Head position

[fastfwd]

So I was watching videos today, of Olympic shooting and of long-range centerfire competitions, and I noticed that in the prone, the head position was markedly different between shooters in the two sports: The Olympians hold their heads vertical -- ears level, with the comb just pressed against the side of their face -- while the centerfire guys generally have their heads tilted, sometimes as much as 30 degrees or more, and are basically resting their head on the comb.

I've done way more pistol shooting than rifle shooting, and of course my head is level when I'm shooting a pistol. But I do tilt my head on my rifle a little in order to get my eye comfortably behind the scope. I just tried some pistol dry-fire with my head cocked to the side and it felt awful -- maybe I could get used to it, but I certainly can't see it making me a better shot.

So why do the long-range competitors not hold their heads level?

I've got some ideas, some of which may be stupid, which is why I'm posting in this subforum:

• Maybe the sports are so different that it's inappropriate to compare techniques between them in the first place: Long-range shooters get bags and bipods, recoil management is a huge part of their game, etc. Maybe head position makes a big difference for one sport but falls into the noise for the other.
• Working snipers need to stay on the scope for long periods of time, so maybe they get used to -- and then train others to employ -- positions that let them relax their neck muscles by actually resting on the stock.
• The Olympic rifles are obviously more adjustable; maybe the long-range guys would also have their ears level if only their combs were laterally adjustable.
• Maybe head position doesn't actually make any difference when shooting prone, and the Olympians' ears are only level because that's how they've always done it -- or because it does make a difference when they're standing, and they want to have consistent form.

Are any of those ideas close to the truth?

 

[BOLTRIPPER]

forget all the movies , forget all the plastic soldiers you played with before you got here, forget all the video games you currently play.........to drive the gun correctly ...that is ....consistently , repetitively, accurately, you achieve a correct bone lock by not lying down on the gun...

the only time the head MAY not be in the complete vertical, is slung sitting, the sling being correctly wrapped really plays on the body and a cant is really tuff to avoid

 

[fastfwd]

to drive the gun correctly ...that is ....consistently , repetitively, accurately, you achieve a correct bone lock by not lying down on the gun

Thanks very much for the response. To be fair, I see some PRS competitors shooting with their ears level. But a LOT of them, including match winners and presumably well-trained military/LE snipers and instructors, do rest their head on the stock.

I'm aware that there are athletes in all sports who excel despite their "poor form". So to be clear, are you saying that that's what I'm seeing in, for example, this photo of a PRS match winner? I'm asking because what feels most comfortable to me is to tilt my head about as much as the shooter in the photo is, and I haven't been able to adjust my cheekpiece to let me keep my head much more vertical than that. So if it really is important, I'll see if I can modify or replace the cheekpiece.

 

[BOLTRIPPER]

second axiom of rifle driving is........don't fuck with redheads, and lefties that are female.....

she is shooting off a rock on a bag, prolly not past 600yd (my guess, i could be wrong in this instance)

tuff call here but the breathing looks to be controlled, and was not in this position too long for the snap shot.........she got a time line to be in also

 

[Derek200]

Be interested to hear what some more qualified folks have to say on this.

I have a FWB air rifle and it shares the stock of their Olympic rifles. Incredibly adjustable. I mainly shoot offhand with it but I notice that small tweaks in the cheek rest angle or the grip angle make shooting much more comfortable ....

But I think at the end of the day. To align your eye with the bore, your gonna have to do some contortion. Until someone changes the ergonomics of the rifle.... may also help to know what Olympic discipline you were watching

 

[Jammer Six]

I would bet eyes have a lot to do with it.

Different eyes bring the scope into focus at different distances.

I have no idea about level-not level. But decades of shooting, diving, sailing and driving have taught me that there's never just one way to do anything, and there's very rarely a best way that works for everyone.

 

[fastfwd]

second axiom of rifle driving is........don't fuck with redheads, and lefties that are female

Yeah, I've got a redheaded ex and a left-handed sister. I'm pretty sure the axiom holds true for more than just rifle driving.

may also help to know what Olympic discipline you were watching

It was 50-meter rifle prone.

My rifle's a Tikka Tac A1, and its cheekpiece is just a piece of molded plastic, easily removable. I think I'll buy a sheet of Kydex and make a few asymmetric replacements when I have time over the holidays -- maybe I can find a shape that lets me consistently and comfortably hold my head level with my eye in line with the scope.

Thanks very much for the information, guys; I appreciate it.

 

[Jammer Six]

Redheads. Nature's warning signal. Beware! Danger! Danger! Abort!

 

[Erud]

You are comparing two very different disciplines. Olympic style prone is a lot more like NRA Long-range/Palma/Fullbore than any of the action-type shooting sports. Shooting off of a bipod is very different than shooting from a sling, and requires different techniques. Your equipment, the shape of your head & face, the length and flexibility of your neck, etc, will all be factors in determining your ideal position.

 

[...]

find a position you can get into comfortably and consistently.....whether your head is vertical or canted......its not going to make a difference.

plenty of national ranked shooters shoot with "poor" form....ultimately if it works for you, stick with it.

personally i try to keep my head level, and i bring the rifle to my face.....i figure if my head/ eyes are level, ide be less inclined to cant the rifle.

it also allows me to adopt a higher position.....which is less stable.....but more comfortable.

 

[b6graham]

one thing to consider. OLY shooters shoot from one position with that setup.

we compromise to fit a WIDE range of positions and angles etc etc

 

[spamassassin]

I shoot metallic silhouette, PRS style and fully prone matches. In metallic silhouette where we stand unsupported for our shots keeping the head vertical is a matter of allowing our natural balance to work optimally, which brings cant avoidance and stability. Prone shooting, tons of shooters just don't do that right. I see oodles got the rifle butt way too far outboard for a vertical head position which of course makes them lean their head over.

When I was in Africa recently I was introduced to a popular shooting sport over there, "Hunter Competition". In some stages I have seen them very commonly stick the rifle butt into their bicep while in the seated position, lean their head over so far it's almost upside down and zing targets rapid fire at 500m. Pretty impressive.

 

[LH_Gina]

Thanks very much for the response. To be fair, I see some PRS competitors shooting with their ears level. But a LOT of them, including match winners and presumably well-trained military/LE snipers and instructors, do rest their head on the stock.

I'm aware that there are athletes in all sports who excel despite their "poor form". So to be clear, are you saying that that's what I'm seeing in, for example, this photo of a PRS match winner? I'm asking because what feels most comfortable to me is to tilt my head about as much as the shooter in the photo is, and I haven't been able to adjust my cheekpiece to let me keep my head much more vertical than that. So if it really is important, I'll see if I can modify or replace the cheekpiece.

That picture is oooolllllldddddddddd and from photo shoot. I didn't know much about fundamentals and natural point of aim back then. These days I don't have that much cant in my head whether I'm prone or not. It took a lot of dry fire to figure out, but when I adjusted the cheek piece on my McMillan A3-5 and A-6 laterally to give my face more room, I found that I could drop down repeatedly without leaning to one side for a clear sight picture (if I have to shoot support side, I drop the cheek piece completely). I don't know what magic unicorn dust Terry Cross puts on KMW's but I haven't had to take any new approach for the Sentinel I have.

 

[fastfwd]

That picture is oooolllllldddddddddd

Haha, thanks for responding, Regina.

Wasn't trying to call you out specifically; yours was just the first photo I found of a winning competitive shooter with head canted.

I appreciate the advice from everyone who emphasized natural and consistent position, or pointed out that form goes out the window in practical competition. But I could've asked my question more clearly. I guess I just wanted to know this: "Given that ideal form is often hard to achieve, especially in PRS competitions and other practical shooting situations -- and with the understanding that accurate shots can be made without it -- what IS the ideal head position for shooting long-range rifle from the bipod-supported prone? Is it the same as for shooting Olympic 50m prone? And is that ideal head position important enough to warrant modifying my rifle to achieve it?"

I think I've gotten a consensus that vertical head position is ideal if it doesn't compromise the other fundamentals, so I'm going to try molding a replacement cheekpiece to make that possible.

My early experiments with cardboard are encouraging; I think it'll be easy to make a Kydex cheekpiece that'll let me hold my head vertical (basically the same design as the factory cheekpiece, but mooshed over to the right to make room for my face).

 

[honuswagner]

My rifle's a Tikka Tac A1, and its cheekpiece is just a piece of molded plastic, easily removable. I think I'll buy a sheet of Kydex and make a few asymmetric replacements when I have time over the holidays -- maybe I can find a shape that lets me consistently and comfortably hold my head level with my eye in line with the scope.

Please share photos after you get that done, I'd like to see how it works. Thanks!

 

[atomic41]

find a position you can get into comfortably and consistently.....whether your head is vertical or canted......its not going to make a difference.

I think this is the answer. Find a consistent position.

 

[BOLTRIPPER]

mcameron said:
find a position you can get into comfortably and consistently.....whether your head is vertical or canted......its not going to make a difference.





lol......................you keep thinking that

 

[...]

mcameron said:
find a position you can get into comfortably and consistently.....whether your head is vertical or canted......its not going to make a difference.





lol......................you keep thinking that

rather than post a dumb ass remark.....please share some of your "wisdom" with the rest of us......

 

[BOLTRIPPER]

rather than post a dumb ass remark.....please share some of your "wisdom" with the rest of us......

for starters, its not going to make a difference chunk of wisdom will not gain you any points or hits when it comes to weak side shooting or transitioning to low light or no-light shots through a non lit reticle....but and however If you shoot off a bench and are a real sweet 100yd kinda blaster...then have at it and lay down and not to worry on form.

 

[...]

for starters, its not going to make a difference chunk of wisdom will not gain you any points or hits when it comes to weak side shooting or transitioning to low light or no-light shots through a non lit reticle....but and however If you shoot off a bench and are a real sweet 100yd kinda blaster...then have at it and lay down and not to worry on form.

...can you repeat that in english...

im having a hard time believing you know what the fuck you are talking about, when you cant even string together a coherent sentence.

 

[atomic41]

Hmmm...I need to practice my transitioning to no light, non-light and even lit reticle head positions. I mean, who doesn't?

 

[b6graham]

Hmmm...I need to practice my transitioning to no light, non-light and even lit reticle head positions. I mean, who doesn't?

let me set my rifle up for a perfect vertical head position from strong side. it's gonna be perfect from the weakside too with no adjustment

 

[BOLTRIPPER]

...can you repeat that in english...

im having a hard time believing you know what the fuck you are talking about, when you cant even string together a coherent sentence.

then to add other stuff i don't know what of I speak.....shooting with sticks, you know them thingies before all the keyboard warrior/snipers that now use tripods.....Sticks, not saddles on tripods.

or.........shooting off your buddies shoulder, or vehicle door, tree limb, or dare i say the use of a shooting sling..........

 

[Jammer Six]

Well, that's a relief.

At least I can stop worrying about you shooting off my shoulder.

 

[BOLTRIPPER]

Well, that's a relief.

At least I can stop worrying about you shooting off my shoulder.

....prolly twitch way too much for me