hBN as a neck lube?

[Ted_D]

I have been playing around with hBN as a neck lube. Seems to be much better than mica. I know its sort of expensive but I bought a pound and its more than a lifetime supply for me.
Has anyone else tried it??

 

[Casey Simpson]

Re: hBN as a neck lube?

I use it too and I like it. Use a teaspoon in your loaded ammo tumble step and let me know what you think. I'm still experimenting but so far I think I like the result of slightly BN'd ammo. I like my ammo slick especially for my semi's; runs the gun smoother so the gun is easier on the brass. I'm referring mainly to AR15 but I will be experimenting soon with ammo for my 9mm Clark Custom Combat.
A round moves around in the chamber upon being struck by the firing pin (the amount of movement can be affected by the amount of headspace / shoulder setback / neck size versus body size) and I believe the sooner it finds its proper place in the chamber, and the easier ejection becomes, the better the gun will shoot.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: hBN as a neck lube?

Conventional wisdom suggests that lubed cases stretch more than dry ones, and might even exert excessive forces on bolt lugs because the cases fail to grip the chamber walls when they expand. I seem to recall reading admonitions against chambering cases with lube on them in my reloading manuals.

Greg

 

[Casey Simpson]

Re: hBN as a neck lube?

I've read that myself and I disagree with it: the round belongs against the bolt face or breach. Certanly, that is where it will be upon expelling the bullet due to rearward moving pressure, after having been first moved forward by the firing pin. Zediker suggested polishing chambers in autos. I tried it. I liked it. I also polish the bolt face of my AR's and get smooth running guns and brass that is absent abrasions on the case head. Smooth results in less torque upon extraction. Yanking cases from sticky chambers? Mine are smooth.

In loading manuals they also suggest screwing a sizer die to contact the shell holder in the ram of the press and proceed to size cases. That's downright incompetent advice. How much is the shoulder being set back? 10,000ths? Sometimes yes. That's 8,000ths too much. For my expectations anyway.

 

[Grump]

Re: hBN as a neck lube?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Conventional wisdom suggests that lubed cases stretch more than dry ones, and might even exert excessive forces on bolt lugs because the cases fail to grip the chamber walls when they expand. I seem to recall reading admonitions against chambering cases with lube on them in my reloading manuals.

Greg </div></div>

Search around and you might find some published data of tests on this. IIRC, the bolt thrust went up between 5,000 and 7,000 lbs in .308 guns.

Derreck Martin over at Accuracy Speaks *might* be able to point you to it. I don't know why I think he was/knew the source, but that's the name that comes to mind...

I suspect that lubed cases would stretch less.

 

[Pirate-69]

Re: hBN as a neck lube?

May I suggest the reading of pages 335-338 in Hatcher's Notebook. He has some interesting insight into lube being on cases.

 

[Pirate-69]

Re: hBN as a neck lube?

For those that may not have a copy of Hatcher's Notebook available, here are the notes on the subject:

Theory developed that grease between bullet and bore would prevent metal filing.

Trouble noted at National Matches and elsewhere.

Testing at Frankford indicated that grease on the cases increase bolt thrust and increased chamber pressures dangerously.

Lubed bullet, case and chamber, using 1920 Match Ammo, gave pressures of 71,154 psi and wrecked pressure gauge.

National Match Rules of 1921 and Army regulations forbade use of grease after Hatcher's study published.

Grease eliminates friction between case and chamber, thus full bolt force. Grease also prevents release of bullet from case mouth since it will not compress.

Numberous rifles wrecked at matches that was traced back to use of grease on the bullet.

One bullet found downrange that still had the neck of the case still attached to it. The case had separated at the shoulder and the bullet and case neck was forced through the barrel. The rifle lands were marked on the case neck.

This sounds like the extreme use of lube, but it appears that any lube will eliminate some of the designed friction between the case and the chamber. How much is too much is the question. The indications are clear that the presence of lube on a case does not increase the safety factor.

 

[Ted_D]

Re: hBN as a neck lube?

Sheesh, I was talking about using it as a neck lube for sizing

 

[ChrisGarrett]

Re: hBN as a neck lube?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ted_D</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sheesh, I was talking about using it as a neck lube for sizing </div></div>

If it works it works, I guess?

Me, I'm now using Redding TiNi bushings and their tungsten carbide expander balls if I need to round out the case mouths, so neck lube needed.

For big batches with standard dies, One Shot seems to be the cleanest, fastest and easiest to use for me, but you have to be careful with the stuff so you don't stick a case.

Chris

 

[Casey Simpson]

Re: hBN as a neck lube?

Apples v. oranges: Boron Nitride is a .5micron granule dry powder-like lubricant of high lubricity for high friction applications. We ain't suggesting putting grease in the chamber or on bullets or on cases.
A teaspoon of Boron Nitride in my vibratory cleaner medium applied to loaded .223 ammo makes MY gun run smooth and the varmint model shoots @.24moa. And the chamber is polished too as is the bolt face; the carrier has a CWS installed and the buffer spring is CS (see e.g Superior Shooting Systems). Update your libraries guys; Hatcher went out with black and white television. We've learned lots since Hatcher; I've never heard of any nut putting grease in a chamber.

We ain't talking about grease! Weez be talkin bout Boron Nitride.

 

[Pirate-69]

Re: hBN as a neck lube?

This thread started with a discussion on whether or not lube affected chamber pressure and case stretching. Information was provided that says lube can be a problem when used excessively.

However, with respect to reduction in friction, both Boron Nitride and grease do the same thing; they reduce it. The first question to ask is, "Is the bolt thrust increased by the use of Boron Nitride"? The second question is, "If so, how much is the increase and does it present a risk"?

In this case, probably not; but how do you know it does not? As Casey stated, Boron Nitride is a lubricant of high lubricity for high friction applications. Would it be considered a better lubricant than the geases of 1920? If so, it should do as good or better at eliminating the friction between the case and the chamber wall.

Yes, it is good to keep your library updated. It appears that my current data says lube, under some circumstances, can be a problem and provides test data to support it. If you have any data on the use Boron Nitride on fired rounds, please share so we can all update our libraries and benefit from your updated information.

As I stated in my earlier post, "This sounds like the extreme use of lube, but it appears that any lube will eliminate some of the designed friction between the case and the chamber. How much is too much is the question. The indications are clear that the presence of lube on a case does not increase the safety factor." Again, I think we are talking extremes of use whether it is grease or Boron Nitride. The question remains, "When do we reach that extreme"? To each his own opinion.

 

[Ted_D]

Re: hBN as a neck lube?

This thread started as basically will hBN work as a neck lube. 2nd post got off track and its now been that way since.

 

[former naval person]

Re: hBN as a neck lube?

Will work as outside neck lube. However I am concerned with the stuff plating onto the neck just as it does with the impact plating of the bullets...Which could then transfer to the chamber neck. I do use it as an inside neck lube...suspend a bit in alcohol and after brushing the necks with a brass brush inside, paint a little in the necks with a Q-Tip. The bullets slide in oooooh so easy! And, in my experience, it reduces run-out. I rely on conventional wisdom and do not lubricate the whole outside of the case. A bolt in the eye ruins your whole day. JMHO

 

[Casey Simpson]

Re: hBN as a neck lube?

You're right; I got this thread off topic. It's my ADD. Gets me into trouble all the time.

 

[Nocalphoenix]

Re: hBN as a neck lube?

How would HBN be any different than the dry mica used to lubricate necks? I have the redding product with the little balls covered in Mica, I freshened up the can with a little HBN and everything is running fine.

 

[former naval person]

Re: hBN as a neck lube?

HxBN is just "slicker" than mica. I don't use mica either. Clean necks on the outside and a TiN bushing is all I need for neck sizing. JMHO

 

[zfk55]

Re: hBN as a neck lube?

It works on necks for sure.
A teaspoon, Casey?? That's enough hBN to do an easy 2,500 projectiles.

Read this about the product itself. We're very involved in this process http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/7197986/description.html

If you want to follow a progress of a specific rifle out to 1,000 yards, check this thread once in a while, particulary after this weekend.

http://theswissriflesdotcommessageboard.yuku.com/topic/6761

zfk55

 

[former naval person]

Re: hBN as a neck lube?

zfk55...answer me this. Since you are interested in this "PATENT PROCESS"...why do my identical loads, with identical projectiles, except for their differing coatings of moly disulfide or HxBN shoot with identical POI and Groupings if HxBN is so superior? I use the HxBN because it works and it is "cleaner". But...is it REALLY superior to Moly? Or is it that when you reach a plateau of lubricity, where enough is enough, it really doesn't matter which friction reducing agent is used? I have used HxBN for some time now. When "burnishing" the bore, I use the HxBN in a paste with well known Kroil,the "oil that creeps". So, I don't have a "completely clean" bore. After a few shots, less than 5, the bore is conditioned and all subsequent rounds are VERY close in this rifle to being the fabled 1/4 MOA rifle. How is your PATENT material and procedure superior. I really wonder if you can PATENT the fire burnishing of HxBN since it has been done for years. Thanks for your reply. FNP

 

[zfk55]

Re: hBN as a neck lube?

Its not my patent, Sarge.
Superior in that Moly, when introduced to condensation, will almost immediately begins an undetected sub-surface corrosive action on the very steel of the bore. This is the primary reason shooters switch horses. Slick is slick, but I'm not willing to subject a barrel as expensive as this one is to any possiblity of corrosion or buildup, which Moly certainly does do.
hBN does not react to moisture.
Shooters will probably argue this forever. I can't answer for or account for your own experience or rifle's performance, but thus far our experience with hBN is absolutely positive.

zfk55

 

[USMCj]

Re: hBN as a neck lube?

For what its worth, I see Molly going away in the future in favor of HBN. HBN is far superior to molly when used as a bullet coating.

As for HBN used as neck lube....WHY? just use a TiN coated bushing and run the cases dry, works for me!

 

[former naval person]

Re: hBN as a neck lube?

My bad zfk55...thought you were involved in the Patent process...I still wonder how anyone can patent this process. D Tubb is selling HxBN bullets now. I agree totally with USMCj that it is a better coating. But, the two coatings appear mutually tolerable when fired alternately. Interesting. JMHO

 

[Ted_D]

Re: hBN as a neck lube?

I need to do a group buy on hBN. I see someone is raping people in the classifieds. His cost was $110 SHIPPED FOR A POUND WITH A RETURN OF $560. Would anyone be interested for say $10-$12 an ounce?

 

[Ted_D]

Re: hBN as a neck lube?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: USMCj</div><div class="ubbcode-body">\

As for HBN used as neck lube....WHY? just use a TiN coated bushing and run the cases dry, works for me! </div></div>

because I dont have the die and I have 10 lbs of hBN sitting here

 

[zfk55]

Re: hBN as a neck lube?

Whoa! 10 pounds? Is it negative 5 hBN? It typically sells for $65.00 a pound. Want to trade a Die for a pound?

So lets get serious about this case neck thing. Typical application of hBN requires impact coating to be successful. If you're going to apply it to case necsks you're going to have to do it manually and <span style="font-style: italic">very</span> sparingly. A pound of hBN is estimated to have coverage for a nominal 300,000 projectiles.
Handling it is another issue I've not seen properly addressed. Early on I made the mistake of gathering the projectiles from the seperator basket and transferring them to a large terry towel. With my left hand. Big mistake. My hand was numb for 3 to 4 yours after that bit of stupidity.
A negative 5 micron can and will penetrate the skin, mucous membranes of the eyes, nose, whatever. A standard mask over your mouth will not stop penetration.
Wear the mask, use <span style="font-style: italic">Latex</span> gloves, do it outside or in a very well ventilated area and be as careful as if you were handling gunpowder around an open flame. You won't feel the effects of inhalation at all, other than the odor. That odor <span style="font-style: italic">is</span> the -5 micron particles entering your nasal passages.

Assuming you already have a proven load, this stuff is incredible with the right barrel and projectile treatment. Bear in mind that your proven load is going to experience a drop in chamber pressure, so you may have to mess with it a bit.
Be careful.

zfk55

 

[Ted_D]

Re: hBN as a neck lube?

MK-hBN-N70(Nano) and was $84 a lb + shipping. A buddy went over board and I got it from him. I have a small Thumler 3 lb tumbler dedicated to hBN and bullet coating.

 

[zfk55]

Re: hBN as a neck lube?

Yup. Thumler's Tumbler. Same here. 2,000 coated and counting.
BTW...... I'm sure you know that the hBN you bought is far easier to skin absorb than even the -5.

zfk55

 

[Ted_D]

Re: hBN as a neck lube?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: zfk55</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
BTW...... I'm sure you know that the hBN you bought is far easier to skin absorb than even the -5.

zfk55 </div></div>

I inhaled coal dust and rock dust for years from the mines. Insecticides, herbicides inhaled and absorbed from farming in Virginia. Im sure this will be less evil than most of that.

 

[C.K]

Re: hBN as a neck lube?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: USMCj</div><div class="ubbcode-body">For what its worth, I see Molly going away in the future in favor of HBN. HBN is far superior to molly when used as a bullet coating.

As for HBN used as neck lube....WHY? just use a TiN coated bushing and run the cases dry, works for me!</div></div>

Not every body likes bushing dies, I have my dies custom made to bump back shoulder and body .002 ot .003 and I spec the neck dia depending on how much grip I want. I do run some bushing dies smaller stuff but on anything larger than 30cal I'll pass on the bushing dies.

 

[427Cobra]

Re: hBN as a neck lube?

I have played with HbN as a inside neck lube, but not as an outside lube, it does make bullet seating smoothe, but I saw no difference on paper so I stopped doing it.

 

[former naval person]

Re: hBN as a neck lube?

427Cobra...You can probably achieve the same groupings with or without HxBN or Moly. But, from reports, at a higher rate of barrel wear without the agents. If you get 1000 more great shots from your barrel...shouldn't you use the friction reducing agents? Seems obvious to me. Tell me how I am wrong. Thanks. FNP

 

[427Cobra]

Re: hBN as a neck lube?

I agree 110% about wear, no doubt what so ever.

 

[Red_SC]

Re: hBN as a neck lube?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: zfk55</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
BTW...... I'm sure you know that the hBN you bought is far easier to skin absorb than even the -5.
</div></div>

What are the dangers of hBN? I haven't been worrying about contact with it when I coated bullets, I didn't know it was a problem.

 

[zfk55]

Re: hBN as a neck lube?

There aren't supposed to be what are considered carcinogen type dangers, but skin absorbtion reaction, rashes, upper respiratory distress potential is there and there are a number of severe allergic sub-skin absorbtion cases documented.
Like with any fine foreign matter on the skin or in the air, handle it with care.
I can attest to having a deep numbness in my left hand for a matter of hours after handling unpolished projectiles still coated with heavy residue.

zfk55

 

[Ted_D]

Re: hBN as a neck lube?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Red_SC</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: zfk55</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
BTW...... I'm sure you know that the hBN you bought is far easier to skin absorb than even the -5.
</div></div>

What are the dangers of hBN? I haven't been worrying about contact with it when I coated bullets, I didn't know it was a problem. </div></div>

I think not much as it is used in the makeup industry. Women are using it daily.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: hBN as a neck lube?

Just got back to this thread finally. I apologize for any part I played in hijacking this thread.

I don't lube inside necks, but if I did, my only real concern would be about introducing something inside the case that may or may not have an effect on the propellant.

In this case, I doubt that would be a significant issue.