I was having issues with my new AIAT chambering some rounds. With my 700 custom it ate everything but the AI obviously has a tighter chamber. Using a Hornady headspace comparator with .400 bushing attached to my calipers I measured some rounds I did fire as well as some that wouldnt chamber. 1.623" was the average of the fired cases. A couple that wouldnt chamber are in the 1.625" range. I went back and measure some brass I had previously FL resized, but had not yet reloaded, and was suprised to find the headspace range from 1.6195" to 1.626". How could brass FL resized in the same session with the same die (RCBS) vary so much?? I have purchased a new Forster FL resizing die that I hope may be more precise then the standard $35 a set RCBS dies.
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Headspace all over the place
- Thread starter 03psd
- Start date
This is not an unusual issue to have. Actually, I'd be willing to bet damn near everyone has experienced this at some time or another. Going to the Forster Dies, which I did also, will make ya a happy guy. Did me. So only knowing what we know I'd say right outta the gate it's "springback" or lack there of. But it could be also your technique throwing the handle and/or also lube or lack of. So many things can add to this so here's just a quick way to see.
1. If you don't say use a Q tip and lube for the inside of the neck, try it. You can use case lube or dip your necks in Dry Neck Lube (Mica). I do both, either lube or mica, don't ask me why.
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2. When FL sizing try what I do with my cases sizing and seating bullets. Pull your handle all the way down consistently for each case. Run the handle up and turn your case one half turn and run it up into the Die again. Do 10 or so and measure them and see if you're all over the place or you're good to go. When seating bullets I turn my case 1/3 turn 3 times with some dies. My runout is .002 or less doing this. I haven't had to do this with any of my Forster Dies, only my RCBS.
Your cheap fix I bet will be just turning your cases 1/2 a turn and running them as close to the same pressure on the ram. Give it a go. Would love to hear it fixed your issue. And yes, this is the quick n easy guess/answer without going into all the how many times fired, are they the same headstamp, do you anneal, what's your favorite color, blah blah blah. Give it a go.
1. If you don't say use a Q tip and lube for the inside of the neck, try it. You can use case lube or dip your necks in Dry Neck Lube (Mica). I do both, either lube or mica, don't ask me why.
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2. When FL sizing try what I do with my cases sizing and seating bullets. Pull your handle all the way down consistently for each case. Run the handle up and turn your case one half turn and run it up into the Die again. Do 10 or so and measure them and see if you're all over the place or you're good to go. When seating bullets I turn my case 1/3 turn 3 times with some dies. My runout is .002 or less doing this. I haven't had to do this with any of my Forster Dies, only my RCBS.
Your cheap fix I bet will be just turning your cases 1/2 a turn and running them as close to the same pressure on the ram. Give it a go. Would love to hear it fixed your issue. And yes, this is the quick n easy guess/answer without going into all the how many times fired, are they the same headstamp, do you anneal, what's your favorite color, blah blah blah. Give it a go.
I will just Parrot some of the things that 1J04 posted. Uneven or not enough lube will cause uneven shoulder bump. Running the cases too fast in & out of the die will also cause issues. Work hardening of the brass and spring back can cause issues. Freshly annealed cases will show more shoulder bump than hardened cases.
I run my cases in the die, pause for a second or two on the full up stroke. I will sometimes run the case twice in & out of the die. I use Redding competition shell holders to finely adjust shoulder bump depending on the cases I'm sizing at the time. I will set some of my dies with the competition shell holders to bump @ SAAMI minimum with the + .006" shell holder. This gives me .004" on either side of the .006" holder to bump a bit more or less, depending on the rifle I'm loading for. I load for four different 308 Win. rifle, two gas guns and two bolt guns so I deal with different shoulder expansion.
After years of using different types of case lubes, I came to the conclusion of using the lanolin / alcohol spray lubes for sizing large amounts of cases. On smaller sizing jobs, I use imperial or Mobil 1 synthetic. These 3 lubes give me consistent results.
Since retiring, I've had a good amount of spare time and have done a lot of experimenting since I had been obsessed with getting consistent shoulder bump.
I run my cases in the die, pause for a second or two on the full up stroke. I will sometimes run the case twice in & out of the die. I use Redding competition shell holders to finely adjust shoulder bump depending on the cases I'm sizing at the time. I will set some of my dies with the competition shell holders to bump @ SAAMI minimum with the + .006" shell holder. This gives me .004" on either side of the .006" holder to bump a bit more or less, depending on the rifle I'm loading for. I load for four different 308 Win. rifle, two gas guns and two bolt guns so I deal with different shoulder expansion.
After years of using different types of case lubes, I came to the conclusion of using the lanolin / alcohol spray lubes for sizing large amounts of cases. On smaller sizing jobs, I use imperial or Mobil 1 synthetic. These 3 lubes give me consistent results.
Since retiring, I've had a good amount of spare time and have done a lot of experimenting since I had been obsessed with getting consistent shoulder bump.
Awesome replies guys, thank you. To answer a couple questions.
1. the brass is RP 3 x fired.
2. I use Frankford Arsenal Case Lube. Its alcohol based spray lube. I spray my cases while they are standing up in a reloading tray. I get them from all 4 sides and figure some must get in the necks.
3. I dont lube necks specifically other then what gets in them from the above case lubing.
4. Brass isnt annealed. I havent made this investment yet. In the short term I will continue buying all the cheap .308 brass many guys are dumping as they abandon .308 for the greener pastures of 6.5 and 6mm CM. If I only get 5-8 reloadings out of them I am fine with that. I would love an AMP annealer but cant drop that kind of change for the limited amount of reloading I do currently.
5. I dont have a favorite color. If it helps I have a white jeep and a black truck. My Harley had a white tanks and bags with black tins.
I can see what you mean by the expander ball "pulling" the should back forward as I lower the ram. Explain lubing the necks please. Thanks
1. the brass is RP 3 x fired.
2. I use Frankford Arsenal Case Lube. Its alcohol based spray lube. I spray my cases while they are standing up in a reloading tray. I get them from all 4 sides and figure some must get in the necks.
3. I dont lube necks specifically other then what gets in them from the above case lubing.
4. Brass isnt annealed. I havent made this investment yet. In the short term I will continue buying all the cheap .308 brass many guys are dumping as they abandon .308 for the greener pastures of 6.5 and 6mm CM. If I only get 5-8 reloadings out of them I am fine with that. I would love an AMP annealer but cant drop that kind of change for the limited amount of reloading I do currently.
5. I dont have a favorite color. If it helps I have a white jeep and a black truck. My Harley had a white tanks and bags with black tins.
I can see what you mean by the expander ball "pulling" the should back forward as I lower the ram. Explain lubing the necks please. Thanks
I really like this reply.
keeping it literally Black and White. LMFAOI either use the Mica Lube, open the cap and dunk the neck n shoulder in there and turn the case a bit. There are little ceramic balls with mica powder on them that will coat the inner neck. Or you can put a drop or two of
Case Lube on a Q tip and ream the inner neck. Makes the expander button slide right through there with minimal pulling. I still rotate the brass one half turn just because it completes my OCD checklist for this process.
You already know what you're doing and got a handle on this. Just need to fine tune a tad and you're golden. You don't have to make the jump to annealing to get better results, hell, you can send your brass in right here on the Hide and get it done on the cheap. 3x fired and counting is gonna obviously start showing not only inconsistent sizing but neck tension will start varying more than ya want I suspect.Lube your necks consistently. I like to think it makes a difference. Good luck and good shooting..........
For fucks sakes, don't spray the cases when they're in the LOADING TRAY! Your NOT going to get an even coating or far enough down on the case web. Use a box or a zip loc bag to spray the cases, shake them around and spray them again, then let them dry a few minutes. I use the box method, it gives a good, even coating that I can control.
Try this and see if it helps.
Alright. I have a plastic tub that is about 12"x18" and only about 4" deep. I will dump the brass in there and spray the lube. The plastic obviously wont absorb the lube so it will help lube the cases as I shake them around. When it becomes really nasty, it will be easy to wash out.
I use a plastic tupperware type shoebox you buy at the variety stores. To keep the mess down, I cut a piece of cardboard to fit into the bottom of the plastic shoe box to soak up the excess lanolin. When it gets messy, I just throw out the cardboard and put a fresh one in.
That could be part of the problem. A turret press is going to have some give, compared to a single stage. For consistency, get a good solid cast iron single stage press, use the same shellholder everytime, anneal the brass and ideally setup the die for metal to metal contact with the shellholder (Redding Competition Shell Holder set).
It definetly has some give. It "cams over" at the top of the stroke. Ive thpught about a single stage but damn, its got to be a huge pain in tge ass switching dies all the time. Are there any decent turret style presses that are more precise or consistent.
Would have never guessed you were/are using a turret press. Eveything is still in play, but I'd splurge on a RockChucker Supreme or some similarly priced setup. That slop ain't helping and could be your only real issue.
Using the Hornady Lock-n-Load bushing or a Forster press can make switching dies easier. Some slop/give is the price you pay for turret press convenience. That said, I've had pretty consistent results with a 4-hole Lee Classic Cast Turret press once you take out the indexing and setup the dies in the toolhead to account for the slop. One toolhead for each die set.
The press cam over is the frame stretching.
The press cam over is the frame stretching.
Another thing I use to ensure I have case lube in the necks is I use a caliber specific bore mop on a Lyman handle. I spray whatever lube I'm using on it and place the handle in between dies to wedge it and slide each case over it when I'm about to size it. I feel it somewhat streamlines my process cause I always end up dropping the q-tips.
Doing this has kept my shoulders to within .001" of each other, and completely eliminated my stretching from dry necks.
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Doing this has kept my shoulders to within .001" of each other, and completely eliminated my stretching from dry necks.
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My thoughts:
Did you use some new virgin brass and bump the shoulders back .002 or are you still using the die in the setting for the Remington 700? I use a Hornady case comparator to measure my headspace and then confirm the case is within SAAMI spec by putting it in a wilson case gauge. Th
Did you use some new virgin brass and bump the shoulders back .002 or are you still using the die in the setting for the Remington 700? I use a Hornady case comparator to measure my headspace and then confirm the case is within SAAMI spec by putting it in a wilson case gauge. Th
The greatest contributor to shoulder length inconsistency is press frame flex. The best cure is camover. If you bottom out the die against the shell holder while sizing the case, your shoulder length will be consistent. If bottoming out your die gives you too much shoulder bump, get a taller shell holder. Redding makes them in .002" increments.
I really suspect the old Lyman turret press I am using is a big part of my problem, maybe even all of it. The rotating part on the top where the dies screw in has a big machine screw that holds the thing on. I have to tighten this occassionally and even when tight, during cam-over you can see the turret actually lift. This maybe by design but I'm getting more and more skeptical of it. I got the press from my reloading mentor who used it for at least 20 years, I have had it for another 6 or so. He used it to reload for hunting only so he was fine with the performance of it. If it made 1moa 7mm RM hunting rounds, he was happy. I think I need to get something new before wasting anymore time, frustrations, and reloading components on this old press.
I love Love LOVE my coax but this is a good a price on a rock chucker as youll see and will do anything you could ask of it (within reason, too short for a 50 bmg for example) https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B...om-20&linkId=03ea67ba0325335bb4068403191f64b1
I agree the price is good but the idea of having to swap dies all the time sounds like a major headache to me. I use a decapper, FL sizer, and seater die for 2 different calibers I attempt to reload precision ammo for. This would amount to a 5 die juggling act and I usually only reload 50 rounds at a time or even less when doing load development.
Your making a bigger deal out of the die changes than it really is, a Forster Coax literally takes 2 seconds to change probably faster than your turret press, or any other single stage press with the hornady lock n load insert probably takes less than 10 seconds to swap out dies. I agree having to thread the dies in and out the old way sucked unless you were doing large batches at a time, but when hornady came out with the lock n load system it was a real game changer in my opinion
NEW UPDATE 10/8/17
So I added a Rockchucker with LNL collers. I bought a Forster Ultra Precision Seating Die and I got a set of Hornady Ogive Comparators that mount to the jaws of my digital calipers. I also got a Forster FL sizing die. Using the rock solid RC press I made sure my brass was fully resized. I set up the seating die and was able to load 50 rounds to a OTB measurement of 1.617" consistently +/- .002". I used mica on the bullets as I was seating them and used a consistent stroke on the press. I used a 90* turn and restroked the press to make sure the bullets were seated consistently. Across the 50 the COAL varied between 2.86" - 2.89" but I tested them in my mag and chamber and all fit without any problem. I am not sure how far I am from the lands but I know I am not jammed into them as the measurements of the rounds were identical after my test fit and I am sure it would have changed if I have jammed them. I now know COAL doesnt matter as long as they fit in the mag and I am pretty happy about the consistent OTB measurements I was able to produce. Its all about the right tools, knowledge, and technique. I am thankful to all who help get me on track with my reloading game. Once I get to the range and have a chance to shoot these loads (42.7gr Varget, 175gr SMK) I will report back my results. Thanks again.
So I added a Rockchucker with LNL collers. I bought a Forster Ultra Precision Seating Die and I got a set of Hornady Ogive Comparators that mount to the jaws of my digital calipers. I also got a Forster FL sizing die. Using the rock solid RC press I made sure my brass was fully resized. I set up the seating die and was able to load 50 rounds to a OTB measurement of 1.617" consistently +/- .002". I used mica on the bullets as I was seating them and used a consistent stroke on the press. I used a 90* turn and restroked the press to make sure the bullets were seated consistently. Across the 50 the COAL varied between 2.86" - 2.89" but I tested them in my mag and chamber and all fit without any problem. I am not sure how far I am from the lands but I know I am not jammed into them as the measurements of the rounds were identical after my test fit and I am sure it would have changed if I have jammed them. I now know COAL doesnt matter as long as they fit in the mag and I am pretty happy about the consistent OTB measurements I was able to produce. Its all about the right tools, knowledge, and technique. I am thankful to all who help get me on track with my reloading game. Once I get to the range and have a chance to shoot these loads (42.7gr Varget, 175gr SMK) I will report back my results. Thanks again.
I started out spraying lube in a plastic bag and then started to use my rolling pad and RCBS lube that came with my kit, the RCBS lube and rolling the cases on the pad really helped me get more consistent headspace values when FL sizing and I always use it now even though it adds some extra time to the process.
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Jesus, just use a chucked nylon bore brush with lube for necks. Put a little on your hand and knead the outside of the brass in a bunch. I've been using the same entry level Lee single stage press forever. Never a single problem. Keep it simple like it is supposed to be and stay away from the BS fads people think will make them a better shooter.
