Night Vision Helmet mounted: straight thermal, mix NV/thermal, or clip on?

[91Eunozs]

A little background: I used to fly with NV a lot when in the AF, so very comfortable with using it for navigation, etc. However, thermal’s come a long way over the past few years, and the little bit of experience I have with some mid-level thermal systems makes me want to rethink my helmet-mounted setup.

I’d love to try some of the newer fusion systems, but retired military means no more access to the good stuff. Those systems are also a bit outside my price range anyway…would like to keep the new helmet setup < $20K all in. Already have helmets and comms covered; just looking for the optics, any required bridge/arms, battery holders, weapon-mounted laser, etc.

Would appreciate input and pros/cons from folks who have tried various setups…. Paging @TheHorta if you have time to chime in

I’m a newbie for thermal, and my NV experience/knowledge is stale, so please be patient with my questions. Leaning towards (in order of my current preference):

1) Skeet IR on non-dominant eye (in edge/detect mode ?) + NV monocular on dominant eye. Should I switch these?
2) Straight NV setup on helmet; REAP IR or maybe Eotech clip on for the rifle
3) Bite the bullet and go straight thermal for $30K+
4) Something else I’m not considering

Thanks in advance for any input…


—break, break —

Secondary question would be “what rifle-mounted thermal would you recommend if I already have scanning/navigation thermal covered via my helmet setup.”

 

[TheHorta]

This is what you seek.

It’s a smidge higher than $20K. About $35K tied up in that lid with dual Skeets.

The Jerry-F fusion monocular (what’s on the other lid) is actually very good, now that I have it dialed in and know how to get the best out of it. I have a >2800 FOM L3 WP tube installed (thanks to Jay at SSNV). That’s a VERY solid option and the outlay for that setup was under $15K. Only downside is the mount feels cheap and it’s a likely failure point if you’re rough on gear. I’m a dainty little girl, so my stuff gets babied.

I just took those photos all for you, brother. Between those two buckets and the gun and other accessories, it’s pushing $100K.

I need an intervention.

 

[91Eunozs]

Thanks!

Yeah, I keep trying to retire for the second time, but between shooting and track time, I can’t afford to do that yet!

I have to keep myself in the lifestyle to which I’ve become accustomed. LoL

 

[91Eunozs]

Re: lasers, all my experience is with the systems I had on my M4 and GUU-5P … so again, stale/old knowledge.

What new civilian version would y’all recommend: L3 or Wilcox?

Something else? Maybe a rifle-mounted thermal with a built-in laser?

Separate budget for this piece, so I’d like to hear about options…

 

[TheHorta]

MAWL or Civ Raid-Xe. Raid is lighter, MAWL has a better interface.

Only thermals with built-in IR lasers are Trij/BAE units (Skeet/UTM) or Pixels on Target Voodoo (S/M).

EDIT: MAWL has better interface. Brain said MAWL, fingers typed Raid. Lol. Onset dementia.

 

[ToKeepAndBear]

I am a newbie to NV/thermal with only a years worth of experience. I am still figuring things out myself. With that said, I have been very happy with my 1531s (sometimes can be found for 10k with battery pack), a COTI thermal I got on closeout, and a Reap-IR 35 weapon mounted thermal.

The dual L3 WP tubes provide a very natural viewing experience. The COTI does great on picking up coyotes out to 200+ yards and deer sized game out to 400 scanning with the helmet. It is especially great on the move between stands. I like using a helmet mounted Kiji for IR illumination when needed.

For weapon mounted IR lasers, I have a MAWL and a CQBL/Kiji combo. For self defense purposes, the MAWL has a great interface that is superior. For hunting, I probably like the CQBL/Kiji combo better and it is about 40% the cost of a MAWL. It is a bit more versatile than the MAWL, especially if you pick up a clip-on down the road.

Good problem to have, enjoy!

 

[91Eunozs]

It’d be great to be able to get the Skeet without the laser pointer for a dedicated helmet mounted system…to knock off a couple ounces, and lower the price a bit too. I understand why it‘s there for a multi-purpose tool, but not needed for the helm. Maybe replace with illuminators?

Anyone from Trijicon on this board who can address if that might be an option down the road?

 

[TheHorta]

I don’t see illuminators ever being put on thermals. They don’t directly benefit from them (since they obviously can’t see them), and a few .MIL units have lasers just for designation purposes for lasing targets and pointing out stuff to dudes with NODs.

We’ll see how the new Armasight unit does. I’ve learned not to get my hopes up too high. Right now, the MH25/RH25 are the closest consumer units, and the RH25 actually makes a better clipon than the Skeet, but what makes it a better clipon also makes it worse on a helmet.

Honestly, the MTM-Pi is a solid second to the Skeet as a monocular or for helmet use. It is true “unity” and has the widest FOV of any thermal I’ve used. Even appreciably wider than the Skeet. It’s a fantastic spotter.

 

[smcfarland]

What’s the primary use and general terrain you’ll be in?
I say that because it can make a big difference in what will work best.
My primary use is hunting pigs/coyotes in fairly open terrain in West Texas. Most of the time we are driving in a truck with a windshield. Stop, roll down window to scan field with thermal, then drive to next if nothing there. If something there, dismount and walk up and shoot pigs at fairly close range.
Thermal helmet mounted wouldn’t work for me due to the windshield. Open fields mean I can typically spot the animals without thermal if illumination is greater than 20% or so.
I run high spec Katanas and they are perfect for what I do. I’ve got an old pulsar 384 scanner that works good enough, but probably the only thing I could improve on.
I have buddies that hunt with me and have some really nice shit, have had INOD, utc-x, skeets, Steiner C35, even some other military scanners used on my place. It seems we’re always having issues with dead batteries, time to power up, or lost zero that makes them less effective than me running dual tubes with a DBAL-D2.
For longer distance stuff, the old SIMRAD works pretty darn well in the open terrain I’m in.
Hope this helps. Might not need to spend all of that budget if the terrain/use doesn’t dictate it.

 

[WhereNow&How]

I don’t see illuminators ever being put on thermals.

Hmmm, I guess an "Illuminator" in the context of thermal would really mean a bigger chunk of objective Germanium.

Hmmm, maybe put some rotating arms on the Skeet with 50 mm lens. Then you got standard for close range and rotate in the 50 mm for long range.

Change the name of the Skeet to "BigMeat"

 

[91Eunozs]

What’s the primary use and general terrain you’ll be in?
I say that because it can make a big difference in what will work best.
My primary use is hunting pigs/coyotes in fairly open terrain in West Texas. Most of the time we are driving in a truck with a windshield. Stop, roll down window to scan field with thermal, then drive to next if nothing there. If something there, dismount and walk up and shoot pigs at fairly close range.
Thermal helmet mounted wouldn’t work for me due to the windshield. Open fields mean I can typically spot the animals without thermal if illumination is greater than 20% or so.
I run high spec Katanas and they are perfect for what I do. I’ve got an old pulsar 384 scanner that works good enough, but probably the only thing I could improve on.
I have buddies that hunt with me and have some really nice shit, have had INOD, utc-x, skeets, Steiner C35, even some other military scanners used on my place. It seems we’re always having issues with dead batteries, time to power up, or lost zero that makes them less effective than me running dual tubes with a DBAL-D2.
For longer distance stuff, the old SIMRAD works pretty darn well in the open terrain I’m in.
Hope this helps. Might not need to spend all of that budget if the terrain/use doesn’t dictate it.

Pretty similar, except 90% of the time in cedar/brush along game trails and truck paths on a few thousand acres down between here (just north of New Braunfels) and Corpus…some family friends own significant property with a few oil wells and cattle.

I spend a lot of time down there trying to keep the feral hogs somewhat under control, but popping a couple per night per person isn’t keeping up.

Need to get more mobile.

 

[stefan73]

@jstokes1 has a pretty good right up in one of his posts about helmet mounted systems and dual band.

 

[smcfarland]

Pretty similar, except 90% of the time in cedar/brush along game trails and truck paths on a few thousand acres down between here (just north of New Braunfels) and Corpus…some family friends own significant property with a few oil wells and cattle.

I spend a lot of time down there trying to keep the feral hogs somewhat under control, but popping a couple per night per person isn’t keeping up.

Need to get more mobile.

Cedar makes it tough. I live in the hill country. Thermal will work much better in that environment, but will still have issues.
Considered an Autel thermal drone? Might be best option for that terrain and that size area.
Find and fix with thermal drone, move in from downwind with NVGs and F them up.

 

[stefan73]

Pretty similar, except 90% of the time in cedar/brush along game trails and truck paths on a few thousand acres down between here (just north of New Braunfels) and Corpus…some family friends own significant property with a few oil wells and cattle.

I spend a lot of time down there trying to keep the feral hogs somewhat under control, but popping a couple per night per person isn’t keeping up.

Need to get more mobile.

You just need to invite the Hide out!

 

[wigwamitus]

Head mounted setup ?

It depends on what you are doing - in detail !

The only setup I do not use is the dual thermal monoculars, because I want to be able to see the laser. I do use

1 x 14 + COTI on Night Cap ...

==
Oasys Cored Thermal monocular on one eye, with 14 + COTI on the other

==

2 x 14s with a COTI ... (from left to right, 14 + chinese ecoti, dual 14s plus vetronics coti, 14 + coti with nox-18)

==
==
The 14 + coti gives fast aiming with laser with a thermal overlay. Very fast aiming and lightest dualband setup.

The dual 14s with coti give depth perception, useful when driving vehicles (like 4 wheeler) with no glass in front to the thermal can see. And thermal overlay detection out to 500yds in most conditions.

Single 14 + COTI and N18 gives laser aiming thermal overlay capability AND adds long distance oasys core spotting.

==
So depends on what I'm doing, I use all 3 ! My current favorite is the first, the single 14 with coti as its light and single eye and on most nights that means the other eye now adds considerably to the FOV and this is very useful when moving in the woods !!

==

As to thermal on rifle, I use thermal and NV clipons, but for mostly hog hunting, I would use a thermal scope. Lighter weight, better balance (weight to the rear on the receiver). The Nox-35 would be at the top of my list, manual focus, indexed zeroing, mil hash holding reticles, out of the box ability to use rechargables (18650) ... under $7k price. And the 4x digital image is amazing, clearest 4x I've seen, so that gives you usable 10x net magnification on top of the 2.5x optical, waaaay more than you need for hogs !!

 

[WhereNow&How]

Wigs advice is spot on as usual.

 

[Gwood88]

Man! What kind of COTI are you guys running?!
With mine I can find animals, but I have to use my weapon mounted thermal or my MAWL to figure out what they are. I also run it on desert mode which seems to help detection. Past 50yds or so all animals just appear as blobs of a heat signature.

I currently run a vectronix/optics1 coti on the left eye of my DTNVS. I am planning on picking up a proper dedicated HMT soon to pair with a PVS14 though.

 

[WhereNow&How]

Man! What kind of COTI are you guys running?!

Same as you.

But it is really just an early warning system constantly working through your NODS as you walk around, kinda like the British Radar that let the Pommies know when the Luftwaffe was coming so they could scramble them Spitfires & Hurricanes into the right vectors.

Hecque they won the Battle of Britain with that first gen radar system, albeit by the skin of their teeth. But in all fairness to them, the Luftwaffe plane count was significantly higher than Britain's available fighter planes.

So maybe one could win the battle of Joe Shit Bad Man Ridge with the Pas 29 Coti if that ever happens.

 

[WhereNow&How]

So kiss and love your COTI.

 

[Gwood88]

Hahaha. Good to know mine isn’t broken I guess. But I really like better PID of a dedicated thermal, either HMT or weapon mounted. A lone calf standing still can look a lot like a hog, especially a black angus, even under nods. Good PID is important to me and I just wish the COTI provided that.

 

[Hootiewho]

Some ECOTI clips.

 

[Hootiewho]