Fieldcraft Hearing protection in a tactical environment

[96C]

Lads,
I've got a few years behind the trigger with the Army, in the field and urban areas.
My whole military career, I've used the standard Peltor ComTac's as stand alone protection regardless of what we were upto. If I didn't have them with me for whatever reason then Surefire EP3's took over.
At times with a respirator, PRR headset, rabintex helmet and all the other crap attached to your face the external pressure will leave you with an epic headache. Our helmets are similar to the MICH TC2000 but have a leather helmet band - stupid.
After a couple long days slamming rounds downrange with our Carl Gustav's I now have tinnitus, a constant high pitched ring more so in my right ear... Which is shit.

Personally what do you wear, what has and hasn't worked for you.
I'd like to keep this specifically to Combat arm soldiers & Swat cops please. I'd like to hear what you have to say about the hearing protection you prefer.

Take care,
J

 

[Lindy]

Re: Hearing protection in a tactical environment

If you're constantly around loud weapons - M4s with their short barrels are about as bad as anything - you need the electronic muffs with foam plugs (or some other kind of in-the-ear plug) under them. You just don't get enough noise attenuation with the electronic muffs alone, and if you're moving around a lot, they'll sometimes fail to seal well.

 

[1943m1garand]

Re: Hearing protection in a tactical environment

I never had good luck with the EP3. Get the Peltor Com Tac II. Buy once cry once. It has been one of the best purchases I have ever made.

http://stores.homestead.com/Laruetactical/Detail.bok?no=240

 

[96C]

Re: Hearing protection in a tactical environment

Lindy you're right, I used to have troubles with the ear cups getting a shitty seal with the Comtac's and my M Frame 1 sunglasses... M Frame 2.0 has the flatter arms which make a big difference under muffs.

The EP3's I've had some issues with, getting ripped by sticks and shrubs and falling out during field exercises. They didnt really stay put when sweating like a sex offender.

Anyone prefer the Sordins over peltor?

 

[Lindy]

Re: Hearing protection in a tactical environment

I prefer the audio response of the Sordins to the Peltors.

However, the cheesy plastic band on the Sordins I had cracked at a temperature near the freezing point of water.

I have a pair of Peltors Comtacs which has been trouble-free for 6 years.

 

[Mk4]

Re: Hearing protection in a tactical environment

Lindy,

The new gel silicone rings made by Sordin make their head phones MUCH more effective. Before I put them (gel rings) on, I considered the Sordins...so-so with the cheesy factory rings.

They're a 100% better now.

I wear Surefire ear plugs and the Sordins with the sound cranked all the way up.

Triad sells them.

 

[deadly0311]

Re: Hearing protection in a tactical environment

we used QuietPro ear pieces, they attached to our personal radios and they are awesome once you get used to them touching your brain. We had a test day with them to see if we liked them and the rep for quiet pro stood right next to us with a air horn about 12 inches away from our ears and blew it, and the electronic shit in the ear pieces made it sound like someone poked a hole in a ballon and it was leaking. They are worth it and they act as a ear piece for your squad communication

http://www.nacre.no/quietpro-pluss.asp

 

[christian77]

Re: Hearing protection in a tactical environment

96C...I use Peltor Comtac IIs with the gel ear cups, they seal better than the regular ones and are more comfortable. When I don't have 'em with me, I use shitty foam plugs, but something is better than nothing.

I try to always have something in my ears to combat over-pressure from blast. Nothing like having your bell rung after a WHAAABOOOOOM

 

[Phylodog]

Re: Hearing protection in a tactical environment

I wear Sordin Supreme's and either Surefire or foam plugs underneath. Seems to do a good job for me.

 

[Simon Templar]

Re: Hearing protection in a tactical environment

The problem with using just ear plugs is that the sound wave will be absorbed by the skull bone and transferred to the eardrums. If shooting much or with “bigger” guns like the Carl Gustaf, I would and I do use regular ear plugs and my peltors.

Peltor have some models design for wearing under a helmet like these:

 

[Jong]

Re: Hearing protection in a tactical environment

If you want to replace the liner in your helmet you are not going to get much better than this. It will also help arrange your helmet better so that you can use something like peltors.
http://www.oregonaero.com/

As for ear pro, I will also recommend like some have said here and double up when shooting something like the Carl Gustav. If you are looking for ear pro to use tactically you can try these guys but they are expensive.
http://earinc.com/

 

[Victor N TN]

Re: Hearing protection in a tactical environment

I really like the Peltor Tac 6 electronic muffs and custom molded ear plugs by the guy that made my Mom's hearing aids. I guess that will be my next investment.

 

[Ramius]

Re: Hearing protection in a tactical environment

I've been using the EAR custom electronic earplugs for a long time. While I don't have the latest and greatest version, they work pretty well for most tactical situations. It is just like wearing a hearing aid.

If you expect to be in an extended firefight it ain't gonna cut it.

The protection it offers is not optimal, but definitely better than foam plugs in terms of magnifying ambient noise so you can hear things. Your ears will still ring if you light off a 223 indoors.

I just hate cleaning internal ears when I've been out extended periods. It also does not work well when it's raining.

Bottom line: whatever you use, if you are going to stick it in your ear don't fuck with it once it is in. Leave it in and move on.

 

[Sean the Nailer]

Re: Hearing protection in a tactical environment

I'm surprised that no-one has mentioned the Howard Leight impact Sports. Do they not fit the bill here? Or do they not measure up?

?

 

[Doc Holiday13]

Re: Hearing protection in a tactical environment

Well I know most people don't have their ears pierced and gauged, but my ears are gauged to the point I can stick a 10-32 button head screw in my ears. I was fiddling around with them one day and stuck the button head side into my ear and it completely blocked out all sound on the ear I did it to. Well I tested it out this weekend and sure enough, even with a AR-15 with short barrel being fired, they worked flawlessly. Probably even better than any foam plugs I've ever used. So I just wear 10-32 screws around now and I don't have to remember to bring hearing protection

 

[roymorrison]

Re: Hearing protection in a tactical environment

I've found the Howard Leight electronic earpro to work significantly better then Peltors when I have no need for coms, usually just for gathering data at the range and such. However, Sordins are probably the best I've used for operations. The gel cups make them comfortable as hell, however for extended operations I find myself in the same boat as you, skull splitting heading after a few hours with all that crap attached to my dome piece. I've heard that the socom-x is nice, but I'm not even sure they're available for single purchase.

 

[roymorrison]

Re: Hearing protection in a tactical environment

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: _Shay_</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Last time I checked, I thought tactical ment silent and stealthy. So if you are in a "tactical environment" you shouldnt need hearing protection because it will be quiet. </div></div>

This is grossly innacurate.

 

[_Shay_]

Re: Hearing protection in a tactical environment

huh, I guess I was wrong on that one, sorry guys

 

[PLeighton]

Re: Hearing protection in a tactical environment

Just got done trying out the Atlantic Signal Panther Headset
http://www.atlanticsignal.com/pages/Frameset.html
Standard profile like the Sordin or Peltor, but the performance was noteworthy.
My favorite feature was the ambient sound amplification.
Being able to hear peoples private conversations across the room was impressive.
Street price $250 @ http://www.btitactical.com/papamnoretah.html

Here is a good write up from the company regarding some of the issues discussed here:
http://www.atlanticsignal.com/pages/thpftr.html

 

[HillbillyfromAL]

Re: Hearing protection in a tactical environment

All we ever had were the cheap ass foam earplugs, and hardly ever wore them because you can't hear shit. Then I got some EP3's, that's about all I ever used. You just get used to the ringing. Worst was underneath a M2 laying down supressive fire. That shit was loud. But I never had the money to try these fancy earpro's.

 

[Buddhapapa]

Re: Hearing protection in a tactical environment


Could you guys text a little louder please?

 

[Sumpter Steve]

Re: Hearing protection in a tactical environment

I run the MSA Supreme Pro X and love them. If I'm indoors I sometimes run foam plugs under them.

 

[caustic]

Re: Hearing protection in a tactical environment

Man, double up no matter what on the carl-g , once you damage your ear you can't fix it, believe me I've had tinnitus for a long time and regret not using ear pro when I should have! I have yet to use a ear muff that will fit under a helmet and reduce sound enough not to mess you up in the long term. if I were you I'd see a local audiologist and get some formed plugs , they have some slick ones out now that you can use different levels of filters in the same type musicians use.

 

[ZackOwns]

Re: Hearing protection in a tactical environment

While playing Army I don't wear any.. On my weekly range trips I wear regular 7 dollar over the ear muffs from walmart that block just about anything..

During the deployments, explosions, millions of hours of feild training i've been lucky enough to have kept my hearing. I should prob wear them more often instead of learning the HARD way.

 

[96C]

Re: Hearing protection in a tactical environment

I'm counting on medical science catching up to our broken arses so we can get all get new ears installed....

While they're at it a new L5/S1 disc, thumbs and knee cap linings.

Pretty keen on trying the peltor around the neck jobs with some silicone seal uprades. That might be the ticket.

 

[roggom]

Re: Hearing protection in a tactical environment

Double hearing protection no matter what. Anything over 120 db and you are damaging your ears. Some muzzle brakes will create sound in the 130 db level and with standard double protection you are attenuating 30db.

Not sure if you are still in the Army, but you should be on the hearing conservation program, and have your hearing checked annually.

 

[DeputyDawg]

Re: Hearing protection in a tactical environment

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: roggom</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Double hearing protection no matter what. Anything over 120 db and you are damaging your ears. Some muzzle brakes will create sound in the 130 db level and with standard double protection you are attenuating 30db.

Not sure if you are still in the Army, but you should be on the hearing conservation program, and have your hearing checked annually.

</div></div>

Doubling up does nothing for you. The most any ear protection can give you is 30 db less than the sound. 130 with muffs is 100. You can operate that for 2 hours without permanent damage. The reason the best it can do is because your skull will pull sounds into your head. (Really being generic in terms to make it simple. It would take a while to have it all sorted out proper for you.) 90 db would give you 8 hours, 95=4, 100=2, 105=1, 110=.5, 115=.25 ecetera.
PS Anything over 90 starts to damage your ears. It all depends on duration as listed above. Any questions I will try to answer.

 

[roggom]

Re: Hearing protection in a tactical environment

I would not say that double does "nothing" for the shooter, but you are absolutely correct. At this point threshold exposure limits should be heeded.

 

[hankpac]

Re: Hearing protection in a tactical environment

I had to do a quick review of the literature to make sure my info was current. At this point I can't find anything to refute this information, although I am willing to be corrected.
Currently there are no well designed studies that I could find showing effective protection to impulse noise. Most if not all studies on hearing protection in the workplace have been in the presence of sustained noise: Jet engines, loud machinery, rock musicians (there is a testing booth at the NAMM show, the music industry convention). I could not find any current data regarding impulse noise injury, that is, noise crated in short loud impacts such as firearms or explosives, and wether muffs or plugs will change the outcome of hearing loss in shooters. Studies HAVE proven that wearing protection will reduce hearing loss over time with sustained noise.
The VA may be conducting some study, but since soldier universally do not wear protection in the field, it is assumed that there will be some measurable loss after a couple of tours, no matter how strict the protection policies on the range.
Impulse and sustained noise also (as pointed out above) reaches our hearing nerves via "bone conduction" from the facial and skull bones. A thorough hearing test will include some bone conduction studies and will help determine neuro loss from obstructive causes.
The point of that last paragraph is that no matter how much protection we use (I always wear plugs and muffs), there will STILL be significant conduction of sound through the face and skull, with a detrimental effect on our hearing, over time.
If anyone has better information from the hearing industry, I would appreciate knowing.
Here is an article:
http://www.e-a-r.com/pdf/hearingcons/earlog13.pdf

 

[hankpac]

Re: Hearing protection in a tactical environment

Add'l info: Link below excerpt:

PERFORMANCE CONSIDERATIONS:

Earplugs worn in combination with earmuffs, helmets, or communications headsets, typically provide greater protection than either device alone. However, the attenuation of the combination is not equal to the sum of the individual attenuation values (Berger, 1983), as illustrated in Figure 1. Note for example; at 1000 Hz the combination of a 26-dB plug and a 34-dB muff does not yield 60-dB overall, but rather about 41 dB. The principal reason is the bone-conduction (BC) limits to attenuation, which are also illustrated in Figure 1. The BC limits represent sound that effectively flanks or bypasses the HPD to directly stimulate the middle and inner ears of the wearer. Another limitation on the performance of dual protection is that the plug and muff interact mechanically with each other, and thus do not behave as two completely independent attenuators.

http://www.audiologyonline.com/articles/article_detail.asp?article_id=296

 

[DeputyDawg]

Re: Hearing protection in a tactical environment

I have been informed two days ago about doubling up. The director of audiology explained to me that the best hearing protection can only reduce 30 db. I got this info because I sustained an injury and suffered some hearing loss. She asked what else I do. I explained that I shoot but I even double up. She stated while it did not hurt it did not help. I have an appointmen with a specialist on Monday may 16th and hope to bring you all more info.

 

[caustic]

Re: Hearing protection in a tactical environment

all I can say on this is that I CAN definitely notice a difference using only plugs or only muffs when compared to using both at the same time in my experience doing so does reduce the sound by a considerable amount.

 

[Insayn]

Re: Hearing protection in a tactical environment

We started using the TEA Headsets Invisio X50 system and are pleased. It works like Peltors without the bulk and don't interfere with our helmet or gas mask fit since it is an earpiece unit. Comms with the mask are clearly audible since it works off a bone mic in your ear. We have the ability to adjust the sound level and comms separately and still maintain directional accuity for the most part. They advertise a NRR of 29dB and an SNR of 32dB.

http://swatheadsets.com/Digital%20Ears.htm

 

[marduk185]

Re: Hearing protection in a tactical environment

still left wondering after reading all this, what is a "tactical" environment?

 

[Insayn]

Re: Hearing protection in a tactical environment

I would imagine a place where communication is important, noise discipline at times, lots of shooting and distraction devices/grenades going on in close confines and proximaty in an effort to accomplish a mission/goal.

 

[Daps!]

Re: Hearing protection in a tactical environment

I fly helicopters now and dual ear pro is a must! That being said if your firing the gustav a lot I don't think there is anything that's going to save you! Isn't there a firing limit per day?

 

[jbgleason]

Re: Hearing protection in a tactical environment

Strictly with reference to the SureFire EP3's, I had the same issues as some folks listed above (uncomfortable, coming out, etc) but wore them as they had been issued to me. I was unhappy with them until I found out they come in different sizes. I got the correct size and they are much, much better. Just hoping someone can learn from my dumb ass failure to ask about it. Not suggesting the EP3's alone for heavy weps or range time but they are great to have for all day wear in the field.

 

[taseal]

Re: Hearing protection in a tactical environment

http://www.amazon.com/Howard-Leight-R-01...5955&sr=8-3

I have that. It's a Howard Leight. I love them...

it also has a 3.5mm jack, so you can plug in your radio, ipod, phone, whatever... the voice amplification works real nice, and it's easy as far as pressure. I used these in the police academy for 8 hours a day, and they worked perfect for me. I loved them!

I'd say don't waste your money on the more expensive peltor. these do the job really nicely, and amplify every little thing.

 

[dareposte]

Re: Hearing protection in a tactical environment

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: caustic</div><div class="ubbcode-body">all I can say on this is that I CAN definitely notice a difference using only plugs or only muffs when compared to using both at the same time in my experience doing so does reduce the sound by a considerable amount.

</div></div>

I concur, using good plugs and muffs is clearly superior to either just plugs or just muffs in my experience. I agree that it's probably not summed addition for the system resulting in 60dB reduction but its easy to hear the reduction from just plugs by putting muffs on too. I always double up when shooting anything with a muzzle brake. It can't hurt and my ears tell me it helps.

 

[m151m]

Re: Hearing protection in a tactical environment

Electronic muffs with + plugs, I use MSA Sordins, pricey but they do work good

 

[808H200321]

Re: Hearing protection in a tactical environment

i've been using silynx over the last year or so and like it...my only complaints are that it took a little getting used to the plugs around the 3-4 plus hours range and b/c the system is fairly new to the market, the software has been getting updates a lot...i got it around the 20 version and i think it's now around 50....

 

[808H200321]

Re: Hearing protection in a tactical environment

oh forgot to mention that it has multi comm option, noise cancelling, and noise magnification...plus many options to complement most any LEO or military tactical op, including for helos, jumping, diving, remote features, etc...

 

[Triad]

Re: Hearing protection in a tactical environment

MSA supreme Pro X and foam plugs when involved in any shooting done in a preplanned range event.

Just the Pro X when there is time to put them on and the possibility of getting loud exists.

Nothing but a smile when shit goes south......

I ran SWAT ops for almost 9 years with MSA muffs. We had earbud comms that fit under the muffs, and the muffs fit under the ACH. I wore the muffs any time I could find a reason: FX/Sims training, 40mm gas and less lethal, flash bang stuff and any time I had a gun in my hand.

My OIS last year was the equivalent of a 36 round gunfight in a 10x10 room. It has left me with tinnitus in both ears, hearing loss and hyperacusis. This was a patrol response to a robbery and there was no time for hearing pro. I will pay that price for the rest of my days. I have seen the specialists and spoken to ear surgeons about my options. Of course I asked all of them about doubling up, hell yes they say. As noted above, it does not double the protection, but it does help.

 

[808H200321]

Re: Hearing protection in a tactical environment

i realize "most" everyone is addressing this posting in regard to hearing protection, however, the post references "in a tactical environment." with that being said, and from a "practical" and "tactical" standpoint if you shut off most all of your ability to hear, you lose a crucial sense important to an operator, ambient sound and the ability to effectively communicate...like most anything else in a tactical environment, an operator must weigh things out and find balance or a trade off with "risks versus benefits"...heck its not a secret if you shoot a lot or occasionally blow shit up and work around helos that you probably will lose some hearing over the years...so on the range plug em' up, but in the "fight" a lot of what is being said is simply not practical or tactical...

 

[m1a convert]

Re: Hearing protection in a tactical environment

Suppressors

 

[ArcticLight]

Re: Hearing protection in a tactical environment

So what do our guys kicking in doors and shooting in alley's use?

I've always been curious.

 

[M25BeastShooter]

Re: Hearing protection in a tactical environment

I've recently started to wear the Sure Fire brand the silicon ones with the little vent and cap in the middle. I find I can wear them all day so if I'm on the range wearing my muffs I have double protection but I can take off the muffs and if someone lets a a round go without "everyone got your ears on?" I'm still protected.

They seem to work and of course I can wear them with my Kevlar