Having Flyers with my Reloads and I can't figure out why.

[Andrew631]

Hey guys, I'm new to Sniper's Hide and fairly new to reloading. I have a stock Ruger Precision Rifle 6.5 Creedmoor with a Vortex Viper PST II 5-25x50 scope on it. With my reloads I'm getting flyers, or just not consistently accurate, and can't figure out why. Sorry if I give too much useless information or not enough.

My current reloads consist of:
Hornady Brass (Once fired in my rifle)
Winchester Standard Large Primers
Hodgdon H4350 Powder
Hornady ELD-X 143gr. Bullet

Currently what I'm doing is:
Cleaning the brass and primer pockets
Brass trimmed to 1.914 in., de-burred and chamfer-ed
Pressing in the primers just passed flush with the bottom of the brass
Neck size the brass to: (Using a Lee Ultimate Collet Neck Sizer Die)
Inside Diameter: 0.265 in.
Outside Diameter: 0.290 in.
Currently using 43.0 grains of the H4350 (Using a RCBS Charge Master 1500 to measure)
Seating the bullet at 2.810 in. (Using a RCBS Gold Metal Seating Die)

What I use as ammo to shoot besides my reloads is the Hornady ELD-M 147 gr., and I get consistently sub MOA, usually around 1/2-3/4 MOA with that, but with my reloads I'm group at about 1 1/2-1 MOA. I have not Chronograph-ed this reload yet, but I do have one.
The first picture is my first set of trying to reload with H4350 powder, and in that set my bulleting seating depth was at 2.800 in. and each line of groups was a different charge weight, notated in the center of each line of groups, also more info on top left corner of each target. On the left target, the bottom center consists of 2 groups shot with the Hornady ELD-M 147 gr. factory bullets. Groups sizes indicated above each group. In these groups of reloads, the brass was not trimmed, de-burred, or chamfer-ed.
The second photo is when I last went to the range to see if the problem was the trimming. This time, I trimmed, de-burred, and chamfer-ed the brass and seated the bullet to 2.810. Again, also see the top left of the target for more info. All groups were done at 100 yds.
The last photo is of course the RPR.
If y'all have any insight as to why I'm having flyers or if I'm making a rookie mistake with my reloads, please let me know. And if y'all need more information i'll be glad to share it. Thanks!

 

[Rocketmandb]

One quick comment: judging by your seated bullet length, I'm taking a wild guess that you're measuring the "seating depth" of each cartridge by measuring the overall length, head to bullet tip. This is not what you want to do and if you are doing so, could very well be responsible for the mediocre results you're getting - especially if you're comparing the length of your 143s to the factory 147s.

You should be using something like the Hornady OAL gauge to first measure the chamber length to the lands, then to seat to x thousandths off - where x changes per seating depth group as you search for the best:

Amazon.com

You also need a modified case for your rifle:

Hornady Lock-N-Load Overall Length Ga Modified Case 222 Remington

Hornady has been making quality reloading equipment and components for over sixty years. The Lock-N-Load Overall Length Gauge Modified Cases are no...

www.midwayusa.com

Finding the right seating depth is very important. I would argue that it is the second most important variable in the equation for a given bullet/case (powder/load being the first).

Questions:

- Have you gone lower than 42.2 gr?
- Have you thought about getting better brass? When Lapua is available for a caliber I'm loading, I always get it. It last longer and is much more consistent. Note that different brass likely means a different load, so you need to do another cycle of load development. If you can't guess, I'm not a Hornady brass fan.
- Have you tried using the 147 gr ELD-M for an apples-to-apples comparison? When I first started reloading, I began by trying to equal, then exceed, the results I got from identical factory ammo (case/bullet match).

One final comment:

You should be using a chrono on all these groups. It is just one measurement, but a very important one as you work to improve your reloading skills. Unless I'm on an all-day shooting excursion somewhere for fun, I chrono (LabRadar) every shot I take. It is also very important in finding the best accuracy node for your rifle. Though it should be noted that the most consistent speed node does not necessarily equal the best accuracy node.

Okay, another final comment:

The RPR is a solid performing rifle. You should be able to get to 1/2 MOA or better.

 

[Andrew631]

Are all those groups at 43gr of H4350? If so have you tried developing a load by adjusting powder charge first? Rifle may not like 43gr of H4350?

In the first picture you'll see that I worked on loads from 42.2 grains to 43 grains

 

[straightshooter1]

As Rocketmandb said, you should being using the cartridge's over all length in determining your seating depth. You need to measure your cartridges BTO (Base To Otive) using a comparator. That will give you much more consistent seating depth (very important to keep the interior volume consistent along with the powder measurement . . . and it can help a lot too if you also sort your bullets by measuring the bullets from its BTO using the same comparator. Then, determining the right seating depth that give you the best results will take some experimenting.

You're Chargemaster 1500 should be giving you pretty consistent measurements, though it's always a good idea to double check that from time to time. I use one too and I do get an occasional charge that's heavier than others, and gives me a POI out of line. But, it's not as big a thing as you're targets indicate. So, consistent powder weight doesn't appear to be that much of the problem here.

Your seating die can be a contributor to poor performance if it can't seat the bullet with consistent runout at .004 or better. Really only one way to check that. I had an issue with what's are supposed to be very good dies from Forster as I couldn't get good runout numbers and they took it back and polished the inside and when I got it back, I say a nice improvement in my results.


On my RPR, I changed the grip to a vertical one as I so often had a flying go off to the right due to my trigger pull. Tried to focus on that and just couldn't seem to get a trigger pull that was just very consistent. From day one, that grip worked and I simply don't have that kind of flyer any longer . . . unless I happen to do a really bad pull. Also, something that helped me was that I got the trigger pull down to 12-14 oz. (removed the pull adjustment spring) which helped too.


Anyway . . . these are some thoughts that just immediately came to mind that I thought I'd share.

 

[isofahunter]

After neck sizing the inside the neck diameter is .265?

 

[Codiekfx400]

I would buy some 147 eld bullets and compare apples to apples.

 

[Andrew631]

One quick comment: judging by your seated bullet length, I'm taking a wild guess that you're measuring the "seating depth" of each cartridge by measuring the overall length, head to bullet tip. This is not what you want to do and if you are doing so, could very well be responsible for the mediocre results you're getting - especially if you're comparing the length of your 143s to the factory 147s.

You should be using something like the Hornady OAL gauge to first measure the chamber length to the lands, then to seat to x thousandths off - where x changes per seating depth group as you search for the best:

Amazon.com

You also need a modified case for your rifle:

Hornady Lock-N-Load Overall Length Ga Modified Case 222 Remington

Hornady has been making quality reloading equipment and components for over sixty years. The Lock-N-Load Overall Length Gauge Modified Cases are no...

www.midwayusa.com

Finding the right seating depth is very important. I would argue that it is the second most important variable in the equation for a given bullet/case (powder/load being the first).

Questions:

- Have you gone lower than 42.2 gr?
- Have you thought about getting better brass? When Lapua is available for a caliber I'm loading, I always get it. It last longer and is much more consistent. Note that different brass likely means a different load, so you need to do another cycle of load development. If you can't guess, I'm not a Hornady brass fan.
- Have you tried using the 147 gr ELD-M for an apples-to-apples comparison? When I first started reloading, I began by trying to equal, then exceed, the results I got from identical factory ammo (case/bullet match).

One final comment:

You should be using a chrono on all these groups. It is just one measurement, but a very important one as you work to improve your reloading skills. Unless I'm on an all-day shooting excursion somewhere for fun, I chrono (LabRadar) every shot I take. It is also very important in finding the best accuracy node for your rifle. Though it should be noted that the most consistent speed node does not necessarily equal the best accuracy node.

Okay, another final comment:

The RPR is a solid performing rifle. You should be able to get to 1/2 MOA or better.

Thank you for the insight. Yes, I was measuring the seating depth as Oal.
How would I know the difference in results for amount of powder charge vs seating depth on the target? In other words, which one affects what in what the bullet does?

I have not gone lower than 42.2, but I know that when I was measuring before with a different type of powder, it like the hotter charges.
I had considered it, but I have just over 1,000 pieces of Hornady brass and I would like to use that. I do understand that the Hornady brass is not the best brass I could be using.
I have not. I was trying to do that but I was taking apart the 147gr. ELD-M to get specs to build my reload even though I'm reloading with the 143gr. ELD-X, but it is the Hornady brass.

Sounds good, I'll try to bring to the range with me from now on. I just got it recently so forgot it when I went to the range last.

Yeah, I'm eventually looking for 1/4 to 1/2 MOA groups with the reloads. Thanks again.

 

[Andrew631]

After neck sizing the inside the neck diameter is .265?

Yes, maybe I have my Neck re-sizer set up wrong, but I don't know what the inside diameter is supposed to be

 

[isofahunter]

I just did 250 with my Lee die NYD and I think they were .262. Can you move the bullet with your fingers while in case? Bullet is .264. I will check tomorrow but it seems like you have very little neck tension.

 

[Fourtyfive]

Since you stated you are using the Charge Master, double check what its spitting out. I have a Lyman gen6 and it can vary weights +/- .10 grains. If you have an extra scale, double check everything coming off the charge master. I typically throw .1 low and trickle up. And definitely check the collet die. It took me a few tries to get it set up for my 308 when I first got it. Make sure you disassemble and clean the oils from it as well and re-oil with some case lube and everything moves freely.

 

[Rocketmandb]

Thank you for the insight. Yes, I was measuring the seating depth as Oal.

Definitely get the Hornady gauge and modified case for 6.5 CM. There are a ton of videos showing how to use it, but essentially what it does is:

- You screw the modified case onto the end of the gauge and put a bullet matching what you're using into it.
- Then you slide it into your chamber until the case seats, then push on the rod that goes through the bottom of the gauge to push the bullet forward.
- The bullet will hit the lands and you'll know you're at your zeroed case length.
- You tighten down a lock on the rod so it holds in place and then you pull it out. Sometimes the bullet sticks in the barrel and you need to push it out
- Then you put the bullet back into the gauge and measure using the attachments that go onto your calipers.
- Now you have your first measurement of the length from the case head to the lands
- Repeat the above steps 2 more times - you will get slightly different result. I usually average them unless one is way out, in which case I discard it.
- Now you have your "zero" for seating depth.

When you start testing for seating depth, start by setting your seating die so your OAL as measured by the Hornady caliper attachment is .005 shorter than your zero depth. That will put the bullet .005" off the lands - do this for 5 rounds. Then do five at .010", .015", etc. at .005" increments to however far off the lands you want to test for. I usually don't test farther out than .040".

Find which one groups best.

How would I know the difference in results for amount of powder charge vs seating depth on the target? In other words, which one affects what in what the bullet does?

Someone gave me this analogy and it helped me get it:

Let's say you have to get your car up and over a curb. If you start right next to the curb, you have to apply a fair amount of power to get up and over, but if you start farther away and get some momentum going, then you'll go up and over with less power.

The bullet is like the car, the pressure produced by the igniting powder is the engine that's moving it, the lands are like the curb. If you jam your bullet up against (or into) the lands, then it takes more "power" (pressure) to move it. If it's farther off the lands, then it gets a nice head of steam first and generates less pressure.

Most people pick a middle of the road seating depth first (like .015"), then work up the powder load. Then when they've found a good powder load, do seating depth groups. Technically you should do seating depth first because the depth impacts effective case volume, which impacts pressure. If you have a load that you think is performing better, then it is beneficial to do seating depth first. Your 42.4 and 42.6 loads look to be the best. Maybe split those and use 42.5 to do your seating depth test.

Once you settled on any one parameter (depth, load), validate with running groups at various ranges.

 

[Andrew631]

As Rocketmandb said, you should being using the cartridge's over all length in determining your seating depth. You need to measure your cartridges BTO (Base To Otive) using a comparator. That will give you much more consistent seating depth (very important to keep the interior volume consistent along with the powder measurement . . . and it can help a lot too if you also sort your bullets by measuring the bullets from its BTO using the same comparator. Then, determining the right seating depth that give you the best results will take some experimenting.

You're Chargemaster 1500 should be giving you pretty consistent measurements, though it's always a good idea to double check that from time to time. I use one too and I do get an occasional charge that's heavier than others, and gives me a POI out of line. But, it's not as big a thing as you're targets indicate. So, consistent powder weight doesn't appear to be that much of the problem here.

Your seating die can be a contributor to poor performance if it can't seat the bullet with consistent runout at .004 or better. Really only one way to check that. I had an issue with what's are supposed to be very good dies from Forster as I couldn't get good runout numbers and they took it back and polished the inside and when I got it back, I say a nice improvement in my results.


On my RPR, I changed the grip to a vertical one as I so often had a flying go off to the right due to my trigger pull. Tried to focus on that and just couldn't seem to get a trigger pull that was just very consistent. From day one, that grip worked and I simply don't have that kind of flyer any longer . . . unless I happen to do a really bad pull. Also, something that helped me was that I got the trigger pull down to 12-14 oz. (removed the pull adjustment spring) which helped too.


Anyway . . . these are some thoughts that just immediately came to mind that I thought I'd share.

Thank you, I just ordered a bullet comparator. That makes perfect sense, I'll be using that from now on.

Yes, I noticed that most of the time it's pretty accurate but sometimes it puts too much or too little and I makes sure, manually, that it is right on each time so I get a consistent charge each time. Does charge weight just affect where the bullet impacts up and down in relation to where you are aiming?

My seating die is pretty accurate and I was giving it runout of .0015 in. so I don't believe that's really an issue.

Wow, that's very interesting! I've been wondering about that as the angled grip was annoying me too but I didn't think it could affect it that much. What kind of vertical grip did you get for it, I'd be interested in getting one too. Also how do you remove the pull adjustment spring?
Thanks again!

 

[Andrew631]

I just did 250 with my Lee die NYD and I think they were .262. Can you move the bullet with your fingers while in case? Bullet is .264. I will check tomorrow but it seems like you have very little neck tension.

I honestly don't know if I'm measuring accurately or not but I'm pretty sure it's right. No, I can't move it freely, there's a fairly snug fit, but not completely sure

 

[Andrew631]

Since you stated you are using the Charge Master, double check what its spitting out. I have a Lyman gen6 and it can vary weights +/- .10 grains. If you have an extra scale, double check everything coming off the charge master. I typically throw .1 low and trickle up. And definitely check the collet die. It took me a few tries to get it set up for my 308 when I first got it. Make sure you disassemble and clean the oils from it as well and re-oil with some case lube and everything moves freely.

Yeah, I always make sure I double check the powder weight so that that is not a problem. I'll check the collet die, Thanks

 

[Andrew631]

Definitely get the Hornady gauge and modified case for 6.5 CM. There are a ton of videos showing how to use it, but essentially what it does is:

- You screw the modified case onto the end of the gauge and put a bullet matching what you're using into it.
- Then you slide it into your chamber until the case seats, then push on the rod that goes through the bottom of the gauge to push the bullet forward.
- The bullet will hit the lands and you'll know you're at your zeroed case length.
- You tighten down a lock on the rod so it holds in place and then you pull it out. Sometimes the bullet sticks in the barrel and you need to push it out
- Then you put the bullet back into the gauge and measure using the attachments that go onto your calipers.
- Now you have your first measurement of the length from the case head to the lands
- Repeat the above steps 2 more times - you will get slightly different result. I usually average them unless one is way out, in which case I discard it.
- Now you have your "zero" for seating depth.

When you start testing for seating depth, start by setting your seating die so your OAL as measured by the Hornady caliper attachment is .005 shorter than your zero depth. That will put the bullet .005" off the lands - do this for 5 rounds. Then do five at .010", .015", etc. at .005" increments to however far off the lands you want to test for. I usually don't test farther out than .040".

Find which one groups best.



Someone gave me this analogy and it helped me get it:

Let's say you have to get your car up and over a curb. If you start right next to the curb, you have to apply a fair amount of power to get up and over, but if you start farther away and get some momentum going, then you'll go up and over with less power.

The bullet is like the car, the pressure produced by the igniting powder is the engine that's moving it, the lands are like the curb. If you jam your bullet up against (or into) the lands, then it takes more "power" (pressure) to move it. If it's farther off the lands, then it gets a nice head of steam first and generates less pressure.

Most people pick a middle of the road seating depth first (like .015"), then work up the powder load. Then when they've found a good powder load, do seating depth groups. Technically you should do seating depth first because the depth impacts effective case volume, which impacts pressure. If you have a load that you think is performing better, then it is beneficial to do seating depth first. Your 42.4 and 42.6 loads look to be the best. Maybe split those and use 42.5 to do your seating depth test.

Once you settled on any one parameter (depth, load), validate with running groups at various ranges.

Thank you so much for all the info again, it's extremely helpful. As soon as I get all the tools, ie. modified case, Hornady gauge, bullet comparator etc., I'll definitely do all this. Thank you again!

 

[straightshooter1]

Thank you, I just ordered a bullet comparator. That makes perfect sense, I'll be using that from now on.

Yes, I noticed that most of the time it's pretty accurate but sometimes it puts too much or too little and I makes sure, manually, that it is right on each time so I get a consistent charge each time. Does charge weight just affect where the bullet impacts up and down in relation to where you are aiming?

Basically. . . yes, as POI moves up or down based on velocity, which has to do with powder charge. But, a barrel has harmonics that changes having to do with pressure the powder load produces and when you find a powder charge that's grouping small (like the smallest) compared to other powder charges, you've found a powder charge that's in a node for your barrel. And that's what you want to try and find.

My seating die is pretty accurate and I was giving it runout of .0015 in. so I don't believe that's really an issue.

Getting a runout of nothing more than .0015 is good and should contribute to good results.

Wow, that's very interesting! I've been wondering about that as the angled grip was annoying me too but I didn't think it could affect it that much. What kind of vertical grip did you get for it, I'd be interested in getting one too.

I got the MPA Enhanced Vertical Grip from Anarchy Outdoors. I wasn't sure I was going to like it as if feels rather large compared to others. But I guess because my hands are a large size, i got used to it in no time. The feature I like best about it is the trigger finger support, which is what really helped give me that straight back pull and eliminated my occasional flyer that went to the left. I just don't get that flyer any more. This grip has another feature for bench rest shooting and that is the thumb rest right above the trigger finger support. That's supposed to help keep as little influence of the grip on the trigger pull. I do fine with using that feature.

Also how do you remove the pull adjustment spring?

It's not really very hard to do , but I guess that depends on how mechanically inclined one is. Here's a YouTube video that shows you exactly how to do it. I did this when I first got my RPR .308 and I haven't had any issue at all with that spring out now for close to 6,000 rounds. Just be sure you keep the trigger blade in place for safety so there's no problem with things like slam firing.

 

[Cerwinski]

I'd back off the powder charge a bit. IIRC 43.0 is quite a bit over max. Have you tried any loads between, say, 41-42 or so? There is a good node at about 41.5 that shoots well in most guns.

 

[Sticks]

Depending on how well your chamber was cut, the modified case is not going to give you very accurate numbers, just a ballpark.

***NOTE if you can take an unsized fired case and close the bolt on it with little to no resistance, measure that case (base to datum line) this is what you should set your sizing die to. It will extend brass life significantly. Do this again after the next firing. If your bolt still closes easy, then measure and set your sizing die to that. Rinse and repeat until you have a firm bolt, then bump your case shoulder back 0.002.

Hornady modified cases are set to SAMMI sizes which are generally a fair bit shorter than chamber, but when you use the tool, you are pushing the shoulder of that short case into the shoulder of the chamber. I.E. - If your chamber is .010 longer than SAMMI, then your measurements for base to bullet ogive/lands are going to be that much off. Been there, done that, .013 jump was what the damn tool told me was where my lands were at in one of my rifles. Hornady case 1.110. My chamber 1.123


Best method IMO is a once fired case from your rifle, and the neck barely sized no shoulder bump unless the bolt will not close or is firm, with .002 neck tension and then take a dremmel and split the neck to the bullet is held firmly, but not so much that you can't push it in and out with your fingers (modest pressure). I prefer having just a tiny amount of neck tension. ***You can also pop out the primer and drill and tap your fired case so you can use the above mentioned tool. http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2015/04/make-your-own-modified-case-for-hornady-o-a-l-gauge/

Start a bullet in that case and chamber it, close the bolt. This will push the bullet into the case as it contacts the lands, Carefully open the bolt and extract the case then measure it. Rinse and repeat until you get 3 measurements that are within .003 of each other.

Sizing Die - I am not familiar with that particular die, but I have not heard a lot of good things on the Lee rifle sizing Dies. You want sub .5 ammo, spend the money on Forester, Redding, RCBS bushing dies to start.

Most people aim for .002 neck tension on a bolt gun, measure the average case neck thickness and add that (x2) to the bullet dia (0.264). Buy 3 bushings. One at that number, one above, one below. I.E. Neck thickness average is .011:

0.264 + (.011x2) -0.002 = 0.284

Buy a 0.285, 0.284, and 0.283 bushing. Yes you end up with two bushings you will likely never use, but it beats buying one and finding out it is not the right size you need.

Powder Charge - Do a proper load workup with a chrono. Not sure where you got that charge weight you are using. Hodgden shows for that powder that max load is 41.8 grains with a 143 gr bullet. Start at 35.9 and make 3-5 loads in .4gr increments. Start with the lowest and stop if you get firm bolt, flat or cratered primers, ejector marks and so on.

Just picking a number that someone else happens to use in their load is a sure way to proof test your rifle and the PPE that you may be using, and the other shooters around you.

You are looking for low ES and SD numbers. May be a 1.5" group, but you can adjust the seating depth and tighten the group up on the next go around.

 

[Precision Underground]

If you want to duplicate the 147 load you need to get some 147s. Those bullets may look pretty much the same but they are not. You 100% need to measure your chamber and measure to the ogive so you know where the bullet is in relation to the lands. I’d say starting your charge weights at 35gr is way too low. This will waste time and components. Start at 40 and make 3-5 each in .2-.3 gr increments up to 42.5 as long as you don’t get pressure. I typically will just load a little above published max down about 1.5 grains because I only care about the faster nodes. If a combo won’t shoot in a fast nose I will just move to a different combo.

An important step a lot of people skip is shooting them round-robin. Load 42.5 in the mag first and load until the lightest weight goes in the mag last(gets shot first). Try to put your targets close together so you don’t have to change your position much to go to the next target. Make sure to be consistent on each shot so you don’t influence the target with your position.

If you aren’t comfortable behind the rifle it will be really hard to discern what is load is doing what. A load test is a science experiment and can either tell you a lot or tell you nothing depending on how well you can take YOU out of the equation. Are the two factory groups on that target from the same position woth the same POA? If yes that means your POI is moving between groups, likely due to differences in your position.This can make load teats nearly impossible to read until you can get your position consistent enough to find a repeatable POI for POA.

 

[ditter]

I have the same rifle and shoot the same bullets, although in 140 grain. That RPR should be sub-MOA all day with good factory match ammo and a factory barrel. When I was starting, my groups were awful. But what was said above about first trying to replicate a factory round is correct. Don't discount the research the guys at Hornady do.

1. In all your starting reloads, use the factory measurements (Case length, headspace, CBTO) to start and you will be close. You can adjust from there. The adjustments will not be that big. I full-length size every firing.
2. The chronograph is your friend. Do a proper load development with velocities and SD as the focus, not group size. Chrono the factory ammo and then compare it with your reloads. For me, I did 39.0-43.0 in .3 grain increments. See what the rifle likes and doesn't like. If you don't get the SD's down, you're going to have troubles at longer distances.
3. For just pennies per shot, upgrade your primers and brass. I don't care if you have 10,000 free Hornady cases. Lapua and Norma are much better. I started collecting Lapua brass by buying Berger factory ammo. Primers are probably not as important, but for less than two cents, you can get benchrest CCI or Federal Match primers.
4. The Hornady OAL gauge is a good tool. I wouldn't buy the modified case. Instead, send two pieces of once fired brass to Hornady and have them tap it for you. It's only about 15 bucks or so and you'll have them back in a week. This way, you know you have brass that was from your chamber.
5. Keep your Chargemaster honest by checking the scale every now again while reloading. Once I found my desired charge weight, I just found a brass washer that happened to weigh the same amount. So every ten rounds or so, I just throw the brass washer on there to verify the reading. Never a bad idea to keep a beam scale on hand also.

In any event, I have the same rifle and bullets, so I've probably made every mistake you've made (or will make). Feel free to PM me with any questions.

 

[918v]

After neck sizing the inside the neck diameter is .265?

Measurement error

 

[culater]

42.6 is your load because your vertical spread is very small. You horizontal is because of you pulling or pushing your shots.

 

[1moaoff]

@Andrew631

What part of the country are you in? You may be surprised by the help you can get in person in 5 min.and you may be close to someone.

 

[Darkside-Six]

What have you done as far as load work up? Looks to me like you’re not in your optimal node for charge weight.

 

[Andrew631]

@Andrew631

What part of the country are you in? You may be surprised by the help you can get in person in 5 min.and you may be close to someone.

I'm in Houston TX.

 

[Andrew631]

What have you done as far as load work up? Looks to me like you’re not in your optimal node for charge weight.

You're right, I'm probably not. after reading everything, I'm going to redo my load work up

 

[Andrew631]

I'd back off the powder charge a bit. IIRC 43.0 is quite a bit over max. Have you tried any loads between, say, 41-42 or so? There is a good node at about 41.5 that shoots well in most guns.

Yeah, I'm probably just going to redo my load work up

 

[MikeMcCasland]

Andrew - You shoot at Bayou out off 288? I'll be there shooting a 1k match on Sunday morning. I've burned out a few 6.5CM barrels in my time. I can help you sort it out pretty quick if you need, and I've got an LabRadar in the truck too.

That said, I'll touch on a couple of things high-level.

1.) It sounds like you're not FL sizing your brass. You can use the Lee die for the neck, that's fine, but you've got to size that case, and more importantly set the shoulder back the exact same every time. Failure to bump the shoulder consistently will mean your bullets OAL relative to the lands is different as the shoulder blows forward. Eventually, you'll have trouble chambering the rounds....essentially it means what you're doing isn't consistent.

1a. - It sounds like your'e getting a Hornady OAL gauge...get the Hornady headspace comparator too. It's a very similar kit, but measures your shoulder bump. You should be using an FL sizing die to bump that shoulder back .002.

2.) Like others have said, seating depth is of paramount importance to load development. It's equally as critical as finding the right charge weight.

3.) Your chargemaster isn't holding you back at 100 yards like that. Full stop. You can quit looking at powder charge accuracy being a cause. It's flat out not causing that. Your powder node is probably going to be ~.3gr wide in what you're running.

4.) You're running those loads hot. I can guarantee it right now. That may sound great for ballistics, but you're going to trash those primer pockets with the quickness, and you're likely in a scatter node.

5.) Gun handling. Are you 100% sure you're consistently shooting as well as you say with factory ammo? You need to be using a good rest/bipod and rear bag. If you're not an expert with a squeeze bag, then get an eared bag. Make sure your shoulder and cheek pressure is 100% consistent.

As far as load dev, here's what I'd suggest:

Find your powder node.
1.) Load up that 147 .020" off the lands touch depth starting at 40.5gr. Load in .2gr increments until 42.5. (yes, this sound tedious, but loading in .3gr will skip right over a node in a 6.5CM).
2.) Assess groups for vertical dispersion. You'll usually find ~2-3x charge weights that don't move much vertically. The next charge weight you're going to test should be right in the middle of that 'node' you've found.

You're now ready to find your seating depth.

1.) All depth testing will be done using the charge weight node you found in the first test.
2.) Load up 3-5 rounds .005 off the lands, and continue seating .005 deeper until you're ~.030-.040" off.
3.) Go shoot these rounds. You'll observe the gun shooting 'just average', and then it'll start running them in the same hole once you get close to your ideal depth. Soon after, it'll probably open back up as you move away from the depth.
4.) Conduct analysis - find out at what depth you think it's shooting the best.

You're now ready to confirm the load.

1.) You'll want to load up ~10 rounds of what you think is your ideal load.
2.) Load up a ~5 at .1gr +/- your powder node to see what it does. You're basically trying to find the edge of your charge weight node.
3.) Load up a couple at your earlier established charge weight, but use your depth +/-.005.

Go shoot.

This last test is really just confirmation and fine tuning.

 

[Andrew631]

If you want to duplicate the 147 load you need to get some 147s. Those bullets may look pretty much the same but they are not. You 100% need to measure your chamber and measure to the ogive so you know where the bullet is in relation to the lands. I’d say starting your charge weights at 35gr is way too low. This will waste time and components. Start at 40 and make 3-5 each in .2-.3 gr increments up to 42.5 as long as you don’t get pressure. I typically will just load a little above published max down about 1.5 grains because I only care about the faster nodes. If a combo won’t shoot in a fast nose I will just move to a different combo.

An important step a lot of people skip is shooting them round-robin. Load 42.5 in the mag first and load until the lightest weight goes in the mag last(gets shot first). Try to put your targets close together so you don’t have to change your position much to go to the next target. Make sure to be consistent on each shot so you don’t influence the target with your position.

If you aren’t comfortable behind the rifle it will be really hard to discern what is load is doing what. A load test is a science experiment and can either tell you a lot or tell you nothing depending on how well you can take YOU out of the equation. Are the two factory groups on that target from the same position woth the same POA? If yes that means your POI is moving between groups, likely due to differences in your position.This can make load teats nearly impossible to read until you can get your position consistent enough to find a repeatable POI for POA.

I'll try that out thanks

 

[Andrew631]

I have the same rifle and shoot the same bullets, although in 140 grain. That RPR should be sub-MOA all day with good factory match ammo and a factory barrel. When I was starting, my groups were awful. But what was said above about first trying to replicate a factory round is correct. Don't discount the research the guys at Hornady do.

1. In all your starting reloads, use the factory measurements (Case length, headspace, CBTO) to start and you will be close. You can adjust from there. The adjustments will not be that big. I full-length size every firing.
2. The chronograph is your friend. Do a proper load development with velocities and SD as the focus, not group size. Chrono the factory ammo and then compare it with your reloads. For me, I did 39.0-43.0 in .3 grain increments. See what the rifle likes and doesn't like. If you don't get the SD's down, you're going to have troubles at longer distances.
3. For just pennies per shot, upgrade your primers and brass. I don't care if you have 10,000 free Hornady cases. Lapua and Norma are much better. I started collecting Lapua brass by buying Berger factory ammo. Primers are probably not as important, but for less than two cents, you can get benchrest CCI or Federal Match primers.
4. The Hornady OAL gauge is a good tool. I wouldn't buy the modified case. Instead, send two pieces of once fired brass to Hornady and have them tap it for you. It's only about 15 bucks or so and you'll have them back in a week. This way, you know you have brass that was from your chamber.
5. Keep your Chargemaster honest by checking the scale every now again while reloading. Once I found my desired charge weight, I just found a brass washer that happened to weigh the same amount. So every ten rounds or so, I just throw the brass washer on there to verify the reading. Never a bad idea to keep a beam scale on hand also.

In any event, I have the same rifle and bullets, so I've probably made every mistake you've made (or will make). Feel free to PM me with any questions.

I'm defintely going to be using my chronograph more, and I am upgrading my Primers to benchrest CCI Primers. How would I send in the brass to Hornady to have them Drilled and Taped? Thanks

 

[Precision Underground]

I'm defintely going to be using my chronograph more, and I am upgrading my Primers to benchrest CCI Primers. How would I send in the brass to Hornady to have them Drilled and Taped? Thanks

Hornady brass and Winchester primers are fine to get you 1/2 moa. I use Winchester primers in my 300 Norma and it shoots lights out. You don’t need Lapua brass and a $500 press to make good ammo. You just need to go about it with the right steps to lead you to the correct load. Look up the original article on doing the OCW test. Read it twice and follow it exactly. People for some reason always take a few parts from it and skip some parts. Don’t do that. Like I said, it’s a science experiment. If you cut corners you will miss the data that leads you to the correct load.

 

[Andrew631]

Andrew - You shoot at Bayou out off 288? I'll be there shooting a 1k match on Sunday morning. I've burned out a few 6.5CM barrels in my time. I can help you sort it out pretty quick if you need, and I've got an LabRadar in the truck too.

That said, I'll touch on a couple of things high-level.

1.) It sounds like you're not FL sizing your brass. You can use the Lee die for the neck, that's fine, but you've got to size that case, and more importantly set the shoulder back the exact same every time. Failure to bump the shoulder consistently will mean your bullets OAL relative to the lands is different as the shoulder blows forward. Eventually, you'll have trouble chambering the rounds....essentially it means what you're doing isn't consistent.

1a. - It sounds like your'e getting a Hornady OAL gauge...get the Hornady headspace comparator too. It's a very similar kit, but measures your shoulder bump. You should be using an FL sizing die to bump that shoulder back .002.

2.) Like others have said, seating depth is of paramount importance to load development. It's equally as critical as finding the right charge weight.

3.) Your chargemaster isn't holding you back at 100 yards like that. Full stop. You can quit looking at powder charge accuracy being a cause. It's flat out not causing that. Your powder node is probably going to be ~.3gr wide in what you're running.

4.) You're running those loads hot. I can guarantee it right now. That may sound great for ballistics, but you're going to trash those primer pockets with the quickness, and you're likely in a scatter node.

5.) Gun handling. Are you 100% sure you're consistently shooting as well as you say with factory ammo? You need to be using a good rest/bipod and rear bag. If you're not an expert with a squeeze bag, then get an eared bag. Make sure your shoulder and cheek pressure is 100% consistent.

As far as load dev, here's what I'd suggest:

Find your powder node.
1.) Load up that 147 .020" off the lands touch depth starting at 40.5gr. Load in .2gr increments until 42.5. (yes, this sound tedious, but loading in .3gr will skip right over a node in a 6.5CM).
2.) Assess groups for vertical dispersion. You'll usually find ~2-3x charge weights that don't move much vertically. The next charge weight you're going to test should be right in the middle of that 'node' you've found.

You're now ready to find your seating depth.

1.) All depth testing will be done using the charge weight node you found in the first test.
2.) Load up 3-5 rounds .005 off the lands, and continue seating .005 deeper until you're ~.030-.040" off.
3.) Go shoot these rounds. You'll observe the gun shooting 'just average', and then it'll start running them in the same hole once you get close to your ideal depth. Soon after, it'll probably open back up as you move away from the depth.
4.) Conduct analysis - find out at what depth you think it's shooting the best.

You're now ready to confirm the load.

1.) You'll want to load up ~10 rounds of what you think is your ideal load.
2.) Load up a ~5 at .1gr +/- your powder node to see what it does. You're basically trying to find the edge of your charge weight node.
3.) Load up a couple at your earlier established charge weight, but use your depth +/-.005.

Go shoot.

This last test is really just confirmation and fine tuning.

Hey, I don't shoot at Bayou, I shoot at American Shooting Center, but I know where Bayou is and I can\would like to meet you there on Sunday if you're ok with that. To be completely honest, I don't know how to bump the shoulder back, does the Hornady Bullet Comparator do that?

Thank you so much, I'll follow that Load Development!

 

[MikeMcCasland]

Hey, I don't shoot at Bayou, I shoot at American Shooting Center, but I know where Bayou is and I can\would like to meet you there on Sunday if you're ok with that. To be completely honest, I don't know how to bump the shoulder back, does the Hornady Bullet Comparator do that?

Thank you so much, I'll follow that Load Development!

Well that sucks. It's a members only range, and I'm a non-member, otherwise I'd be glad to meet with ya there.

The only reason I'm even allowed out there is because they allow non-members to shoot matches, provided you're on target in 2 rounds.

Regarding the shoulder bumping, you need to be using either a body die (such as a redding), or a bushing FL sizer without the bushing. You can still use your Lee neck die to set your neck tension. You adjust the amount of shoulder bump by screwing the die in (or out) to size the case correctly (or using comp shell holders, but probably easier to stick with just messing with the die).

Here's some good videos explaining what I'm talking about:

 

[supercorndogs]

I'd back off the powder charge a bit. IIRC 43.0 is quite a bit over max. Have you tried any loads between, say, 41-42 or so? There is a good node at about 41.5 that shoots well in most guns.

With Hornady brass. Heavier brass, less powder.

 

[Andrew631]

Well that sucks. It's a members only range, and I'm a non-member, otherwise I'd be glad to meet with ya there.

The only reason I'm even allowed out there is because they allow non-members to shoot matches, provided you're on target in 2 rounds.

Regarding the shoulder bumping, you need to be using either a body die (such as a redding), or a bushing FL sizer without the bushing. You can still use your Lee neck die to set your neck tension. You adjust the amount of shoulder bump by screwing the die in (or out) to size the case correctly (or using comp shell holders, but probably easier to stick with just messing with the die).

Here's some good videos explaining what I'm talking about:

Ah man, that sucks. Maybe you could come American Shooting Center and we could meet up there.
Thanks for the videos, those help.

 

[ditter]

I'm defintely going to be using my chronograph more, and I am upgrading my Primers to benchrest CCI Primers. How would I send in the brass to Hornady to have them Drilled and Taped? Thanks

Go to the Hornady website and look up the OAL gauge. At the bottom of the page is the address you can send the fired cases to in Nebraska.

I have the CCI BR primers and the regular CCI primers. I'm not sure there is much of a difference. But I saw a big difference in my RPR when I switched to Lapua brass.