Help a newbie out

[SV_Dude]

I’m having grouping issues with my rifle and I’m not completely sure if it’s me or maybe my rifle.

Here’s the setup:
Daniel defense DD4v7 pro
Eotech 1-10 ffp
Eotech cantilever mount
Magpul bipod
Ammo shot in this case was new republic 556
(Have had same results with a few other brands of ammo)

My grouping is terrible. At 100 yards groups are spread at about 4”, most within 3”.

I do feel like I’m half decent with basic marksmanship and can do better. I’m wondering if maybe the cantilever scope mount is just bad for consistency? Everything was torqued down evenly with a calibrated torque wrench.

Just for proof that I can shoot better (maybe not super great), here’s a target that I shot at 100 yards with the following:

Daniel defense DD5v4
Geissele 2 stage trigger
Leupold mk5 5-25 scope
Leupold scope mount
Atlas bipod

What would you guys suggest to check for me to improve the grouping?

 

[6.5SH]

Try better quality ammo like FGMM or ADI. The group is about what you'd expect for an unknown SS109 clone.

ETA:
Even PSA's AAC 77gr would be a step up:

https://palmettostatearmory.com/aac-5-56-nato-77-grain-otm-20rd-box-ammunition.html

 

[mark5pt56]

Same ammunition? Two things stand out, while you didn't say what trigger in the V7, guessing "milspec"? that and the scope power.
1-While one can shoot accurately with the standard triggers, it can add to the difficulty to keep a steady gun as it's pulled.
2-Same on the optic, it shouldn't be an issue on 10x, if on max power on the other, just allows more precise aiming.

Not to criticize gear-but that Magpul bipod is garbage. Magpul makes some decent items, bipods are not one of them. I guess that would be strike 3.
To add-while both guns can be reasonably accurate, my opinion is you are spinning your wheels trying to print pretty groups with either--work on positional drills utilizing support and no support, at 100 goal is to keep them on a B8 repair center black. On some of those positions you should be able to hold a 10 ring. I would also say that the V4 is over scoped, move the Vortex to that, red dot the V7 and use the scope for a MK12, etc.

In addition--check list the fundementals, assuming you are the bench? Even "resting" do you have a good position, body alignment, NPA, clear focus, parallax set, respiratory pause, smooth steady trigger break, follow through. Equipment check list, little things matter as in 20 round mag? You may be to high if using a 30 rounder, how are you resting the buttstock?

 

[SV_Dude]

The v7 has a giessele single stage super dynamic 3 gun trigger. It’s super light so I don’t expect trigger errors to be much of a factor.

I know the Magpul bipod isn’t great but it’s just to add stability to accurately zero the scope. Once I’m happy with the zero it’s coming off.

As for the scope, I grabbed that for it because eotech gives a great mil/vet discount. I can put an eotech holographic on it but I use that on my ar9.

While zeroing I did have the scope set to 10x.

I’ll try some better quality ammo and try again. Previous ammo I’ve used with similar results are Winchester 223 (brown box), and Winchester 556 white box.

For reference on the better grouping with the 6.5vm, I was using Winchester white box.

 

[mark5pt56]

ah-missed the "5"! Either way, you can't expect so much from that either and then the scope is ok on the "5" My opinion only, the 1-10 is a heavy scope on that V7 but it's your gun.

Looking at your target, I would say any outliers are breathing, inconsistent aiming point, body alignment/NPA and inconsistent position.

 

[mark5pt56]

With the ammunition, keep it in perspective, while one can get lucky and have ball ammo shoot accurately, not normal. With good ball ammo, that V7 should hold 2-2.5"or less.

 

[SV_Dude]

ah-missed the "5"! Either way, you can't expect so much from that either and then the scope is ok on the "5" My opinion only, the 1-10 is a heavy scope on that V7 but it's your gun.

Looking at your target, I would say any outliers are breathing, inconsistent aiming point, body alignment/NPA and inconsistent position.

So the general idea is that I need to work on better shooting skills and use better ammo if I wanna tighten the groups up?

I’d be happy to see 2moa on the ar15 and 1 moa (maybe 1.5) on the ar10.

As for the ar15 scope (1-10), when you say heavy do you mean the actual weight or the zoom level of it? Maybe a silly question but I gotta clarify since I don’t feel the additional weight is a concern.

 

[mark5pt56]

Yes, work on the fundementals. A couple things to remember--you have a light 16" barreled chrome lined carbine, not an "SPR" "DMR", etc. Don't beat your self up, expecting it to consistently punch little "groups" Sure, will you get one here and there-of course as someone will post a pic of one of those. My approach would be what I posted above ref a training program. I think some folks over scope rifles, especially hunting guns. I referenced weight as in making the gun heavy, again-your gun.
Same on the 6.5--it's a 18" carbine

• 18" Cold Hammer Forged proprietary steel chrome-lined barrel for a lifetime of accuracy and durability

I have the .308, sure I've punched under 1" with FGMM, 1-1.25 more likely and probably averaging 1.25-1.5" consistently, just did .830 and .915, 5 shots each with some handloads using 168 smk

I could bet that 7 shots from the V7 are from you, work on the basics.

 

[SV_Dude]

I definitely appreciate the feedback! Thank you!

 

[SV_Dude]

Welp… I finally got back around to getting this rifle on the range again. I tried 4 different ammo types:
* New Republic SS109
* Hornady Black 75 gr
* Hornady Frontier 75 gr
* Hornady Frontier 68 gr

Here’s the target showing the results:

Looks like I can get really close to 1 moa using the frontier 75gr.

However, I did change the scope out for a Leupold mk5 3.6-18. I didn’t turn the magnification above 10 just to eliminate the aiming precision with a more high power scope.

I need to throw the eotech back on this rifle and see if I can get these same groupings with that scope using the ammo I tested today. If not then I’d lean towards the eotech having some issue.

 

[SV_Dude]

Also, the groupings aren’t super close to center of the target because my scope turrets likely need to be adjusted. I was using the 3 mil mark above the center of the reticle to make these shots. I can only dial down 0.5 mils before the turret stops. However, I can dial up 17 mils before the turret stops. This scope should have 29 mils of adjustment so I’m assuming that Leupold didn’t have the scope set to the bottom (-0.5 mils) before installing the cap?

Edit: turns out that all I had to do is just remove the turret cap, rotate it a few mils and reinstall it. I added 4 mils to the up elevation. I’ll re-zero and confirm then put the eotech on and hopefully have good results.

 

[Newbie2020]

Welp… I finally got back around to getting this rifle on the range again. I tried 4 different ammo types:
* New Republic SS109
* Hornady Black 75 gr
* Hornady Frontier 75 gr
* Hornady Frontier 68 gr

Here’s the target showing the results:
View attachment 8589818

Looks like I can get really close to 1 moa using the frontier 75gr.

However, I did change the scope out for a Leupold mk5 3.6-18. I didn’t turn the magnification above 10 just to eliminate the aiming precision with a more high power scope.

I need to throw the eotech back on this rifle and see if I can get these same groupings with that scope using the ammo I tested today. If not then I’d lean towards the eotech having some issue.

These groups are not horrible like the 3”-4” groups in the original post. Did you confirm the Eotech was the problem?

 

[SV_Dude]

These groups are not horrible like the 3”-4” groups in the original post. Did you confirm the Eotech was the problem?

Sorry for a late reply, I haven’t had a chance to get the rifle back out yet. Hopefully this coming weekend, weather permitting.

 

[N_Turs]

The v7 has a giessele single stage super dynamic 3 gun trigger. It’s super light so I don’t expect trigger errors to be much of a factor.

I know the Magpul bipod isn’t great but it’s just to add stability to accurately zero the scope. Once I’m happy with the zero it’s coming off.

As for the scope, I grabbed that for it because eotech gives a great mil/vet discount. I can put an eotech holographic on it but I use that on my ar9.

While zeroing I did have the scope set to 10x.

I’ll try some better quality ammo and try again. Previous ammo I’ve used with similar results are Winchester 223 (brown box), and Winchester 556 white box.

For reference on the better grouping with the 6.5vm, I was using Winchester white box.

While I really like that trigger your running its definitely not helping you shoot tight groups. That trigger has no wall at all and is hard for me to shoot well when going for groups.

 

[Ronws]

Most every time I had a flier, I look back and realize that I did not reset my body to the same position of the first one or two shots. Shooting a 7 PRC has some recoil to it.

Anyway, so, I learned that the highest to lowest contributing factor to misses is:

1) the shooter
2) the ammo
3) the gear (rifle, optics, handles, all of which might also be operator error if not installed correctly. Or just a plain old loose and wobbly rifle.)

You did have that one acceptable group.

So, setting aside shooter error, it is known one rifle can react differently to different ammo, even within the same brand. I think that has to do with both barrel and the shooter's reaction to recoil (not meaning pain, just how the body reacts.)

In my .308 rifles, I have not had good experience with Hornady SST 150 gr. Nor 150 grain in Federal Nontypical Whitetail. 165 grains or heavier works. I have one with a medium bull barrel that likes 180 gr from Federal.

The guy at Little Crow Gunworks made a graph where the most important things are cartridge and bullet type and least important is seating depth. To where tight adherance to a powder charge weight did not make as much difference as one might think.

As for shooter skills. I have never stopped learning. Each time I pull, and a lot of that is dry fire, I learn something else. Some days, I have to concentrate on body alignment. And to reset that position the same way every time. That's the hard one. It takes me time but I get better groups.

Also, from what I have learned from others and my own experience, grouping is best done away from the aiming point. If I am using a refined point of aim, I do not want to erase it with a bunch of holes.

Once I have groups done and a practical zero, I can adjust the optic to be zeroed. My main activity is hunting. I am only going to get 1 or 2 shots. No one I have known has had to or been able to take a 3rd shot in succession.

 

[SV_Dude]

These groups are not horrible like the 3”-4” groups in the original post. Did you confirm the Eotech was the problem?

I finally went out last weekend and shot again with the eotech scope. I shot both suppressed and unsuppressed. My 10 shot groups were all within about 2”. One thing I did notice is that my first 4-5 shots were all really good grouping at about half to 3/4 inch. Then the last 5 shots or so would spread out. I think that’s due to me getting impatient and over confident. So I have stuff to work on.

 

[Darryle]

I finally went out last weekend and shot again with the eotech scope. I shot both suppressed and unsuppressed. My 10 shot groups were all within about 2”. One thing I did notice is that my first 4-5 shots were all really good grouping at about half to 3/4 inch. Then the last 5 shots or so would spread out. I think that’s due to me getting impatient and over confident. So I have stuff to work on.

How much time from first to last round fired, a thin profile barrel could open up groups on repeated strings. I have had a couple that were 3 and done, some 5 and done, anything more looked terrible at the range.

 

[SV_Dude]

How much time from first to last round fired, a thin profile barrel could open up groups on repeated strings. I have had a couple that were 3 and done, some 5 and done, anything more looked terrible at the range.

So I thought about that too after my first string of 10 rounds. But I didn’t wait long before I loaded my next mag of 10. Then my first several shots were good then my groups got worse.

Here’s the barrel profile:

18" 5.56mm, Rifle Length, 1:7, S2W®

Our 18” 5.56 barrel is the most accurate and longest lasting barrel attainable for your AR-15 build. We Cold Hammer Forge our barrels, a process that sets us apart from other barrel manufacturers. The 18” Strength to Weight (Daniel’s Heavy Barrel) profile barrel is forged from 4150 Chrome Moly...

danieldefense.com

It’s hardly a PRS barrel but there is still some mass to it for an 18” 556 barrel.

 

[N_Turs]

So I thought about that too after my first string of 10 rounds. But I didn’t wait long before I loaded my next mag of 10. Then my first several shots were good then my groups got worse.

Here’s the barrel profile:

18" 5.56mm, Rifle Length, 1:7, S2W®

Our 18” 5.56 barrel is the most accurate and longest lasting barrel attainable for your AR-15 build. We Cold Hammer Forge our barrels, a process that sets us apart from other barrel manufacturers. The 18” Strength to Weight (Daniel’s Heavy Barrel) profile barrel is forged from 4150 Chrome Moly...

danieldefense.com

It’s hardly a PRS barrel but there is still some mass to it for an 18” 556 barrel.

Telling you dude that trigger is a huge factor swap it out with a solid light weight single our double stage. Be willing to bet those groups tighten up a lot.

 

[SV_Dude]

Telling you dude that trigger is a huge factor swap it out with a solid light weight single our double stage. Be willing to bet those groups tighten up a lot.

I have a giessele two stage match trigger and a trigger tech single stage diamond. I’ll try some groups with both and see what happens.

 

[N_Turs]

I have a giessele two stage match trigger and a trigger tech single stage diamond. I’ll try some groups with both and see what happens.

Either of those will help, I have an upper that I’ve ran on different lowers with different triggers same upper same optic. Much better results for me with a single stage geissele. I run the the 3 gun trigger in my match gun it’s a super fast trigger but not the best for printing groups. Hope you have the same results as me if so the groups your getting now will tighten up nicely.

 

[Darryle]

I wouldn't think that profile is a problem, @N_Turs is giving you solid advice.

I have seen the same issue going from different triggers and different lowers running the same upper/optics to where now I buy the same drop in, especially if they are on sale, I'll buy multiples.

 

[fedupflyer]

Has the OP taken a marksmanship clinic??

 

[SV_Dude]

Has the OP taken a marksmanship clinic??

I have not taken any formal classes. I’ve had more military marksmanship classes that I care to count but they’re hardly precision shooting classes and if you can hit a human size target at 300 yards then you’re considered an “expert”. Haha. So no, I haven’t had any real training.

I have watched a handful of the videos here and some that seemed to be reputable schools on YouTube. Take that for what it’s worth. No doubt though a legit class would definitely be good.

 

[Ronws]

I have not taken any formal classes. I’ve had more military marksmanship classes that I care to count but they’re hardly precision shooting classes and if you can hit a human size target at 300 yards then you’re considered an “expert”. Haha. So no, I haven’t had any real training.

I have watched a handful of the videos here and some that seemed to be reputable schools on YouTube. Take that for what it’s worth. No doubt though a legit class would definitely be good.

^
That is what I have learned from others who served specifically as snipers. Such as Ryan Cleckner when he was a sniper team leader in the Rangers 1/75.

The job requirement was to hit an IPSC sized target at unknown distances. So, a hit anywhere in that zone is a confirmed hit. He shot a 300 WM. He was shooting at 500 yards and less. Dial elevation for distance and then hold left or right edge of target into the wind. This is what he called tactical shooting. He has admitted he would not win a precision contest.

The longest distance confirmed sniper kill was a canadian sniper and he actually had to walk it in. Not a first round hit. He would see splashes and hold over more.

But the job requirement was to hit an IPSC, not pierce an earlobe.