Range Report Having trouble at 1k with 700p 168g FGMM?

[Crapshot]

Im having trouble with getting hits at 1000 yards.
This was my second time to shoot at that distance so I am honestly clueless where to start problem solving. I recently got a used 700p, another than my home skim bed job its stock. Swfa ss10x, aluminum 20moa base and millet rings (burris look alikes).

Shooting at a 19 inch round steel target, im just starting so I have no clue about judging wind in practice however I remember the flag at 1k was pretty steady at 45° down. With the wind blowing almost 90° right to left.

Ok, I shot a pretty quick string of some 20+ rounds so the barrel was real hot.
One shot would land 3 inches high and left so I quickly follow up holding low and right, miss, hit almost the same place. It was a crap shoot from then on, see my hit and hold to correct, fire and watch my hit sometimes right ~15 inches sometimes left? Elevation was almost perfectly consistent with the center line of the target.

Out of that frustrating string of disappointment I had 3 hits at that range.
750 yards was alot more fun for me with the same ammo and same size target. Other than an occasional flyer the hits were constant.

Could it be the ammo? More likely me? Wind? Gun? Scope, mounts, etc etc? A combination of all?

Sorry so long just trying to give any info I think might be pertinent.

 

[kentactic]

Re: Having trouble at 1k with 700p 168g FGMM?

everyones going to tell you that ammos no good that far out..they may be right but i have no first hand experience quite that far to say yay or nay. but of the elevation seems good and its going left and right it may be a wind issue at the least.

 

[Crapshot]

Re: Having trouble at 1k with 700p 168g FGMM?

I forgot to mention it was hovering somewhere between 95 and 101 degrees that day. Closer to 100 by the time I got to 1k.

 

[JuniperEyes]

Re: Having trouble at 1k with 700p 168g FGMM?

Swap the 168 SMKs for the 175 SMK

 

[Soren]

Re: Having trouble at 1k with 700p 168g FGMM?

Range yds/100 x wind mph /constant

your wind was approx. 10 mph from flag

1000/100 = 10x10/11=9 moa windage for full value
constants:
100-500=15
600=14
700-800=13
900=12
1000=11
Your rifle may prefer 175's, 168gr A-max's are worth checking too. Tough to call without being there.

 

[SgtKope]

Re: Having trouble at 1k with 700p 168g FGMM?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Soren</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Your rifle may prefer 175's, 168gr A-max's are worth checking too. Tough to call without being there. </div></div>

Definetly worth a shot (pun intended).

 

[Force_Multiplier]

Re: Having trouble at 1k with 700p 168g FGMM?

generally speaking... the 168 has hit the transonic barrier at about 900-950yds... that's where it dies, it gets unpredictable, as you just found out... also, w/ you being new, you're probably not noticing the small wind changes at 1000yds, again 168s are more effected by the wind out there, try just about any bullet with a higher BC... there's a reason 175SMKs/178AMAXs work

 

[Crapshot]

Re: Having trouble at 1k with 700p 168g FGMM?

Thanks I will get some 175 or 178gr ordered and try it again, and obviously work on wind. Honestly I wasn't expecting it to be that difficult looking through the scope. I think I forgot to mention it was off a bench, rear bag, front wooden "rest". I need to invest in some good bags and or a front rest. Next time, however, ill try prone with more capable ammo and re-read what I've already forgotten about judging wind.

Thanks again any and all advice is appreciated

 

[ryhag1]

Re: Having trouble at 1k with 700p 168g FGMM?

So many variables to consider. I do think the 175 would be better suited. 1k is hard. Good luck

 

[CleanMoostang]

Re: Having trouble at 1k with 700p 168g FGMM?

If your looking to go out like that, youll need some 175+'s.

Dont get me wrong, I can hit steel at 950+ with 147gr Hornady SST's but if your looking to get consistancy and not have to adjust every 2-3 shots, you need better ammo.

Best of luck

 

[mkollman74]

Re: Having trouble at 1k with 700p 168g FGMM?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: force_multiplier</div><div class="ubbcode-body">generally speaking... the 168 has hit the transonic barrier at about 900-950yds... that's where it dies, it gets unpredictable, as you just found out... also, w/ you being new, you're probably not noticing the small wind changes at 1000yds, again 168s are more effected by the wind out there, try just about any bullet with a higher BC... there's a reason 175SMKs/178AMAXs work </div></div>

This^^^^^^

 

[notquiteright]

Re: Having trouble at 1k with 700p 168g FGMM?

I find the 168 reliable to 1000 yards at elevations above 1000'.

I have watched lots of newbies flail away at 1000 yards with a wide variety of 308 rifles, and ammo.

Your low power scope does you no favors unless a trained spotter is looking over your shoulder with a good scope.

Chasing your last round in a full value wind is a beyotch. Experienced spotters can pull their hair out trying to get a newbie on steel under such conditions.

A flag at the 1000 yard line is telling you about wind you will never shoot. Mirage around 700 to 800 yards means ALOT more.

Not to knock your shooting skills but it is hard to miss 2MOA at 700 yards. I had two canadiens using a DPMS have two rounds in the air before the rounds hit.

But any 308 round is stretching out to go from 700 to 1000. Shooter needs lots of wind reading,(that's mirage reading to you few from Luma Linda) skills along with excellent fundimentals. He needs to not chase his shots but compare conditions of that last shot to now and then correct POA.

It aint easy and I recommend you get out there at sunrise to shoot in much calmer air to see if its the ammo.

That does assume you can hold hard.

Now if you are going to spend your shooting career out past 700 yards or if your range babes are only impressed by a man who can out past 700 I'd recommend dropping the SMK all together and go AMAX, 178 if you want.

Good Luck

 

[turbo54]

Re: Having trouble at 1k with 700p 168g FGMM?

175s are certainly superior to 168s.

That said, I've done 1000 at thunder valley with 168s at 2700fps with no problem.

 

[Crapshot]

Re: Having trouble at 1k with 700p 168g FGMM?

Are there any suggestions of factory loads that might work well at 1000 yrds? I have been eyeing usa-ammo's 175gr match ammo after reading some good reviews and at $15 a box their worth a try right. I shot some 168 ppu match that grouped well so i mivht give thier 175s a go as well

 

[Crapshot]

Re: Having trouble at 1k with 700p 168g FGMM?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: notquiteright</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I find the 168 reliable to 1000 yards at elevations above 1000'.

I have watched lots of newbies flail away at 1000 yards with a wide variety of 308 rifles, and ammo.

Your low power scope does you no favors unless a trained spotter is looking over your shoulder with a good scope.

Chasing your last round in a full value wind is a beyotch. Experienced spotters can pull their hair out trying to get a newbie on steel under such conditions.

A flag at the 1000 yard line is telling you about wind you will never shoot. Mirage around 700 to 800 yards means ALOT more.

Not to knock your shooting skills but it is hard to miss 2MOA at 700 yards. I had two canadiens using a DPMS have two rounds in the air before the rounds hit.

But any 308 round is stretching out to go from 700 to 1000. Shooter needs lots of wind reading,(that's mirage reading to you few from Luma Linda) skills along with excellent fundimentals. He needs to not chase his shots but compare conditions of that last shot to now and then correct POA.

It aint easy and I recommend you get out there at sunrise to shoot in much calmer air to see if its the ammo.

That does assume you can hold hard.

Now if you are going to spend your shooting career out past 700 yards or if your range babes are only impressed by a man who can out past 700 I'd recommend dropping the SMK all together and go AMAX, 178 if you want.

Good Luck </div></div>


Yeah i need to get the wind down for sure. What i got so frustrated at was i sent 3 quick rnds holding the same poa and having 3 wildly different poi's. I have been working on my fundamentals with a 22 i "built" long before i ordered this gun. Im not saying i have it down pat and im ready to compete by any means, i simply did not know how much more a projectile is effected by the many variables at 1000 yards vs. 750. I wish there were targets at 8 and 900 so I could get a better idea of how the bullet is effected at said distances. Maybe i can talk em into setting some at varying distances if they arent real busy

 

[notquiteright]

Re: Having trouble at 1k with 700p 168g FGMM?

Your come-up chart shows you just how hard the 308 is working to go 1000 yards compared to 750. Double the elevation for the additional 250 yards. Your chunking that rock pretty high into the air to get out to 1000.

Wind reading, even with flags, is rough. Do you know the difference between a 12 MPH flag and a 14MPH one? 2MPH is 2MOA in a full value wind and that is the width of your target. Let that wind change value and speed just a bit at the same time and you are up that creek.

The DPMS has the advantage of not breaking cheek weld to reload. A good semi with good ammo can easily rapid fire a few rounds far better than a bolt gun for the average shooter.

Speaking of 22's can you rapid fire 3 rounds at a 200 yard 2" target and hit?

There is a damn good reason 1000 yard hits are rare in one man tacticool matches if the 308 is involved.

Get a spotter out there with you who can see trace and mirage.

When it comes to ammo and 1000 yards, bargain ammo is no bargain. Until your the mack daddy of the 1K line good ammo is a must. Hornaday aint cheap but the Amax is great.

As long as we are thinking on this your eyes must be great, I used to use a 10X scope for 1000 yard 2MOA steel but I had a great spotter on a scope directing me. I couldn't tell 12" from 6" off steel through my 10X loopy.

Guys who depend on range flags for wind calls are in for a rough trip. Ask any experienced match shooter and he will have a ton of flag stories- one was right and one was left, one was full value and one was half, one was full out and one was half up.

Mirage is tempermental and she is moody. She fades in low humidity and makes a curtain when its muggy out. But learn to read her and your game jumps up a notch, maybe two, don't know how well you shoot now.

Alot of the deck is stacked against a fun time at 1000 yards for you with your rig and lack of a good spotter helping you.

If some sort of team/league/LR BR guys hold practise sessions you REALLY could benefit from their help in coaching.

Good Luck

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Having trouble at 1k with 700p 168g FGMM?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KenTex</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Im having trouble with getting hits at 1000 yards.
This was my second time to shoot at that distance so I am honestly clueless where to start problem solving. I recently got a used 700p, another than my home skim bed job its stock. Swfa ss10x, aluminum 20moa base and millet rings (burris look alikes).

Shooting at a 19 inch round steel target, im just starting so I have no clue about judging wind in practice however I remember the flag at 1k was pretty steady at 45° down. With the wind blowing almost 90° right to left.

Ok, I shot a pretty quick string of some 20+ rounds so the barrel was real hot.
One shot would land 3 inches high and left so I quickly follow up holding low and right, miss, hit almost the same place. It was a crap shoot from then on, see my hit and hold to correct, fire and watch my hit sometimes right ~15 inches sometimes left? Elevation was almost perfectly consistent with the center line of the target.

Out of that frustrating string of disappointment I had 3 hits at that range.
750 yards was alot more fun for me with the same ammo and same size target. Other than an occasional flyer the hits were constant.

Could it be the ammo? More likely me? Wind? Gun? Scope, mounts, etc etc? A combination of all?

Sorry so long just trying to give any info I think might be pertinent.
</div></div>

So far, Notquiteright has given you the best insight to your quandary. I'd add that you need learn what's actually important to getting good hits at LR. Right now your perception of what's important is undermining you. Getting some training on the matter will reveal what's really important; and, with practice, you will be able to get good hits to any target/distance the bullet can get to nose-on.

BTW, what's important: sight alignment and trigger control, the elements and factors of a steady position, wind and weather effects, and shooter/target analysis with emphasis on the shot call.

 

[Crapshot]

Re: Having trouble at 1k with 700p 168g FGMM?

I hadnt realized how important sight alignment was until yesterday when i put my gun in a vice solid and started looking through the scope... It didnt make much of a differnece moving slightly up down left and right, but to my amazement i could move the cross hairs on a target what appeared to be a couple inches at ~75yards, without the touching the gun... How in the hell do you keep a perfect cheek weld through recoil and loading.

And i debated for a long while on a higher power scope but i didnt actually know there was a 1000 yard range 30 minutes from me until it was too late. So i will do what i can with it now while im still learning then throw it on my 10/22.

As for the ammo i will give different types a try and see what works best.

And for the .308 not being ideal for that range, what max range should i hold any expectations? And now the range i go to has targets set at 50, 100, 250, 500 750and 1000 yards, what range would be suggested for me to step back to in order for me to start from scratch working on wind, sight alignment, cheek weld, etc..? Its obvious im not as good as i thought i was which is embarrassing..

 

[notquiteright]

Re: Having trouble at 1k with 700p 168g FGMM?

Did you adjust the parallax of the scope while looking through it? Most scopes do the hula reticle if the parallax is out of adjustment.

The importance of building a good firing position is to be able to repeat shot for shot. There are a few 'tricks' to maintaining proper cheek weld and eye relief but first and foremost is your body's position to absorb recoil and recover back in the same position.

There are 123.56 threads on this all over the interwebz.

There are a few tricks in where you place your ammo and the drill to load and catch your brass without ever breaking from the weapon.

But proper construction of the firing position is first and foremost.

Training can have you adjusting your knobs without looking so you keep your cheek weld.

But proper body alingement means more than no lookie adjustments.

(guessing what means alot in this by now?)

Training, coaches who have experience in LR and practise till your doing it without alot of thought (muscle memory) is what most of us needed to take on 1000 yards.

You attempted the ragged edge of what a 308 can do with a round few in here would have selected for the attempt.

In many ways it is like the first time a girl let you unbutton that second blouse button- what followed was not masterful and very frustrating for all involved.

It is going to take alot of proper practise to master, if it was easy we would all being doing it instead of typing about it online, naked eating cheetos- ahhh that last part might be just me.

One thing that might help about the range you shoot- more steel between 750 and 1000. That is a whole lotta elevation to not have intermediate targets to work out on.

Good Luck and like my last girlfriend told me-

seek help

 

[Crapshot]

Re: Having trouble at 1k with 700p 168g FGMM?

I have a light rem model 7 thats stock in .260, my first deer rifle, i might take out there for fun after i practice a bit and see how much less it drops and compare the effect wind has on it, with the 308. I sure wish it didnt cost so much to swap barrels on these actions or i would get a better set up going on.

Notquiteright, i did mess with the paralax while it was in the vice but i cant remember if it was before or after i realized the reticle wondering as i moved my head around. Are you saying if my parallax is correctly adjusted, that slight poa shift will disappear or at least not be so dramatic?

 

[notquiteright]

Re: Having trouble at 1k with 700p 168g FGMM?

Reticle swim like you saw can happen if the viewing distance is short or the scope is not adjusted properly. Technically your scope has side focus. (The geeks can explain the difference to you better than I ever could)

Play with the side focus knob and see where it helps the most. My eyes are to the point I find leaving it on infinity works 90% of the time. I rarely shoot/look under 100 yards.

About the 260 barrel. You called it a light hunting rifle. There is a really really really good reason LR guys use thick barrels. Barrel whip is stronger the thinner your barrel is. You might be frustrated trying to shoot a thin barrel to 1000 especially if you run it hard and heat it up. Cant rob Peter to pay Paul 'cause Karma is Peter's bitch and she will cut you.

If you want to try and make your 308 a 260 and you can try what some have tried- 155 scenars. There is literally a butt load of threads on the good, bad, and ugly of shooting the 155 skinneys. Might as well consider the new palma bullets Sierra has now. (I would just stick to 168 Amax from Hornaday and learn to shoot rather than try and rig the game but that might be just me again)

I'd also suggest reloading- it makes the per round price cheaper and allows you to tinker with the load looking for what your rifle likes.

I hope you have a safe and sane 4th.

 

[tullius]

Re: Having trouble at 1k with 700p 168g FGMM?

How do you do on a dot drill? I suspect fundamentals.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Having trouble at 1k with 700p 168g FGMM?

KenTex,

What precludes most LR hopefuls from realizing LR success is very little understanding about basic marksmanship. These shooters perceive LR is different than shooting at shorter distances. They think they need LR skills when actually it's the fundementals that they need. But, since these shooters can get good hits at relatively short distances, and/or on relatively big targets, their perception is that they already know how to shoot. Thing is, they're confusing marksmanship for intuitive shooting. Extend the target distance and, eventually, the shooter will actually need to understand how to properly point the rifle with consistent sight alignment for a good hit. Parallax, is particularly onerous as it is masked at short range, yet, being angular error, it increases with distance. But, this is not your only nemesis. And, going about learning about it all as you are will not get you very far. You need to get into some competitions where there is pit service, so you can begin to properly analyze shooter/target error. Also, take a course in basic marksmanship-preferably from someone who has credentials in LR, as well as in the teaching arena. One more thing, right now your emphasis is on your equipment, that needs to change. Unless your rifle and ammunition are defective the bullet will always go in the direction the rifle is pointed. Start thinking in terms of your relationship with the gun and the ground. You want to make this relationship consistent. For this, you'll need to learn about the elements and factors of a steady position.

Also, while notquiteright has given you some excellent insight, others here, it appears from their advice, although well meaning, are not getting to the essence of your malady.. Their mindset is like yours has been, with emphasis on equipment, i.e. bullets. Make no mistake about it, hitting where aimed is all about you understanding where the the barrel is pointed, and being able to maintain it where pointed until the bullet has cleared the bore. Shooting a bullet which will get nose-on to 1000 yards is elementary. Right now, you could be shooting massaged LR ammo from a match grade gun and still have dismal results.

 

[Crapshot]

Re: Having trouble at 1k with 700p 168g FGMM?

Mr. Sterling Shooter, my emphasis on equipment as up put it, is far from accurate. I started this thread in order to hopefully learn what was going so wrong between me and that target. If the ammo I was throwing down there was a likely factor I really wanted to know to save time, frustration, and maybe some money in this process of discovery.

My main question that I couldnt seem to piece together into a coherent sentence so unfortunately it was left unasked is\was, in a nutshell, are all of those variables I have read about (wind, spin drift, humidity, temperature, and the list goes on) a likely root of my problem

Or my fundamentals

And yes I was curious if my stuff just wasnt up to snuff

Or lastly a complex combination of any of those above

So much for "in a nutshell" but I think I got it out in a reasonably understandable form.

From what I have collected so far is, started from scratch on my fundamentals (and get a good base knowledge of long range variables) and if at all possible get some face to face instructions from someone worthy of teaching I guess is a correct way to put it. Another is bring the distance back a bit for now. I admit I really was itching to shoot where even the big dogs have trouble on occasion. Test my now apparent lack of skills. Im humbled now, time to stop fooling around and get some stuff accomplished.

Second is either ammo far more suited for the big 1k, or a different round altogether. BUT, I wont worry about that until I actually need to.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Having trouble at 1k with 700p 168g FGMM?

KenTex,

I don't want you to think I'm doggin' ya. Your perspective on it all is typical from any getting into LR. Getting back to the fundementals is going to solve most if not all your concerns. For example, just by following through you will be able to discern the source of most of your errors, such as not properly countering for wind or trajectory.

 

[Crapshot]

Re: Having trouble at 1k with 700p 168g FGMM?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">KenTex,

I don't want you to think I'm doggin' ya. Your perspective on it all is typical from any getting into LR. Getting back to the fundementals is going to solve most if not all your concerns. For example, just by following through you will be able to discern the source of most of your errors, such as not properly countering for wind or trajectory. </div></div>

Oh I know ur just trying to help and I very much appreciate it along with everyone who has taken time out of their day to toss some knowledge my way, I just wanted to make it known that my "equipment" is not getting anymore blame than my ability to use it that far. I jumped in the deap end head first before I knew what it meant to swim. Guess I should order some ammo and get to practicing..

Thanks everyone for the advice