Having questionable optics or build issues, advice needed

[PeteM13]

Hey everyone, this is my very first post here and I’ve debated asking for help because I’m probably going to come across as an idiot. I need some help and don’t have any friends or family to go to. This is a long post, but please read.

I have a Savage Axis Precision 2 chambered in 6.5 Creedmoor (rifle came with a 20 MOA rail). Did a little trigger work and got it where I like it. Installed a Vortex Diamondback 6-24x 50 scope, and a set of open range cross slot Leupold rings. I did some plinking at 100-200 yards the past few months.

Today I finally made it out to Dead Zero Shooting Park, the RO was absolutely great. He spent some extra time with me, and after an ammo swap to 140 Gr ELD match I was able to be on target (bad grouping though) at 1000. However we found out my scope is out of elevation adjustment. I got to 600 Yrds fine, ran out of adjustments at 800. At 1000 I dialed in at 24moa on the turret and held 12 on the reticle.

I reached my first time shooting 1k today. Furthest I’ve ever shot was 200 before that. I want to continue into the PRS sport, but I’m questioning if I’ve built something wrong with my setup. The RO said I shouldn’t be running out of elevation with my setup at this range.

Please give me your advice. What should I do to fix this issue? I love shooting, it’s a way of meditation for me personally. I want to put time into practicing, but I wouldn’t want to learn bad habits on something that isn’t right. Is there anyone who lives close by that I could watch them shoot and ask questions?

 

[Hobo Hilton]

You could start by watching some of the video's here.

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[264win]

Your scope choice is likely at least a big part of the issue. That line of scopes is really not intended or built for long range shooting. You can search on here for recommended optics or tell us what your budget is and plenty of guys will chime in.
The cheapest scope that is known to be reliable for what you describe is the SWFA fixed 10 and 12x.

 

[PeteM13]

Your scope choice is likely at least a big part of the issue. That line of scopes is really not intended or built for long range shooting. You can search on here for recommended optics or tell us what your budget is and plenty of guys will chime in.
The cheapest scope that is known to be reliable for what you describe is the SWFA fixed 10 and 12x.

for a new scope, I have a budget of $1000. That can increase with time if needed as well

 

[spife7980]

65 moa total scope travel, half up-half down means you would have 32.5 up and 32.5 down in an ideal world.
A 20moa rail would offset that from center for 52.5 up and 12.5 down.

Your scope should have plenty of travel in and of itself. The straightness of the axis barrel and receiver will likely be why your zero offset is still so high above the optic center.

Burris xtr signature rings have some swapable inserts in them that will allow you to put up to an additional 40 moa of cant into your scopes mounting solution and can be had for under 100 bucks. I’d say that’s the probably your most economical way of getting that elevation travel back into the scopes turret.

 

[PeteM13]

65 moa total scope travel, half up-half down means you would have 32.5 up and 32.5 down.
A 20moa rail would offset that from center for 52.5 up and 12.5 down.

Your scope should have plenty of travel in and of itself. The straightness of the axis barrel and receiver will likely be why your zero is offset so high above the optic center.

Burris xtr signature rings have some swapable inserts in them that will allow you to put up to an additional 40 moa of cant into your scopes mounting solution and can be had for under 100 bucks. I’d say that’s the probably your most economical way of getting that elevation travel back into the scopes turret.

Thank you for this advice, should you suggest a higher MOA rail from MDT or the Burris rings?

 

[hafejd30]

Thank you for this advice, should you suggest a higher MOA rail from MDT or the Burris rings?

I’d start by checking your scope. Your rail is correct on your gun judging by the pic. Unless your rings have some built in cant to them there shouldn’t be an issue.

See what your scope has for travel down

 

[spife7980]

Thank you for this advice, should you suggest a higher MOA rail from MDT or the Burris rings?

I’d go for the rings personally. Maybe you like shooting and end up putting a new barrel on and it’s straighter and now your more extreme scope base is set up with too much cant. I’d have sold that original scope base and would then have to make another purchase to correct it whereas the rings you already have what you need at hand to switch it up.

We know you have 24 moa up, @hafejd30 s suggestion to count the down travel and ensure we have the full turret travel range accounted for is a good one.

 

[PeteM13]

Okay, just checked travel. 26 up, 38.5 down from current 100 yard zero

 

[hafejd30]

Okay, just checked travel. 26 up, 38.5 down from current 100 yard zero

So your scope has the 65 moa travel it should

Likely a scope issue. Ideally you should split the 65 (32.5 moa up and down). Then adding the 20 moa rail will give you 52 moa or so of usable elevation up

Either your rings are canted or installed incorrectly or most likely the scopes mechanical center is incorrect

Vortex has a great warranty. Many of us have had to use it unfortunately

Mounting another optic would help. Unfortunately you’d need to use the same rings to eliminate that variable as well

Another optic/ring setup would rule out the gun as a possibility though

 

[PeteM13]

So your scope has the 65 moa travel it should

Likely a scope issue. Ideally you should split the 65 (32.5 moa up and down). Then adding the 20 moa rail will give you 52 moa or so of usable elevation up

Either your rings are canted or installed incorrectly or most likely the scopes mechanical center is incorrect

Vortex has a great warranty. Many of us have had to use it unfortunately

Mounting another optic would help. Unfortunately you’d need to use the same rings to eliminate that variable as well

Another optic/ring setup would rule out the gun as a possibility though

Sounds like a plan, process of elimination seems to have found the potential problem. Shame too, i actually liked this glass pretty well!

 

[hafejd30]

Sounds like a plan, process of elimination seems to have found the potential problem. Shame too, i actually liked this glass pretty well!

Do remember that savage puts out some drain pipe barrels once and a while as well. So don’t rule that completely out either

The front of your base is seated against the action?

 

[PeteM13]

Do remember that savage puts out some drain pipe barrels once and a while as well. So don’t rule that completely out either

The front of your base is seated against the action?

Yes, do you think I would have been on target at all with a bad factory barrel? Up to 600 had sub MOA groups

 

[hafejd30]

Yes, do you think I would have been on target at all with a bad factory barrel? Up to 600 had sub MOA groups

Grouping and bent barrel don’t necessarily go together. Some barrels are bent straight at the factory. Then as they heat up will tend to wonder to their “happy place” and result in stringing on target

I’m just guessing it’s the scope. But you’ll have to test that. Until you rule out the optic it’s just guessing

The chance of it being an optic or mount issue is much greater in my opinion than it being a bent barrel or something of that nature

 

[PeteM13]

Grouping and bent barrel don’t necessarily go together. Some barrels are bent straight at the factory. Then as they heat up will tend to wonder to their “happy place” and result in stringing on target

I’m just guessing it’s the scope. But you’ll have to test that. Until you rule out the optic it’s just guessing

Awesome. I appreciate the help! I’ll be calling Vortex in the morning and seeing if they can’t take a look at what’s going on with the scope. If they say all is good I’ll dive into the issue deeper. Thank you for your help so far

 

[Nik H]

Okay, just checked travel. 26 up, 38.5 down from current 100 yard zero

26 MOA up = 7.5 mils.

I believe my 1,000 yard DOPE using the Hornady 140 grain ELD-M cartridge through a 26" barrel requires a little over 8 mils of adjustment. I would have to check to be sure. I think there may be nothing wrong with the scope but you're using it at the extreme setting of its erector system which is bound to cause problems.

I would add 30 MOA of cant to your set up. I would also run a tall target test to check the accuracy of the elevation adjustments.

Many people zero at 100 yards and believe that they are done. Without running a tall target test, you have no idea how much error your elevation system actually has.

HORUS makes a good one for $15 and is available here

 

[Matt_3479]

If you’re happy with your set up then the Burris rings really aren’t a bad way to go about it. I run them on some of the 22 rigs to get a little extra out of it.

If you are serious about stepping more into the precision shooting or prs at all then a scope upgrade is where you should realy start. With a budget like 1000 there is plenty of good options out there with better turrets, better reliability, better reticles, etc.

Even just stepping up to the strike eagle, or an element titan, arken ep5 or something similar will get you more internal elevation with a scope more meant for this purpose. The element titans are nice optics for the money

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

for a new scope, I have a budget of $1000. That can increase with time if needed as well

Find yourself a used Burris xtr gen 3. You can upgrade everything else around that but a scope is THE most important piece for long range shooting, especially prs. If $1k is your limit, you aren't going to do better. They also have a ton of elevation built in. If you get serious and want to upgrade it, you will not loose any money or will have an awesome backup optic.

 

[Whistlermd]

Find yourself a used Burris xtr gen 3. You can upgrade everything else around that but a scope is THE most important piece for long range shooting, especially prs. If $1k is your limit, you aren't going to do better. They also have a ton of elevation built in. If you get serious and want to upgrade it, you will not loose any money or will have an awesome backup optic.

I've recently picked up 1 of these and have 2 more on the way. Liberty Optics has been great with their pricing for them.

 

[vh20]

What are the three most important attributes of any precision rifle scope?

 

[hafejd30]

What are the three most important attributes of any precision rifle scope?

Holds zero
Tracks reliably
Optics are clear (not necessarily the best) to accomplish the needed task)

Those are mine anyways

 

[vh20]

Holds zero
Tracks reliably
Optics are clear (not necessarily the best) to accomplish the needed task)

Those are mine anyways

Good answer, but it was a loaded question. My "smart-aleck" answer is always:

1) Tracking
2) Tracking
3) Tracking
4-?) Everything else, because without tracking the rest is meaningless.

Your #1 and #2 are the same thing (as far as I'm concerned) so I agree. It can't track if it can't hold zero, so they are inseparable. Your #3 I put as #4, but more so in a joking manner to emphasize the importance of tracking. Great glass is always the shiny object that attracts the inexperienced. It's great to have (and I do, and highly appreciate it), but not the most important factor in hitting targets at distances that require more than a simple holdover. You will NOT hit it if your scope isn't giving you the correct Elevation input, but you CAN still hit it even if it's not the sharpest image yet the tracking is correct. Quality glass is a huge help in spotting impacts and misses, and many other things. But without accurate tracking it is useless.

As mentioned above, on the lower end the few Burris XTRs and SWFA SS scopes I've had a chance to run all tracked well, even though the glass was a bit lacking to say the least. I'd run any of the ones I tried with confidence though, if budget was a limiting factor.

 

[TimK]

Couldn't hurt to check if the rings are exactly the same height. If that's hard to measure for you, you could swap the front to rear and re-test. If you do that, I'd move that rear ring back 3 or 4 slots. Also double check that the front ring is vertically down tight to the scope base. In the pic, the rear looks good, but it's hard to see the front.

I agree that it's most likely the scope, just giving other unlikely causes.

 

[Slides]

Some people really don't understand bore to optic offset or actually worked out their zero point. Most rifle/mount scope combinations will still only be about 1.5 mill low of centre adjustment with a 20MOA rail for 100ish yard zero, nearly any 30mm tube scope under 30 power max magnification should really be on a 40MOA base to make use of the majority of the elevation range.

Sounds like a defect with the optic if you can't get that elevation with a 20MOA base or the action/barrel are banana spec pointing down. Rings aren't too close to turrets or too tight?

 

[hlee]

I have my 6.5 creedmoor plugged into Strelok Pro, and it is calling for 8.2 mil up to get to 1000. That’s a bit over 28 moa at 1000, and just over 22 moa at 800. I’d say that those numbers are in the ball park for what you observed. Your scope is probably working correctly. The RO is just incorrect.

 

[Ronws]

A long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away, my step-grandfather served in the Army as a comm tech repairing electronic stuff in planes, tanks, and automobiles..

Later, he worked for JPL (Jet Propulsion Laboratories, in California.) Then after we moved to Texas, he worked for Collins Radio which was later bought out by Alcatel. People would call him to troubleshoot their computers (another big hobby of his, along with ham radio. He was giving me his old issues of that in 1975 and started me on search through electricity, electronics, math, in fact, he was teaching me the shortcut for differential calculus (single variable) when I was 12.)

So, he would look behind the console or the cabinet and plug in a cord.

"Now try it."

Magic, it worked. Housekeeping had unplugged it to plug in their vacuum cleaner.

TLDR, look to simple stuff. Check the torque on the rail. Then the torque on the base of the rings. Then, the torque on the rings, themselves.

 

[fdkay]

Athlon midas tac will solve the optics issue with a very reasonable price.
An Arken 5-25 is a low cost scope that gets very decent reviews.
Rebarreling your rifle would help, but I caution you against spending too much on an axis, it's hard enough justifying upgrading a 110 action.
You can grow with better glass. You'll eventually want a new rifle, so it is better to put the money in glass.

 

[308pirate]

Okay, just checked travel. 26 up, 38.5 down from current 100 yard zero

This is the obvious problem. You should have more travel up than down with a 100 yd, a correctly installed 20 moa base, good rings, and a scope that's operating properly.

The front of the 20 moa base should be lower than the rear when measured from a common reference like the top of the receiver.