Suppressors Have you settled on one go to pistol?

#51
Re: Have you settled on one go to pistol?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shooter19802003</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

It is on the hefty side. I will give you that. I figure if all else fails it will actually help me in hand to hand.....lol. you get used to it though. The more I carried it the less I started to even notice it.

I am not harping on the the 1911...to each their own. Its just not for me. I really like the kimber desert model with the digital grips. I tried to make the gun work. I just couldn't get it to feel right. Then I was going to get a doublestack in 9mm......couldn't justify the cost though. </div></div>

I figured out you weren't harping on it. Honestly, I like the new H&K 45s and they are quite ergonomic, but ultimately, I love my 1911s. Still kills me how much mags for H&Ks cost. lol
 
#52
Re: Have you settled on one go to pistol?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: nw1911guy</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Still kills me how much mags for H&Ks cost. lol</div></div>

You and me both! Still haven't figured that one out. Try buying one of the 33rnd extended mags....that's sticker shock!
 
#53
Re: Have you settled on one go to pistol?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dark Horse</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

I have also met several people who have questioned the 9mm as a reliable stopping round, however I have never met one that questioned the 45.
</div></div>

Count me as the first one. I question the manstopping ability of any handgun.

I also question the judgment of someone who doesn't know by now that there's no material, demonstrable, empirical, etc., difference when it comes to getting shot with a decent 9mm bullet and a decent .45 bullet.
 
#54
Re: Have you settled on one go to pistol?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dark Horse</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

I have also met several people who have questioned the 9mm as a reliable stopping round, however I have never met one that questioned the 45.
</div></div>

Count me as the first one. I question the manstopping ability of any handgun.

I also question the judgment of someone who doesn't know by now that there's no material, demonstrable, empirical, etc., difference when it comes to getting shot with a decent 9mm bullet and a decent .45 bullet. </div></div>

Good point DZ. I hesitated to mention Jim Cirillo's experiences of guys taking hits from 12ga shotguns and not going down.
 
#55
Re: Have you settled on one go to pistol?

well hell.i am gonna retire soon and was looking at a kimber for my CCW, but you guys seem to have issues w/em. are they really unreliable round count wise? i cast/load etc so it will be shot a lot. gave my 70 series commander to my son so gotta replace it. my MP 40 cal is my carry and go-to pistol for now but gotta have a 1911 45 or i feel deprived. i'm over 6' and have big hands so....????
 
#56
Re: Have you settled on one go to pistol?

My advise there is. .goto your nearest toy shop and handle everything that you can. Eventually you are going to find something you like and that feels right.

9Mm is also cheaper to shoot. So you can afford more trigger time, thus becomming a better shooter.
 
#57
Re: Have you settled on one go to pistol?

shooter19802003...if ur post was to the OP then good advice and drive on. if it was my post, then......i cast and load all my own ammo and have over 1000 lbs of WW waiting and 1000s of pills waiting to be stuffed. plus, in my reloading room theres 2 things not allowed, lit cigars and 9 mils. been in LE since 1972 (who cares, i know) and seen too much to enjoy the smell of a 9. in any case, my question pertained to the RELIABILITY of a KIMBER. in any case if ur post was not in response to mine, accept my apologies.
 
#58
Re: Have you settled on one go to pistol?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kentactic</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Gen3 Glock 23 is clearly the pistol to do all of the above...

- small enough to carry.

- great to train with says thousands of law enforcement officers.

- great for USPSA (i shoot mine in uspsa)

- 40 S&W is a big enough caliber to use in the wilderness (unless you live in alaska)

and to the guys saying 45ACP is good for USPSA your on crack... </div></div>

This is my setup with an extra KKM 9mm threaded barrel for cheaper practice if I've got lots of 9mm sitting around. Great little gun. If CCW wasn't an issue though, my SA 1911 Operator would probably be my sidearm since I'd have my AR-15 nearby.
 
#59
Re: Have you settled on one go to pistol?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A 4" 1911 in .45ACP remains unbeatable for any and all of that. </div></div>


+1 I carry a springfield champion operator and it fits the bill on almost everything I need it for.
 
#60
Re: Have you settled on one go to pistol?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sergeant69</div><div class="ubbcode-body">shooter19802003...if ur post was to the OP then good advice and drive on. if it was my post, then......i cast and load all my own ammo and have over 1000 lbs of WW waiting and 1000s of pills waiting to be stuffed. plus, in my reloading room theres 2 things not allowed, lit cigars and 9 mils. been in LE since 1972 (who cares, i know) and seen too much to enjoy the smell of a 9. in any case, my question pertained to the RELIABILITY of a KIMBER. in any case if ur post was not in response to mine, accept my apologies.</div></div>

The top half was to you and the bottom to the op. Which is why I divided the post. Cant do awhole lot more than that from my phone. You made it pretty appearent in your post that you were a 45acp koolaid drinker. To each their own there. Not going to debate ballistics and start that shit going. So, apologies accepted.
 
#61
Re: Have you settled on one go to pistol?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dark Horse</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

I have also met several people who have questioned the 9mm as a reliable stopping round, however I have never met one that questioned the 45.
</div></div>

Count me as the first one. I question the manstopping ability of any handgun.

I also question the judgment of someone who doesn't know by now that there's no material, demonstrable, empirical, etc., difference when it comes to getting shot with a decent 9mm bullet and a decent .45 bullet. </div></div>

Maybe you should send your professional, expert opinion to every law enforcement agency in the country that routinely tests calibers to find the one that best suits their needs. It would seem that the 9mm would be cheapest, so why aren't they all using it?

Question judgment all you want, I suppose that anyone here that has an opinion that differs from yours exhibits poor judgment.

Here is a fact for you not an opinion. The NYS Police were not satisfied with the 9mm's stopping power and switched to the 45 GAP in 2006. They have been very pleased with its performance.
 
#62
Re: Have you settled on one go to pistol?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dark Horse</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dark Horse</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

I have also met several people who have questioned the 9mm as a reliable stopping round, however I have never met one that questioned the 45.
</div></div>

Count me as the first one. I question the manstopping ability of any handgun.

I also question the judgment of someone who doesn't know by now that there's no material, demonstrable, empirical, etc., difference when it comes to getting shot with a decent 9mm bullet and a decent .45 bullet. </div></div>

Maybe you should send your professional, expert opinion to every law enforcement agency in the country that routinely tests calibers to find the one that best suits their needs. It would seem that the 9mm would be cheapest, so why aren't they all using it?

Question judgment all you want, I suppose that anyone here that has an opinion that differs from yours exhibits poor judgment.

Here is a fact for you not an opinion. The NYS Police were not satisfied with the 9mm's stopping power and switched to the 45 GAP in 2006. They have been very pleased with its performance. </div></div>

It's still a handgun. Handguns are inefficient bullet throwers at best. I think that is what DZ was alluding to.

Have you ever heard any of Bill Allard or Jim Cirillo's experiences on NYPD's stakeout squad? It's worth the experience if you haven't.
 
#63
Re: Have you settled on one go to pistol?

just as a side note, because it sorta fits in...i called a well known/respected 1911 and glock smith in san antonio today (won't say name as he didn't know i was going to repeat this, not that he'd care)and asked him about building me a 1911 from the piles of parts he has in his shop. said no, that those days are over. said nowdays its cheaper to buy from a mass producer regardless who or from where than have one cobbled together no matter the quality. i remember being able to call 3-4 "garage" smiths and wind up w/easily enough parts to put a 1911 together. and it was fun. guess i need to be put out to pasture.
 
#64
Re: Have you settled on one go to pistol?

Oh, it's easy enough to find the parts to build a 1911, assuming that you have the skills involved in doing that. Brownnell's probably sells all of them.

Back when the 1911 was the main choice in auto pistols, it took a good smith to transform the pile of parts into a reliable weapon.

These days, it's a lot easier to simply buy a reliable handgun, rather than build one, or pay someone to transform an unreliable one.

People get all wrapped around the axle about pistol accuracy, as if you needed accuracy in a defensive handgun, which are most often used at engagement ranges measured in feet rather than yards.

Get a gun which runs. Then dry fire it a lot, and shoot it a lot. It's not about the gun.
 
#65
Re: Have you settled on one go to pistol?

Get a gun which runs. Then dry fire it a lot, and shoot it a lot. It's not about the gun.

i couldn't agree more. thats why i'm here, getting opinions about the ones that run. ur from rockport. remember the 100 year floods of 2002(?) i live on the nueces river and lost most all my 1911 tools. and a lot more. other wise i'd be real tempted to put one together. between work, woodturning, casting, loading, fishing, rodbuilding, etc etc i'd just as soon save up and buy one i can rely on. ONE THAT RUNS.
 
#67
Re: Have you settled on one go to pistol?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lindy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Oh, it's easy enough to find the parts to build a 1911, assuming that you have the skills involved in doing that. Brownnell's probably sells all of them.

Back when the 1911 was the main choice in auto pistols, it took a good smith to transform the pile of parts into a reliable weapon.

These days, it's a lot easier to simply buy a reliable handgun, rather than build one, or pay someone to transform an unreliable one.

People get all wrapped around the axle about pistol accuracy, as if you needed accuracy in a defensive handgun, which are most often used at engagement ranges measured in feet rather than yards.

Get a gun which runs. Then dry fire it a lot, and shoot it a lot. It's not about the gun.
</div></div>

Good point.

Do you remember about a week ago discussing what ammo to use? Factory or reloads? Whether or not I'm in favor of reloads or not, I'm with you, you've got to get on the trigger and see where the gun hits. Make it hit and hit again. From positions you would find yourself in during a 'self-defense' episode. People need to learn to draw from their concealment, that's huge from what I see, and they need to learn to hit a body by just pointing at 5 feet away in the kill zone. I Often see people grabbing for their gun and having it hang up. Then when they shoot up close twice as fast as they can, miss a man size paper target, again at 5-6 feet.

I do my best to get these people to slow down, and get it right. Slow is smooth, smooth is fast. As you noted it was Farnum who said amateurs do it till they get it right. Professionals do it until they can't get it wrong. I have people slow down and do it until they don't get it wrong.
 
#68
Re: Have you settled on one go to pistol?

You have good ideas, except..

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Slow is smooth, smooth is fast.</div></div>

Please delete that phrase from your lexicon.

Slow is just...slow.

What's true is that speed and power must follow the achievement of correct form, which has been known to martial artists for several thousand years. I learned it from a Japanese sensei 57 years ago.
 
#69
Re: Have you settled on one go to pistol?

Drawing concealed is very important, and at close range shooting from retention is equally important and should be practiced in the clothes you carry in. Your slide strikig your chest, hip or getting snagged in your clothes causing a malfunction reduces your weapon status from gun to club.
 
#71
Re: Have you settled on one go to pistol?

You have good ideas, except..

Quote:
Slow is smooth, smooth is fast.


Please delete that phrase from your lexicon.

Slow is just...slow.

Thanks for pointing that out Lindy, it's always bugged me too. I heard Rob Leatham say once that "the only thing worse than a fast miss was a slow "D".
 
#72
Re: Have you settled on one go to pistol?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: nw1911guy</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dark Horse</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dark Horse</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

I have also met several people who have questioned the 9mm as a reliable stopping round, however I have never met one that questioned the 45.
</div></div>

Count me as the first one. I question the manstopping ability of any handgun.

I also question the judgment of someone who doesn't know by now that there's no material, demonstrable, empirical, etc., difference when it comes to getting shot with a decent 9mm bullet and a decent .45 bullet. </div></div>

Maybe you should send your professional, expert opinion to every law enforcement agency in the country that routinely tests calibers to find the one that best suits their needs. It would seem that the 9mm would be cheapest, so why aren't they all using it?

Question judgment all you want, I suppose that anyone here that has an opinion that differs from yours exhibits poor judgment.

Here is a fact for you not an opinion. The NYS Police were not satisfied with the 9mm's stopping power and switched to the 45 GAP in 2006. They have been very pleased with its performance. </div></div>

It's still a handgun. Handguns are inefficient bullet throwers at best. I think that is what DZ was alluding to.

Have you ever heard any of Bill Allard or Jim Cirillo's experiences on NYPD's stakeout squad? It's worth the experience if you haven't. </div></div>

It is still a handgun and I never stated that it was the most efficient way of dispatching an attacker. Regardless of what some may think, some handgun calibers are more efficient at their intended purpose than others.

When officers that used 38 Special switched over to the 357 Magnum and began seeing much better results, it wasn't because their shot placement became better overnight, in fact it was probably just the opposite given the increased muzzle blast and recoil of the Magnum.

The 45 ACP was designed because the 38 Colt sucked at stopping determined attackers. A 230 gr bullet may shatter a bone and continue on to a vital organ from an off angle shot, when that same bone may stop a lighter 9mm bullet.
 
#73
Re: Have you settled on one go to pistol?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: titandriver</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I heard Rob Leatham say once that "the only thing worse than a fast miss was a slow "D". </div></div>

Funny, he told me to slow down and concentrate on hits....

I don't think suppressive fire is a great plan in a civilian gunfight.
 
#74
Re: Have you settled on one go to pistol?

Glock 22, .40S&W. Carry one at work and off duty. Shoot one in USPSA and IDPA. Have one at home. .40 is a good compromise between 9 and 45. I prefer a full size gun. Glocks are totally reliable and accurate enough for their purpose. Picking one gun/system is a good idea.
 
#77
Re: Have you settled on one go to pistol?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lindy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You have good ideas, except..

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Slow is smooth, smooth is fast.</div></div>

Please delete that phrase from your lexicon.

Slow is just...slow.

What's true is that speed and power must follow the achievement of correct form, which has been known to martial artists for several thousand years. I learned it from a Japanese sensei 57 years ago.
</div></div>

But its such a catchy phrase....makes me sound cooler than shit whenever I say it.



For the actual topic at hand, my answer is: whichever pistol is closest if and when a threat develops. By choice that is usually a 1911 in 45acp, but may be anything from that to a Jennings 22.
If you are asking "what do you equip yourself with when you expect trouble" my first answer would be "a mindset that doesn't put me in troublesome situations".
If you are asking about duty pistols I won't comment, becasue I'm not qualified.
If you are asking recommendations for a carry pistol, as a civilian with some training qualifications I would say "try a bunch out and whichever one in whatever caliber you shoot well, and can and will carry comfortably would probably be best. Steer clear of jackoffs that demand you shoot a certain make, model or caliber".
If you are asking what I carry-see the first sentence.
 
#78
Re: Have you settled on one go to pistol?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lindy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You have good ideas, except..

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Slow is smooth, smooth is fast.</div></div>

Please delete that phrase from your lexicon.

Slow is just...slow.

What's true is that speed and power must follow the achievement of correct form, which has been known to martial artists for several thousand years. I learned it from a Japanese sensei 57 years ago.
</div></div>

I would have to say 'slow' needs to be put in context. It means go only as fast as you will get it right. Don't go so fast you get it wrong. Each time you get it wrong you have to unlearn, consciously and unconsciously, that bad draw. The best thing to do is learn it right. You cannot start drawing at the speed you need to survive a close up gunfight. So start at the right speed for the individual. You are right though, going slow and thinking slow isn't going to get you up to speed. Focusing on the task at hand will build the right kind of speed.
 
#79
Re: Have you settled on one go to pistol?

GLOCK 22 - Gen4

In 1800 rounds never had a malfunction, jam, stove pipe or anything. Do I like them? Ya, they are ok. They are comfortable and my feelings would not be hurt if I dropped it, or smacked it on something and got it scratched. Would i be pissed if I dropped my Custom 1911? Hell yes!
 
#80
Re: Have you settled on one go to pistol?

Sobr -- did you heed his advice? Bettin' he told you to concentrate on "A-zone" hits as opposed to sprayin' em anywhere on the target though eh?
I took his comment to mean that either could be hazardous to your health in a gunfight.<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sobrbiker883</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: titandriver</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I heard Rob Leatham say once that "the only thing worse than a fast miss was a slow "D". </div></div>

Funny, he told me to slow down and concentrate on hits....

I don't think suppressive fire is a great plan in a civilian gunfight. </div></div>
 
#81
Re: Have you settled on one go to pistol?

I was a little busy being nervous, seeing as it was my second or third pistol match ever and he was running the clock on me
shocked.gif
 
#82
Re: Have you settled on one go to pistol?

I think the G-19 would fit your bill perfectly given you'd like to use it in IDPA/USPSA. Still run production class and use your CCW holster/mag holders.

If you like metal, then I'd consider the Sig P229 in 9mm.

I personally would not get a .40.

1) My belief is that all .40's are a 9mm with bandaids to handle the load. I know they work, but they work harder. "They" meaning the gun itself.

2) Just the "gaming" element of USPSA. In production, there is not power-factor, so why abuse yourself with recoil of heavier calibers.

3) Practice practice practice = $$. 9mm is least expensive centerfire pistol ammo to purchase.

Just my weee bit of input. GOOD LUCK!! Have fun shopping!


-G45
 
#83
Re: Have you settled on one go to pistol?

I say, get a 460 or a 500. Reliability of a wheel gun. Plenty of stopping power and penetration. If it is dark you will blind the attackers/s with the muzzle blast all the while making everybody without hearing protection in a 500 ft radius completely deaf. If you are in a confined area, the concusion will knock the wind out of your assailant and deafen them for life. If all else fails, it is big enough to effectively beat a mob to death with it. Making it a formidably self defense and hand to hand combat weapon.

Problem solved. LOL
 
#84
Re: Have you settled on one go to pistol?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shooter19802003</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I say, get a 460 or a 500. Reliability of a wheel gun. Plenty of stopping power and penetration. If it is dark you will blind the attackers/s with the muzzle blast all the while making everybody without hearing protection in a 500 ft radius completely deaf. If you are in a confined area, the concusion will knock the wind out of your assailant and deafen them for life. If all else fails, it is big enough to effectively beat a mob to death with it. Making it a formidably self defense and hand to hand combat weapon.

Problem solved. LOL </div></div>

I about blew Sobe out my nose.
 
#86
Re: Have you settled on one go to pistol?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shooter19802003</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I say, get a 460 or a 500. Reliability of a wheel gun. Plenty of stopping power and penetration. If it is dark you will blind the attackers/s with the muzzle blast all the while making everybody without hearing protection in a 500 ft radius completely deaf. If you are in a confined area, the concusion will knock the wind out of your assailant and deafen them for life. If all else fails, it is big enough to effectively beat a mob to death with it. Making it a formidably self defense and hand to hand combat weapon.

Problem solved. LOL </div></div>

Shit, I think I'll take my .45 out of the nightstand and replace it with the 480....
 
#87
Re: Have you settled on one go to pistol?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dark Horse</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Maybe you should send your professional, expert opinion to every law enforcement agency in the country that routinely tests calibers to find the one that best suits their needs. It would seem that the 9mm would be cheapest, so why aren't they all using it?

Question judgment all you want, I suppose that anyone here that has an opinion that differs from yours exhibits poor judgment.

Here is a fact for you not an opinion. The NYS Police were not satisfied with the 9mm's stopping power and switched to the 45 GAP in 2006. They have been very pleased with its performance. </div></div>

Perhaps I should. I've read enough reports that suggest better and more training, more trigger time, and better shot placement trump all that they'd have to be fools to choose anything but 9mm when I was done with them.

I could agree with you every time if you like, but then we'd just both be wrong.

The rationale for a decision is not a "fact." It may be a fact that NYS replaced 9mm pistols with .45 GAPs. It is not a "fact" that they did so for reasons of stopping power--it's just someone else's opinion rather than yours.

My opinion is that if that is, indeed, a fact, that they changed pistol calibers from 9mm to .45 GAP, hoping for more stopping power, that whoever made that decision is a fool, should have known better, and that his or her decision was a mistake that ought to be revisited, because it is practice, mindset, and shot placement that produces results--not magic bullets.
 
#88
Re: Have you settled on one go to pistol?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shooter19802003</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sad thing is.....I actually put some thought into that.</div></div>

Of this I have no doubt. Lol

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dark Horse</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Maybe you should send your professional, expert opinion to every law enforcement agency in the country that routinely tests calibers to find the one that best suits their needs. It would seem that the 9mm would be cheapest, so why aren't they all using it?

Question judgment all you want, I suppose that anyone here that has an opinion that differs from yours exhibits poor judgment.

Here is a fact for you not an opinion. The NYS Police were not satisfied with the 9mm's stopping power and switched to the 45 GAP in 2006. They have been very pleased with its performance. </div></div>

Perhaps I should. I've read enough reports that suggest better and more training, more trigger time, and better shot placement trump all that they'd have to be fools to choose anything but 9mm when I was done with them.

I could agree with you every time if you like, but then we'd just both be wrong.

The rationale for a decision is not a "fact." It may be a fact that NYS replaced 9mm pistols with .45 GAPs. It is not a "fact" that they did so for reasons of stopping power--it's just someone else's opinion rather than yours.

My opinion is that if that is, indeed, a fact, that they changed pistol calibers from 9mm to .45 GAP, hoping for more stopping power, that whoever made that decision is a fool, should have known better, and that his or her decision was a mistake that ought to be revisited, because it is practice, mindset, and shot placement that produces results--not magic bullets.</div></div>

DZ, interesting way to look at it. I know of one failure of 9mm here where a local deputy used something on the order of 17 rounds of 9mm out of his duty Glock and the guy was still fighting the paramedics as they strapped him to a gurney, despite having no heart left. He was so loaded up on drugs that he just didn't know he was dead yet. Would .45ACP or GAP done better? Unlikely. I'm not even sure a 12ga. would have done it. But I'm sure a head shot would have.
 
#89
Re: Have you settled on one go to pistol?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dark Horse</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Maybe you should send your professional, expert opinion to every law enforcement agency in the country that routinely tests calibers to find the one that best suits their needs. It would seem that the 9mm would be cheapest, so why aren't they all using it?

Question judgment all you want, I suppose that anyone here that has an opinion that differs from yours exhibits poor judgment.

Here is a fact for you not an opinion. The NYS Police were not satisfied with the 9mm's stopping power and switched to the 45 GAP in 2006. They have been very pleased with its performance. </div></div>

Perhaps I should. I've read enough reports that suggest better and more training, more trigger time, and better shot placement trump all that they'd have to be fools to choose anything but 9mm when I was done with them.

I could agree with you every time if you like, but then we'd just both be wrong.

The rationale for a decision is not a "fact." It may be a fact that NYS replaced 9mm pistols with .45 GAPs. It is not a "fact" that they did so for reasons of stopping power--it's just someone else's opinion rather than yours.

My opinion is that if that is, indeed, a fact, that they changed pistol calibers from 9mm to .45 GAP, hoping for more stopping power, that whoever made that decision is a fool, should have known better, and that his or her decision was a mistake that ought to be revisited, because it is practice, mindset, and shot placement that produces results--not magic bullets. </div></div>

Here is some more reading for you.

http://www.gunthorp.com/Terminal%20Ballistics%20as%20viewed%20in%20a%20morgue.htm

http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/other/jh_45acp.htm
 
#90
Re: Have you settled on one go to pistol?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: nw1911guy</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shooter19802003</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sad thing is.....I actually put some thought into that.</div></div>

Of this I have no doubt. Lol

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dark Horse</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Maybe you should send your professional, expert opinion to every law enforcement agency in the country that routinely tests calibers to find the one that best suits their needs. It would seem that the 9mm would be cheapest, so why aren't they all using it?

Question judgment all you want, I suppose that anyone here that has an opinion that differs from yours exhibits poor judgment.

Here is a fact for you not an opinion. The NYS Police were not satisfied with the 9mm's stopping power and switched to the 45 GAP in 2006. They have been very pleased with its performance. </div></div>

Perhaps I should. I've read enough reports that suggest better and more training, more trigger time, and better shot placement trump all that they'd have to be fools to choose anything but 9mm when I was done with them.

I could agree with you every time if you like, but then we'd just both be wrong.

The rationale for a decision is not a "fact." It may be a fact that NYS replaced 9mm pistols with .45 GAPs. It is not a "fact" that they did so for reasons of stopping power--it's just someone else's opinion rather than yours.

My opinion is that if that is, indeed, a fact, that they changed pistol calibers from 9mm to .45 GAP, hoping for more stopping power, that whoever made that decision is a fool, should have known better, and that his or her decision was a mistake that ought to be revisited, because it is practice, mindset, and shot placement that produces results--not magic bullets.</div></div>

DZ, interesting way to look at it. I know of one failure of 9mm here where a local deputy used something on the order of 17 rounds of 9mm out of his duty Glock and the guy was still fighting the paramedics as they strapped him to a gurney, despite having no heart left. He was so loaded up on drugs that he just didn't know he was dead yet. Would .45ACP or GAP done better? Unlikely. I'm not even sure a 12ga. would have done it. But I'm sure a head shot would have. </div></div>

If the guy's heart was missing and he still didn't go down, it should illustrate my point quite nicely. I doubt a .500 S&W would have made that fight any different.
 
#92
Re: Have you settled on one go to pistol?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: nw1911guy</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shooter19802003</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sad thing is.....I actually put some thought into that.</div></div>

Of this I have no doubt. Lol

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dark Horse</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Maybe you should send your professional, expert opinion to every law enforcement agency in the country that routinely tests calibers to find the one that best suits their needs. It would seem that the 9mm would be cheapest, so why aren't they all using it?

Question judgment all you want, I suppose that anyone here that has an opinion that differs from yours exhibits poor judgment.

Here is a fact for you not an opinion. The NYS Police were not satisfied with the 9mm's stopping power and switched to the 45 GAP in 2006. They have been very pleased with its performance. </div></div>

Perhaps I should. I've read enough reports that suggest better and more training, more trigger time, and better shot placement trump all that they'd have to be fools to choose anything but 9mm when I was done with them.

I could agree with you every time if you like, but then we'd just both be wrong.

The rationale for a decision is not a "fact." It may be a fact that NYS replaced 9mm pistols with .45 GAPs. It is not a "fact" that they did so for reasons of stopping power--it's just someone else's opinion rather than yours.

My opinion is that if that is, indeed, a fact, that they changed pistol calibers from 9mm to .45 GAP, hoping for more stopping power, that whoever made that decision is a fool, should have known better, and that his or her decision was a mistake that ought to be revisited, because it is practice, mindset, and shot placement that produces results--not magic bullets.</div></div>

DZ, interesting way to look at it. I know of one failure of 9mm here where a local deputy used something on the order of 17 rounds of 9mm out of his duty Glock and the guy was still fighting the paramedics as they strapped him to a gurney, despite having no heart left. He was so loaded up on drugs that he just didn't know he was dead yet. Would .45ACP or GAP done better? Unlikely. I'm not even sure a 12ga. would have done it. But I'm sure a head shot would have. </div></div>

If the guy's heart was missing and he still didn't go down, it should illustrate my point quite nicely. I doubt a .500 S&W would have made that fight any different. </div></div>

I don't see where is illustrates much of anything. First of all, if the officer had time to unload a full magazine, then he had time to place one shot between the eyes.

Secondly, until an autopsy report is made public, I will go out on a limb and say that not one of those 17rds severed the spinal cord. Since there is a better than average chance a bullet will have to penetrate bone before it reaches the spinal cord, a larger bullet with more mass has less of a chance of being deflected of its path.

It's simple physics that was proven a hundred years ago.
 
#93
Re: Have you settled on one go to pistol?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dark Horse</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I don't see where is illustrates much of anything. First of all, if the officer had time to unload a full magazine, then he had time to place one shot between the eyes.

Secondly, until an autopsy report is made public, I will go out on a limb and say that not one of those 17rds severed the spinal cord. Since there is a better than average chance a bullet will have to penetrate bone before it reaches the spinal cord, a larger bullet with more mass has less of a chance of being deflected of its path.

It's simple physics that was proven a hundred years ago. </div></div>

May get into penetration issues as well. The use of hollowpoint ammunition being standard for law enforcement and armed civilian use, it would be hard to get anything to penetrate all the way through to the spinal cord unless you start going the route of FMJ, which then raises the potential problem of overpenetration. Obviously, everything is a compromise, sadly.
 
#94
Re: Have you settled on one go to pistol?

When I still lived back home the EDC was a S&W 629 Mountain Gun, loaded with 44 Specials, if Iheaded to the woods I loaded the Keith magnum load, never failed me, and 5'10" and 167lbs as of this morning. Leave the shirt untucked (or better yet pearl snaps), and carry it in a vertical shoulder holster and no one was the wiser.
 
#95
Re: Have you settled on one go to pistol?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: nw1911guy</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dark Horse</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I don't see where is illustrates much of anything. First of all, if the officer had time to unload a full magazine, then he had time to place one shot between the eyes.

Secondly, until an autopsy report is made public, I will go out on a limb and say that not one of those 17rds severed the spinal cord. Since there is a better than average chance a bullet will have to penetrate bone before it reaches the spinal cord, a larger bullet with more mass has less of a chance of being deflected of its path.

It's simple physics that was proven a hundred years ago. </div></div>

May get into penetration issues as well. The use of hollowpoint ammunition being standard for law enforcement and armed civilian use, it would be hard to get anything to penetrate all the way through to the spinal cord unless you start going the route of FMJ, which then raises the potential problem of overpenetration. Obviously, everything is a compromise, sadly. </div></div>

Exactly why a "fool" like myself believes the heavier .45 carries more momentum and penetrates deeper with less chance of being deflected.
 
#96
Re: Have you settled on one go to pistol?

The debate reminds me somewhat of SC trooper Mark Coates' death from a single shot with a .22, after shooting the suspect a reported 4 or 5 times in center mass with a .357 magnum.

Even a 147gr 9mm carries about 3/4 the momentum as a 230gr .45, and I chose 9mm mostly because it's easier to shoot a lot. If I were more interested in self defense than in target shooting, I likely would have chosen a .40 instead.

As for choosing a single handgun, the Sig P226 has been mentioned several times, and it or its cousins (P229, etc.) seem a good choice for an all-around gun.

John
 
#97
Re: Have you settled on one go to pistol?

This is what I would consider....

9mm SIG 226, 228 West German/German
.45 SIG 220 West German/German
9mm HK P7 M8/M13
.40 Cal HK P7 M10
Full size .45 / 10mm Glock depending on your build and carry.

From this list a .45 SIG220 WG/German wouldn't be bad. Still thinking about it.

Difficult part is addressing the bigger than human targets in the woods you mention. If that was not a concern, I would look at only the SIG and HK 9mm's above.

I would like to sneak in a Colt Commander some way...
 
#98
Re: Have you settled on one go to pistol?

I'll be picking up a new STi Guardian in .45 tomorrow. After a few hundred rounds this weekend it will be my new EDC pistol and "go to" gun for CC and nightstand duty beside the bed. Ive been carrying a colt combat commander in 9mm lately. It was my dads and I wanted to retire it so nothing would happen to it while being carried or in the vehicle. Hopefully the Guardian will work out. If not, I'll be selling it and buying a CDP II or a SA lightweight loaded champion.
 
#99
Re: Have you settled on one go to pistol?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: trevor300wsm</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Ive been carrying a colt combat commander in 9mm lately. It was my dads and I wanted to retire it so nothing would happen to it</div></div>

This is a beautiful piece. Take good care of it.
 
#100
Re: Have you settled on one go to pistol?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: trevor300wsm</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'll be picking up a new STi Guardian in .45 tomorrow. After a few hundred rounds this weekend it will be my new EDC pistol and "go to" gun for CC and nightstand duty beside the bed. Ive been carrying a colt combat commander in 9mm lately. It was my dads and I wanted to retire it so nothing would happen to it while being carried or in the vehicle. Hopefully the Guardian will work out. If not, I'll be selling it and buying a CDP II or a SA lightweight loaded champion.</div></div>

i'd be very interested in this. still on the fence between a kimber and an STI.
 
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