomfortable for me to cam over the press any harder. I'm talking well over a 1/4 turn past cam over. Anyway, the .224 valkarie ALMOST gets to spec in the Lyman chamber gauge. I can chamber a round but it's gotta slam home the bcg; and obviously that is not acceptable. I called Hornady today and sent back my Valkarie die for them to inspect/fix etc....

I also have the 6.5 Creedmoor set. The dies acted very similar to the Valkarie die story mentioned above. I returned one set when I couldn't get a round to gauge/chamber and the replacement is even worse. Where the Valkarie would be out maybe 1-2 thousandths from flush, the 6.5 was 1-1.5 millimeters OVER. Like almost to the extractor groove. And again, this was with screwing the die down until I am camming the press over to my max comfort level. IMO even way more than I'd be comfortable running day to day. I'm sorry to ramble, but it's just hard to throw this down being so frustrated but I guess I need to ask?

Did I somehow get Alzhiemer's and forget how to setup a sizing die. I'll mention that I don't run the expander ball as I use a Sinclair mandrel now, and I have sized the cases for proper length. As far as i can recall, and watching videos etc... Screw the bastard down until about touching shell plate give or take, then keep working down until achieving desired results of proper case sizing and shoulder bump. Which makes me question my sanity as getting 3 off spec dies sets seems statistically impossible. But here I am. Having just setup my Hornady .308 setup a month ago which was smooth sailing. My 5.56/.223 barely touches the shell plate before rounds spec/chamber fine. The tech I spoke with on the phone didn't seem to indicate any concern with my methodology in setting up the sizing die, but then again, they probably talk to a 100 morons like me daily and just pass things along and grease wheels to keep people happy, I dunno!

Anyone who's read this diatribe I'm sorry. Just super frustrated. Need advise!

 

[Strykervet]

What about your shellholders? Could they be culprit? What did Hornady say? Those dies work with those shellplates?

I had a similar problem and it turned out I just didn't have the die down enough. I was worried about overcamming too, it's a .50 press though so I had no other calibers or anything to compare it to. Dillon said it was fine (and yes, Dillon is shit hot when it comes to CS, called about a couple missing parts, they sent a box full of parts! --CD4D could take a lesson from them).

IME, setting up dies with shellplates is a bit more, uh, sloppy? than it is with a single stage and shellholders.

Oh, shit! Just thought, you're using a progressive, is another die possibly down too low? Not sure what all you run on yours but mine has a trim die and neck expander die on during sizing. I use a different toolhead completely for loading. I know some size and load in the same step though.

Just my .02 and trying to help.

 

[Randy_Lahey]

Shell holders are new Hornady for appropriate calibers. 6.5 Creed, uses the .308 plates, and .224 is shellplate #12, which I got for both the AP and my Lee turret press. Both presses have same issue. Virgin starline brass loads fine.

 

[Strykervet]

Huh. I'm stumped without looking at it, not that I'd be able to do anything different than you've described. I use Wilson gauges, so not really any different.

And only the sizing die in the press?

 

[Randy_Lahey]

yeah only the sizing die. I mean for the life of me I swear they are bad dies. But getting 3 sets that the sizer is fubar seems impossible. I dunno, I'll call hornady tomorrow and ask them. I have terrible luck so I could see it being the 3 bad dies out of 100,000 sets going all to me lol.

 

[Randy_Lahey]

Below is reference of how far down the case the sizing is getting. This is at 1/4 turn past touching shell plate. Per the tech when I called, he stated you should not have to run more than 1/4 turn past the die meeting the shell plate. Somewhat Moderate cam over at that point.


This is how this case gauges in my Hornady case gauge


I can continue to sink the die a bit lower until cam over gets to be harder. At that point I give up and don't want to pressure the press etc... more. The base of the shell doesn't look much different, but the case will gage better, but as u can see still quite a way from flush.


For reference, a new piece of starline brass just to make sure the gauge wasn't faulty etc...


Also, just to confirm I wasn't over bumping/crushing the shoulder, I backed the die out 1/2 turn from touching shell plate and with another set of once fired, cleaned, brass I put them through the die. This was not the fix as I needed to keep lowering the die to get any sizing done, but was able to see with successive adjustments the process of the die coming down the neck and eventually getting to the shoulder. The point at which the die started to hit the shoulder was a little past or approximately 1/4 turn past touching the shell plate. FYI in case people thought I may have been crushing the shell in the process etc...

 

[Precision Underground]

Are you using a progressive press? Possible the turret is giving a few thou and not forcing the case all of the way in? That would explain it happening to multiple calibers. Maybe the 308 is just sizing easier or has enough tolerance built in for it not to matter.

 

[Snuby642]

So do you know anyone with a die that you could borrow?
That would eliminate everything except the die if you changed nothing else.
Also have you installed and tested any past tested and set dies?

And don't make fun of guys with Alzhiemer's, as I remember it we make great ammo.

 

[Snuby642]

Maybe 6.5 creed and 6.5 "whatever" got mixed at the factory as to some of the parts?

 

[Randy_Lahey]

I have tried both on my Hornady LnL progressive and I also have the Lee Classic Turret. Obviously, different shell plates for each press. Each press creates brass with similar problem in not chambering etc... Nobody else around me with 6.5 Creed dies. Not many around me reload tbh. I live in a rural area as well.

I may just break down and drive the 1hr 45mins to Recob's target shop. Good enough excuse to go there and bask in all of the different powder choices. Find some alternative dies and just stop beating my head against the wall ;p. After re-evaluating my process today, I cannot find any areas I'm overlooking so have to assume I just got defective dies.

 

[Snuby642]

Maybe you take those dies with you and let that shop confirm they are junk.
Sure sounds like it, pick up something that works and bag tag that to Hornady.

I bet eventually they make it right, but would not sit and wait either.
Good luck!

 

[Randy_Lahey]

yeah agreed. I was going to ask if they had a press in the back to verify whatever set I buy works, and maybe that my dies won't work for them as well. I dunno!

 

[flyright]

A friend of mine recently got 2 sets of Hornady dies in a row for 6.5 CM that had the same issue. He ended up machining the base of the die shortening it and problem solved. I'd have sent it back again and gone with another brand. I would bet that's your issue. I'd at least explain this to Hornady so that they might actually measure the next set they send you. I think they have good CS but maybe a bad batch of dies?

 

[Deleted member 10043]

Read the instructions

 

[supercorndogs]

Case gauges are not good for the reloader who wants good brass life. The reason is sammi spec is way smaller than a chamber. Therefore your shoulder will be growing too much each firing. This will lead to early CHS.

You say gauge/chamber are equating them as one and the same?

 

[Randy_Lahey]

supercorndogs. I have tried to chamber rounds in the firearm, and use the case gauge as well. I usually bump my shoulders back 0.002-0.003 and not all the way back to SAMMI specs but since I couldn't get rounds to chamber I went back to square one, and tried to get the rounds back to SAMMI to r/o the shoulder not being bumped back enough. I should have mentioned that as well. The Valkarie dies I could get about 0.002 of bump back but no more due to cam over being hard/impossible. The Creedmoor I could not get any appreciable shoulder bump back.

 

[Soulezoo]

Competition shell holders just may work for you.

 

[hlee]

Ive got a set of Hornady custom dies in 6.5 creedmoor. I use them as the instruction dictate- run ram up to fully extended; screw die in until it touches shell holder; tighten lock screw; resize. With no cam-over the brass fits into my RPR chamber. This is with a RCBS rock chucker supreme single stage press. I realize I could get more brass life by bumping the shoulder, but I am erring on the side of reliable feeding and possibly lower brass life. So far so good.

One question that I have is "are you using hornady shell holders with your hornady dies?" I ask because I have RCBS dies and shell holders as well as hornady dies and shell holders. When setting up the dies I always match the shell holder brand to the die brand. I don't know if this matters, but feel that it could.

 

[Randy_Lahey]

yes Hornady shell holders/plates. I finally just gave up the quest and called Hornady. Dies are on their way back to be checked. I'm sure it will be fixed or they will tell me what I'm doing wrong(although I'm not sure what I can be doing wrong at this point).

 

[shooter98]

I have bought the Hornady match dies for my 6.5 thinking they’d be an upgrade from my Lee dies and I am having the exact same problem. Hornady sent me another sizing due but it too does the exact same thing. My Lee dies are no problem. I’m stumped. This is on a Hornady LnL progressive press or my RCBS rock checker, doesn’t matter, same results.

 

[Deleted member 10043]

Just goes to show upgrading from a Lee set is not really an upgrade. The easiest basic dies to work with are Lee. And I bet most that do upgrade see no advantage because they don't upgrade their shooting. Easier softer ways avail is nothing.

 

[Bantam1]

I had the same issue with a Hornady 223 die. I sent it to them and the body of the die was too long. They machined it to the correct length and it solved the issue. Later my buddy go a case stuck in it and fucked it up trying to remove it before letting me know. I ended up with a Redding die and never looked back. I’m happy with my pistol dies from Hornsby but have had much better results with Redding for my rifle reloading needs.

 

[hlee]

So... I have to update my post above. MOST of the brass fits in my RPR chamber. Out of 450ish pieces I sized recently, 8 did not size down enough to fit in my rifle. I bought a hornady case gauge and most of them (like more than 90%) were too large to fully seat in the gauge, but fit in the chamber without dragging on close. I'm going to contact Hornsdy to see if they have a remedy.

 

[Easy_E]

Are the dies neck sizing dies and not full length dies ?

 

[hlee]

No, the Hornady Custom grade sizing die is supposed to be a full length sizing die.

 

[Easy_E]

I won't tell how much time I spent trying to adjust a neck die with no bushing thinking it was a full length . The print is way too small for old eyes.

 

[Randy_Lahey]

Mine were full length and not neck sizing or bushing dies. The .224 val die was fixed after sending it back once. I got the 6.5 die back and it was "shaved several thousands and said to size brass back to spec". I put it in a couple presses and same issue as before No improvement. I sent my 6.5 die back to Hornady a 2nd time with some more brass, my shell holder etc.... This time I got a new die back. This one does work. However, in the mean time, I got an RCBS die that works great and I threw a .22 expander in there so it's basically a sizing die and decapper but not neck sizing, as I use a sinclair expander for that duty. The new Hornady does work, but it needs a fair bit of cam over on my press, and the RCBS is just easier to use etc... This is the first ever trouble I've had with Hornady dies but it was a bummer to have to hassle so much with returns/warranty etc... They paid shipping all ways, which was nice of them, and they were cool on the phone.

 

[RioKid]

I had this exact same issue with my Hornady 6.5 Custom Die set. It was driving me nuts. I called my brother-in-law over ( he reloads as well ), and we both were left scratching our head after starting from ground zero and resetting the die multiple times. I was getting about 25% failure rate on once fired Hornady brass. We were also wondering about spring back in the brass. We were left with no answers.
I ordered a set of Whidden dies and didnt look back. Still wondering if Hornady had a miss calc on a batch of 6.5 Creedmoor dies.
Chris

 

[Randy_Lahey]

yeah I'm pretty sure they had some bad runs of off spec parts.

 

[hlee]

I bought an RCBS die set and brass sized with that fit in the case gauge. I think I still prefer the hornady seating die...

 

[Randy_Lahey]

Agreed, the hornady seating die is great.

 

[Leonard Barnes]

Yes I too am having problems with the resizing die it won’t bump the shoulder back far enough to fit my new defiance action,not to change subject but hornady has dropped the ball a lot lately built a 6.5PRC and was told hornady sent out wrong specs for reamer build and I lucky as I am got one it won’t even chamber a factory round , hopefully they will fix their calipers because they must be off lol

 

[supercorndogs]

I had this exact same issue with my Hornady 6.5 Custom Die set. It was driving me nuts. I called my brother-in-law over ( he reloads as well ), and we both were left scratching our head after starting from ground zero and resetting the die multiple times. I was getting about 25% failure rate on once fired Hornady brass. We were also wondering about spring back in the brass. We were left with no answers.
I ordered a set of Whidden dies and didnt look back. Still wondering if Hornady had a miss calc on a batch of 6.5 Creedmoor dies.
Chris

25% failure rate? As in 25% of the once fired brass you sized would not chamber? This is not uncommon and plays right into measuring brass and finding a die that matches up with your chamber well. Its one of the reasons people use small base dies on brass fired in other chambers.

 

[demolitionman]

Sorry couldn’t resist

 

[Randy_Lahey]

Hehe, you get the reference!!!

BTW Hornady will fix the dies, but it's a PIA to have to send back, wait etc.... Other brand dies just work. I love Hornady for many things, but the Creedmoor die debacle has soured me a bit, and my .224 Valkarie die had to eventually be sent back as well.

 

[Snuby642]

I had similar problems with 300blk from hornady.
No more hornady dies for me.

 

[Usmcvet1064]

I know this is an old thread, but has there been any resolution? I am having this same exact problem now. I am using lee ultimate dies in 6.5 and had this issue. I sent the die back to Lee to be reworked and when they sent it back, same issue. I also bought an RCBS small base full length sizing die, no change. My resized brass is about 1 mm from fitting in the case gauge, after bumping the shoulder back to factory specs and trimming to 1.91.

 

[Schw15]

Ive had this problem in the past where i couldnt get the dies down far enough to resize the brass to fit back in chamber. Sometimes chambers are cut different and what i had to do is either mill the die down or take the shell holder and grind it down til you get proper fit in chamber. That way you can screw the die down deeper to get the brass resized

 

[Usmcvet1064]

I am going to cut a shim for the shell holder tonight and see if that helps. Hopefully it will and i can grind the holder down to solve this for good.

 

[Schw15]

I am going to cut a shim for the shell holder tonight and see if that helps. Hopefully it will and i can grind the holder down to solve this for good.

What I did if you have a grinding wheel measure the shell holder and then cover it with a black Sharpie and grind It Off test it we caught it with a sharpie and regrind it that way you get an even grind

 

[Usmcvet1064]

Update: I cut s shim out of a can and no change. I even tried 2 shims at a time. My fired brass is measuring 1.538 at the shoulder and pretty consistent at 1.913 oal with the primers punched out. Could this be a chamber/barrel issue?

 

[Schw15]

When I had that problem and I couldn't resize enough I had to grind the shell holder so you can screw the die down farther so the die with resize the brass properly

 

[Usmcvet1064]

I just can’t figure it out. I would think the shoulder would move more. Sammi minimum is 1.536 from what I’ve read. If I screw the die down anymore, the shoulders are going to bump too much right? the case diameter right at the extractor ring is a thou or 2 too big to fit in the case gauge. And just for fun, I measured the shoulder on a factory, unfired Hornady round, it measured 1.530 to the shoulder, so much for Sammi minimum.

 

[Schw15]

So when you resize your brass you cant get it to fit back into the chamber? The bolt closes very tight? Your die is touching shell holder and is very hard to lower press?

 

[Usmcvet1064]

That’s about it. after resizing, the shoulder measures in spec, the oal measures in spec, but the od of the case body right at the extractor ring is 1 to 2 thousandths too big.

 

[Schw15]

If you have a spare shell holder i would grind it down and try it. Sounds like what i had

 

[Usmcvet1064]

I believe I have eliminated the shell holder as the problem. I sacrificed 2 pieces of brass as put them directly into both full length dies without the shell holder. They still won’t fit the case gauge. They lack about a millimeter of fitting correctly.

 

[Strongbullit]

I had the same problem with a set of Hornady Custom Grade 6.5 Creedmoor dies. Cases would not fit gauge after resizing. They did fit my rifle chamber well though, kinda like fire formed and shoulder bumping. I have ran the same 50 pieces of brass 4 times now. I annealed on 2nd and will again on this run. Seems the dies were just enough out of spec to work real well, at least in my gun. Shooting .5 MOA at 200 yards now, not finished tuning but looking good so far.