heavy/ bull barrel and recoil

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Flyingbullseye

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    • Jul 24, 2010
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    #1
    A little less than a year ago I had a small rotator cuff tear, not enough to require surgery but enough to hurt like hell. Things are fine now but when I took my M1 to the range last month after less than 40 rounds my shoulder started to feel it even with a recoil pad. I've never had a problem in the past, just don't want to re-injure my shoulder again.

    If you were to put a heavy or bull barrel on a .308 is there a noticeable difference in felt recoil?

    When I rebarrel my savage stevens since its a .243 and thus a .308 cartridge I can go in any direction. I'd like to minimize the negatives as much as possible. .243 are barrel burners, .260 small supply of brass and .308 might cause the shoulder problem to return.

    So, much difference or should I just deal with the small brass selection or burning of the barrels?
    grin.gif


    Flyingbullseye
     
    #2
    Re: heavy/ bull barrel and recoil

    <span style="color: #FF0000">"If you were to put a heavy or bull barrel on a .308 is there a noticeable difference in felt recoil?"</span>

    Additional weight of any kind will help tame felt recoil, a quality brake will do wonders

    <span style="color: #FF0000">".243 are barrel burners"</span>

    Don't believe everything you hear, I have seen quality barrels go to 4-6K rounds in 243, depends on how you shoot. If you shoot long strings and don't let the barrel cool (on any rifle) you will shave a lot of life off the barrel.

    Kirk R
     
    #4
    Re: heavy/ bull barrel and recoil

    First, a brake or suppressor will go a long way in reducing recoil far more than a bull barrel.

    Second, a 243 an easily see 2K rounds. A 243 with a brake is watching your impact at 100.

    There are plenty of brass options for the 260.

    If a 308 is too much recoil for your shoulder, perhaps a 223 with a brake may be the direction you need to look.
     
    #8
    Re: heavy/ bull barrel and recoil

    Thanks guys, I did ponder the barrel brake option even though they are supposed to be REAL loud. Can't use a suppressor, stuck in Michigan. Injuries just plain suck.

    Flyingbullseye
     
    #10
    Re: heavy/ bull barrel and recoil

    I have a heavy barrel GAP 243 with a badger brake. I also shoot it now with a SAS can. Either way it has NO recoil and it is extremely accurate. My 308 has the same setup and while it has very little recoil it is more than the 243 which is almost zero. I can see rounds hit at any distance with the 243
     
    #11
    Re: heavy/ bull barrel and recoil

    I just had a Surefire brake added to my .308 rifle, R700 with varmint contour cut to 20" from the lug. There is a very noticeable reduction in recoil with the brake, I was surprised at the difference as I thought it would be minimal. As far as the extra noise I am not sure if it is really that bad, behind the rifle I can't really tell if it is much louder.
     
    #13
    Re: heavy/ bull barrel and recoil

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Recoil</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Badger FTE ! </div></div>

    This.

    I have one on a wildcat, and am having my 338LM built with one as well. Extremely effective.
     
    #15
    Re: heavy/ bull barrel and recoil

    I just google'd around for the FTE and it says it's a clamp on, but says it needs to be installed by a competent gunsmith.
    Eh?
    Do you have to modify your barrel at all to use this?
     
    #16
    Re: heavy/ bull barrel and recoil

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: planalpha</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I just google'd around for the FTE and it says it's a clamp on, but says it needs to be installed by a competent gunsmith.
    Eh?
    Do you have to modify your barrel at all to use this? </div></div>

    It's not a clamp on. It's a threaded brake that has a pinch bolt to time it to the barrel after it has been threaded on. And yes there needs to be a special machine cut to the barrel for this brake not to mention the barrel needs to be threaded.
     
    #17
    Re: heavy/ bull barrel and recoil

    2 questions.

    How much did threading the barrel and brake cost you HateCA?

    Anyone know how much the stock savage 22" .243 barrel weighs? Kind of want to get a comparison idea when I calculate my new barrel on pac-nor's website.

    Flyingbullseye
     
    #18
    Re: heavy/ bull barrel and recoil

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Flyingbullseye</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thanks guys, I did ponder the barrel brake option even though they are supposed to be REAL loud. Can't use a suppressor, stuck in Michigan. Injuries just plain suck.

    Flyingbullseye </div></div>
    They are very loud, although sound and efficiency varies from brake to brake. A good brake will make any heavy-barreled .308 shoot very "soft" - with light pressure in the shoulder pocket you'll probably be able to watch bullet impact at 100 yards.

    Muzzle brake usage may also annoy shooters in the immediate vicinity because brakes redirect some of the blast, sound, and expanding gasses (changing pressure level close by). The shooter (and anyone else 6 O'Clock of the muzzle) won't be affected, but it is quite unpleasant to be located between 9 O'Clock and 7 O'Clock and 3 O'Clock and 5 O'Clock of a shooter using a muzzle brake. A side effect of this is that pads and benches around you will be occupied last.


    Keith
     
    #19
    Re: heavy/ bull barrel and recoil

    I've noticed that even from guys shooting .223/5.56 next to them. Not a bad way to get some elbow room at the range.lol. Too bad michigan blows and doesn't allow a suppressor, would make things much better on all levels. Who would you guys recommend for a brake?

    Flyingbullseye
     
    #20
    Re: heavy/ bull barrel and recoil

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wilshire1412</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I just had a Surefire brake added to my .308 rifle, R700 with varmint contour cut to 20" from the lug. There is a very noticeable reduction in recoil with the brake, I was surprised at the difference as I thought it would be minimal. As far as the extra noise I am not sure if it is really that bad, behind the rifle I can't really tell if it is much louder. </div></div>
    <span style="font-style: italic">"As far as the extra noise I am not sure if it is really that bad, behind the rifle I can't really tell if it is much louder."</span>

    You don't think the blast and noise is bad because <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">as the shooter you are behind the muzzle and out of the of the direct line of the blast and noise</span></span>. Let someone shoot your rifle while you sit or stand directly behind the shooter. Not bad at all - nothing.

    Then try it again while you sit or stand within a 10 foot radius of the muzzle at 4, 5, 7, 8, 3, or 9 O'Clock of the muzzle. After experiencing those locations, I think that you might change your mind about how loud the brake is.


    Keith
     
    #21
    Re: heavy/ bull barrel and recoil

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Aries64</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Let someone shoot your rifle while you sit or stand directly behind the shooter. Not bad at all - nothing</div></div>

    Totally dependent on brake design. I've had experienced spotters comment on how surprised they were at how loud and just how much muzzle blast my rifle produces at the 6 0' clock position.

    John
     
    #23
    Re: heavy/ bull barrel and recoil

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HateCA</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: planalpha</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I just google'd around for the FTE and it says it's a clamp on, but says it needs to be installed by a competent gunsmith.
    Eh?
    Do you have to modify your barrel at all to use this? </div></div>

    It's not a clamp on. It's a threaded brake that has a pinch bolt to time it to the barrel after it has been threaded on. And yes there needs to be a special machine cut to the barrel for this brake not to mention the barrel needs to be threaded.</div></div>
    Thanks, HateCA!
     
    #25
    Re: heavy/ bull barrel and recoil

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Flyingbullseye</div><div class="ubbcode-body">2 questions.

    How much did threading the barrel and brake cost you HateCA?
    </div></div>

    Nothing I did it myself
    grin.gif
     
    #26
    Re: heavy/ bull barrel and recoil

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It will also be greatly dependent upon the firing line as well. An open grassy field is a bit different than a covered concrete line with concrete benches to either side. </div></div>

    That's SO true! My good friend has a 200 yd. range on his property that he lets me use for basic load development. Concrete pad. Concrete bench. Shed roof. LOUD!

    John
     
    #27
    Re: heavy/ bull barrel and recoil

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Flyingbullseye</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A little less than a year ago I had a small rotator cuff tear, not enough to require surgery but enough to hurt like hell.</div></div>

    I've had more than a dozen shoulder dislocations which have resulted in a multitude of tears in the rotator cuff, tendons and ligaments around my shooting shoulder. I can say from personal experience that even a small rotator cuff tear can be somewhat bothersome for a couple of years. I'll assume that you did your physical therapy and most likely you're dealing with scar tissue that gets irritated when you shoot (If you didn't do your PT then go back and do it and the pain will subside). There are a number of off the shelf shoulder braces that can provide padding, but more importantly can reduce the amount of shoulder travel inside the joint. They are made from inexpensive neoprene and are relatively comfortable to wear and often keep the shoulder warm and flexible. It may be a simple solution worth considering before you rebarrel. Just my .02

    ~DW
     
    #28
    Re: heavy/ bull barrel and recoil

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: GeoDW</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've had more than a dozen shoulder dislocations which have resulted in a multitude of tears in the rotator cuff, tendons and ligaments around my shooting shoulder. I can say from personal experience that even a small rotator cuff tear can be somewhat bothersome for a couple of years. I'll assume that you did your physical therapy and most likely you're dealing with scar tissue that gets irritated when you shoot (If you didn't do your PT then go back and do it and the pain will subside). There are a number of off the shelf shoulder braces that can provide padding, but more importantly can reduce the amount of shoulder travel inside the joint. They are made from inexpensive neoprene and are relatively comfortable to wear and often keep the shoulder warm and flexible. It may be a simple solution worth considering before you rebarrel. Just my .02

    ~DW </div></div>

    A dozen dislocations! Wow, I thought I had it bad with one put me in shock dislocation 10 years back and that small rotator cuff tear. Did the PT, thanks to that and a good dose of steroids I feel good again. Even put 40 rounds through my new .243 today and nothing. Huge difference to a 30-06 with a recoil pad. Limb saver my ass.lol

    Flyingbullseye
     
    #29
    Re: heavy/ bull barrel and recoil

    My shoulder also isn't good these days. I am having Pierce engineering install a heavy bull barrel (7+ lbs) in 6XC with badger brake for me. Shouldn't be much recoil when it is done.

    Most of my friends don't like the noise of my brakes; i have them from several manufacturers but they tolerate it when shooting next to me on the bench. On the other hand they also love shooting my rifles due to the reduced recoil of the brakes.

    Don't know where you are in Michigan but Pierce is in Lansing. They do some real nice work from what i've personally seen.
     
    #31
    Re: heavy/ bull barrel and recoil

    I am a little careful with recoil also after having three complete shoulder rebuilds on my right shoulder. I would look hard at the 6 mm BR or 6.5 x 47 L, I shoot both in F-class comps. I have shot decent scores with the 6 mm BR out to 1,000 yards but prefer the 6.5L for 600 yards and beyond. Both of these rounds are assuming you reload.

    The 6mm BR kind of just nudges the shoulder and is amazingly accurate and easy to load for. When I did a ladder test with the 6 BR my powder range was about 2 grains difference from high to low and I shot the ladder three times and had 3 shots out of the 21 that were outside of a 1 MOA group at 300 yards.

    A mild rotator cuff tear should not keep you from shooting.

    Just my 2 cents,

    wade
     
    #32
    Re: heavy/ bull barrel and recoil

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: awp762</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Don't know where you are in Michigan but Pierce is in Lansing. </div></div>

    Just south of you in Livonia. Went to Island Lake range yesterday to zero my scope and only had the 100yd option, too long of a wait for the 50yd.

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A mild rotator cuff tear should not keep you from shooting. </div></div>

    It won't, just kind of skittish the injury could return which was why I wanted to know if a heavy barrel just slightly reduced recoil or a good amount. How easy is it to rebarrel a savage SA into a 6.5x47L?

    Flyingbullseye

     
    #35
    Re: heavy/ bull barrel and recoil

    +1 for john pierce in lansing. he did a rebarrel job for me about a year ago. does great work, good price and local. he will spend all the time in the world with you, give you a ton of options.

    Go Green
     
    #36
    Re: heavy/ bull barrel and recoil

    Have you considered switching to shooting with the opposite shoulder? Takes a little getting used to but it is an option. I shot right handed for thirty years thats just what my uncle and cousins started me out doing I can shoot very well right handed. when I got in to handguns and realized my dominant eye is my left I switched. It took some getting used to but now I can shoot either way. I do have a little edge with my dominant eye but very little. just a thought I wanted to share that you might consider.
     
    #37
    Re: heavy/ bull barrel and recoil

    You might try using a cold laser to help the shoulder heal. Their use reduces scar tissue and usually produces a better repair. The one I like best is the TerraQuant.

    The battery operated model works well, but sells for $2,000 in the USA. However you can buy it in England for $550. They will not ship direct, so someone has to buy it there and mail it to the USA. The plug in model is even more money.

    -Steve
     
    #38
    Re: heavy/ bull barrel and recoil

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It will also be greatly dependent upon the firing line as well. An open grassy field is a bit different than a covered concrete line with concrete benches to either side. </div></div>
    Too true - I forgot to mention that. There is a <span style="font-style: italic">HUGE</span> sound / annoyance differential between shooting in the open versus shooting from under a covered location where corrogated metal roofs are popular.


    Keith
     
    #39
    Re: heavy/ bull barrel and recoil

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Flyingbullseye</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: awp762</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Don't know where you are in Michigan but Pierce is in Lansing. </div></div>

    Just south of you in Livonia. Went to Island Lake range yesterday to zero my scope and only had the 100yd option, too long of a wait for the 50yd.

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A mild rotator cuff tear should not keep you from shooting. </div></div>

    It won't, just kind of skittish the injury could return which was why I wanted to know if a heavy barrel just slightly reduced recoil or a good amount. How easy is it to rebarrel a savage SA into a 6.5x47L?

    Flyingbullseye

    </div></div>

    PM sent
     
    #40
    Re: heavy/ bull barrel and recoil

    Looking at it another way, I have issues with recoil too, due to a surgical reconstruction of my sternum. Yet I can still shoot a Win M70 featherweight .30-'06.

    Putting more mass into the barrel can help, but I may have an easier way. Adding mass is definitely the right approach, but it doesn't need to be added to the rifle itself.

    First, do some research on the Caldwell Lead Sled. This can be easily justified in light of your physical issues, and doesn't have any sound amplification problems associated with it.

    I do something even simpler. I place a sack of lead shot, or a substantial sandbag, over my shoulder, and allow it to fit in between the shoulder and rifle's recoil pad. When the rifle recoils it now moves not just my shoulder but also the mass of the sack, and it all works together to reduce felt recoil. As long as I hold the rifle close and tight, it works.

    Worth a try before you start messing around with the rifle itself.

    I shoot the .260, and it is very good for folks like ourselves. I handload, and can use any make of .243, .260, or 7-08 brass simply by running it through the F/L die with a neck resizer ball. It all comes out as .260, and BTW, the Rem brass works fine. I just do a bit of prep on whatever I use and it's all good. A 140gr-ish Match bullet is good to 1Kyd, and 120gr Nosler Ballistic Tips are great for varmints and very accurate within 700yd. 95gr V-Max are the bomb for varmints out to 400-500yd; Ka-Whammo!

    Greg
     
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