Night Vision Help Configuring Thermal/NV combination setup

[cgbills]

Ok so I currently have an L3 filmless WP PVS 14. I am wanting to get into the thermal game for predator hunting here in Indiana and a once/twice a year trip to TX for Hog Hunting on a friends ranch. Here in Indy, I am limited to 300yrds max (if that), and most things being inside 100 yards. In TX the ranch has a lot of gullies and thick brush. They have feeder setups with most open shots being 100-200. They do however have one shot that is 300 and another at 600, though these are the exceptions. I have a bolt gun and AR10 in 6.5CM, but will likely run any dedicated thermal Scope on an AR15 in 6.8 SPC, 6.5 Grendel, or a wildcat of these two cases. I was thinking I would run a dedicated thermal scope and use the PVS14 for navigation. However, I have been thinking over a few other options.

Another option would be to use get a helmet mounted thermal and run it in some kind of dual flip up mount with the PVS14. I would flip back and forth and to spot and navigate. When it came time to shoot I would do it with something like a DBAL D2 and the PVS 14. This seems to be a viable option for 100 yards and in, but those long shots would be a lot harder. I could maybe push it out to 200. Also this setup takes advantage of the great L3 tube I already have. This setup would likely be cheaper than getting into a 640x480 thermal scope. I know there are lower res units, but I think I would want something in 640x480.

The other option I was thinking was to forgo the Thermal scope, get a cheaper low res thermal scanner, and get a PVS30 refurb to take my shots. This would allow for me to take advantage of longer shots (though those longer shots are few and far between). However, it would be nice to have the capability. This may stretch the budget too far however. Also it seems that if my primary purpose is hunting, then a thermal scope is the way to go. I appreciate any insight.

 

[Hollywood 6mm]

You should be able to be effective out to ~200 with a DBAL or ATPIAL (or similar) and your -14.

 

[Hogrider2000]

navigate and drive with the 14. Use lasers with the DBAL
Hunt with the 30 in front of a good scope.

Your 14 unless it is a RC is ONLY rated for 5.56. And was never designed to be weapon mounted.

 

[WhereNow&How]

@cgbills for your stated purposes, here is some data points I can offer up for your consideration.

Lasers do pretty good on hog sized critters in open clean areas that you can easily see in out to about 150 yards or so.

However, most of the time, critters are not in open clean ground or may be in clean ground for first shot and then quickly get into cover for follow up shooting. Trying to sight on critters in any type of grass and cover can result in several laser dot "points" out there that are reflecting off said brush and make it difficult for the average user to know which one is which especially in a dynamic fast happening event.

For killing critters a thermal weapon sight will most of the times be far superior to using a MFAL/LAM except on open clean ground out to about 50 - 70 yards. After that Thermal rules the day.

All that being said, for your intended purposes and frequency of use, here is what I know would work extremely well for you at a very attractive price point.

Get a Flir Breach and mount it on a Mod Armory Bridge next to your 14. That Breach will detect a pretty long ways out but not positive ID much as just about any 1X small lens head mountable "affordable" thermal. is limited on positive ID. However the 24/7 ability to scan will detect lots of potential targets to further investigate with a more powerful rifle mounted thermal weapon sight.

Now, I know I might catch some "heat" for this, but I would get a Flir PTS 233. These are very tough reliable scopes that perform very well out to about 250 yards for shooting and also detect a good ways out and will be the tool you would use to get a more positive ID on critters you detect.

You can buy both of those devices for about a total of $4,000 bucks and you can do everything you stated pretty darn good.

I run the snot out of suggestions to you above and also have a lot of time behind MFAL/LAM both civi & full powered that were even mounted on rifles with thermal so I could use either or the other. 95% of the time I use Thermal and reserve the Lasers for unexpected close up critters not expected that just appear all of a sudden within 50 yards.

 

[cgbills]

@WhereNow&How thank you for the insight. I am assuming the "heat" on the FLIR PTS 233 recommendation comes Flir civilian sales being discontinued. Is there a comparable sight i can keep my eyes open for in addition to the Flir? I have heard about the Bering optics Hogster.

Also do you think a thermal sight that can double as a helmet mounted scanner/monocular would be viable? I think the Triji REAP-ir is dual purpose like this, but is probably too spendy. Is there a more reasonable unit that could fill a dual role like this ?

 

[WhereNow&How]

@WhereNow&How thank you for the insight. I am assuming the "heat" on the FLIR PTS 233 recommendation comes Flir civilian sales being discontinued. Is there a comparable sight i can keep my eyes open for in addition to the Flir? I have heard about the Bering optics Hogster.

Also do you think a thermal sight that can double as a helmet mounted scanner/monocular would be viable? I think the Triji REAP-ir is dual purpose like this, but is probably too spendy. Is there a more reasonable unit that could fill a dual role like this ?

Correct on the "heat". Still and all, I have found the Flir Thermosight Line to be the best all round featured, most durable, trouble free and least costly of pretty much all of the common units out there. Maybe I might regret that down the line if I ever have an issue and Flir tosses me to the curb on fixing it, but as soon as they announced no more civi units I grabbed another one (536) and a buddy of mine grabbed a (536) as well. I own 233's, 536 and 736 and Breach's.

One very critical thing with me and Thermals is the ability to power them externally without cables running all over the place (Snagalots) I call them and also, the external power plug (USB C Port) not being able to be disconnected. The Flir Thermosight line is the only Thermal Scope out there that has a pic rail in the right place that allows me to assemble and put on the scope such as there is zero snagging or unplugging of the external battery source. That is one of my real bias's in favor of the Flir Thermosights. Take a good look at the photo below and you will see there is absolutely know way that external power C Port cable can accidentally be disconnected. The battery and bicycle inner-tube around the battery provides a very firm pressure on that plug. That unit will run 11.5 hours constant on at 70 degrees in a hassle proof external power setup.

I believe the Reap & Patrol are really on the heavy side to be helmet mounted. Yes you can do it but they pretty heavy systems. I would prefer the lighter Breach. Much more helmet friendly in a lot of ways. Plus the Reap Version 1 with the "inline battery housing" is a known design defect that results frequently in a busted battery housing from recoil. A recent poster reported that Trijicon wanted $5,000 to repair his unit.

I have looked somewhat at the Hogster Clip on and it seems to have a great image. However, I don't know much about all their features, housing construction and overall durability. So until I see something come out that will fill my needs all the way round that is durable, I am going to stick with the Flir Thermosights. They have just proven themselves to me such that I trust these units more than most others.

 

[PlinkIt]

Opinions... But I'll add one.
Forget the NV on the rifle.
For hunting go thermal all the way.
I'm on a different thought path than @WhereNow&How though because I'm actually trying to ditch my breach and swap my helmet over to the patrol right now (still need some power cables to run like my breach was, but it's working on batteries for now). I am MUCH MUCH happier with my ability to see what's going on with the patrol vs the breach. The weight difference is negligible in the grand scheme of all the JUNK that's on the helmet already. I 100% want that extra ability for the item that I spend the MAJORITY of my time looking through. Breach is smaller, lighter, and cheaper though... I won't argue with those points, And sometime budget is the deciding factor for these things lets be honest

So now let's say you have a nice 14 & thermal on helmet to spot with (patrol for example has a HUGE field of view)...
Laser is a great way to cover ground and if stalking this is a dream set up to get started I believe.

Now when budget allows I 100% believe you want a higher magnification thermal for that longer range ID and shooting vs the helmet method.

Above is where I'm finally making it.
14&patrol on helmet
IR laser & Halo LR on rifle

I can't imagine a better DEDICATED night set up at this point.

 

[WhereNow&How]

@PlinkIt You have a very good excellent setup for sure.

However, there is another option with the Breach. You can buy a 3X Torrey Pine Logic Germanium Magnifier for between $1,500 and $2,000 and when you want higher performance out of the Breach just hold it up to the Breach and Presto, you have 62 mm of Germanium gathering a sh^t load of information that turns the Breach into a Mighty Mouse.

It will actually slightly outperform a Patrol in really good thermal conditions. You will see below the significance in Bad Thermal Conditions. At 2x the Patrol is at 320 x 240 for 76,800 Pixels working through a 19mm (focasable) lens at 3 Power.

With a Breach 320 unit with 3x TPL Magnifier you are at 320 x 256 for 81,920 Pixels working through a 62 mm lens (fixed lens) at 3 Power.

So the Breach with TPL Magnifier runs say $4,000. and Triji Patrol runs say $6,000. So you are $2,000 cheaper and much lighter with the Breach & TPL hand held magnifier.

Keep your helmet as light as possible with Breach and if you need much higher performance reach in your pouch for your magnifier.

Now here is the real deal as I have checked this setup against a buddy of mines Patrol. Even though the Patrol has a focusable lens, the Breach with TPL Magnifier has 6.7% more Pixels working and gives a much longer detection range and just as good of or slightly better in good thermal conditions. In bad thermal conditions because bigger Germanium lens just gathers way more data than a smaller lens, the Breach with TPL Magnifier will really outperform the Patrol.

A Triji Patrol with 19mm lens has 284 sq mm of Germanium working.

A Breach with 3x TPL 62 mm lens has 3,019 sq mm of Germanium working.

So the Breach setup I am describing has 10.63 times more Germanium surface working to gather data and 6.7% more 12 micron Pixels working.

These are options one must consider in selecting their equipment to be utilized.

 

[texasleftychef]

What’s your budget? I think you have to have thermal for detection no doubt. While others may disagree a 300 or 600 yard shot isn’t going to be realistic with any option than PVS30 or LWTS or UTC with the PVS30 being the only moderately priced option. Even the Halo LR and Reap or Hunter 60 isn’t a good option for those distances in my opinion.

Personally I’d skip Flir and probably Pulsar too unless you get a Pulsar for scanning. I’ve owned both and just my 2 cents. And no experience with new Pulsar line up.


My vote is for a used Reap 35 first gen or Halo LR. Good enough for 100 -200 yard shots and for pigs you can sneak up on them pretty good so no need to take 300-600 yard shots but you could probably identify from that distance with reasonable certainty. The Dloc Mount makes it pretty easy to carry the Reap around too and use as scanner and then put back on your gun when you are ready to get serious.

 

[WhereNow&How]

@texasleftychef You must have missed this thread.

"I received an email from Trijicon just minutes ago. $5K to repair and replace items on a $7.5K unit. Details on when purchased where, etc later if need be but my initial shock response is to tell them to F>>>>>>>S>>>>>>>>>>M>>>>>>>>>>>>>C>>>>>>>>>. Zero options other than to money up."

https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/reap-ir-battery-housing-issue-cracked.6987647/

A used Reap 35 first gen would be the last thing I would recommend unless someone has tons of money to burn. The well known and documented inline battery housing design defect is definitely not a unit I would recommend.

From the tone of OP's first post it appears he is being prudent with his budget which indicates he is not into burning money.

There have been numerous reports of battery housings breaking in all of the Trijicon line that have (inline with the bore) battery housings due to the effects of recoil slamming the battery back and forth in the housing.

Buy a Halo way before a Triji inline unit due to just that one fact. Additionally, I would suspect that used Reaps that have been used a lot may even be getting closer to breaking due to continued battery slamming. You beat on something long enough and the chances of it breaking increase. Further aggravating that situation is that a used Reap first gen would have less (if any) remaining Warranty left.

 

[texasleftychef]

Mine works fine and I bought it used. I think you just need to escalate this some at Trijicon and it will get taken care of. I have a gen 1 Reap 35 and a gen 2 Reap 60. I’d recommend the Reap 1 for the external battery options. Halos are fine too but I’ve seen several posts of issues with them recently too. So what are you going to do. The Reap / Patrol platform has been out quite a while now and these are the first instances of failure other than the recoil and joy stick thing.

Also sounds like he bought it new. Who from? The dealers have a lot clout in these situations too from what I understand. And if he’s only shot it a couple of times surely it’s still under warranty? I feel for the guy but we see these threads All the time and they usually Die out because the manufacturer does them right. Again just my two bits.

 

[PlinkIt]

@WhereNow&How you can also actually put the same magnifier you are referring to on the patrol (which will actually attach to the patrol from my understanding) and again the patrol will have FAR FAR more ability than the breach.... I don't care how you cut it the breach does not compare in ability to the patrol.

what the breach is better on
It's lighter
It's smaller
It's cheaper

But

The capability & image SUCK in comparison.
I was just having a conversation with someone about watching a raccoon in a tree at 280 yards and trying to compare four units for detection / identification. The units being used were the patrol, breach, Halo 25mm and Halo 50mm. The only unit I could actually tell what was in the tree with was the 50mm. The 25mm Halo and the patrol both let me know that something was there, but no idea what it was. I spent nearly a half hour playing with the breach trying to find a setting that would let me know there was something there that I needed to get rifle up to identify, and I finally gave up... If the ops budget and weight requirements push for a breach then do be it, but the patrol is going to be FAR more capable and versatile than the breach. You can also use the patrol with a radius as a range finder like wig does. You can mount laser to the patrol rail for designation of targets. You can also actually mount the patrol to a rifle and use as a scope (m300 variant) (granted this will go back to the Trijicon issue of inline batteries noted before). In the same breath on service Flir fired off pretty much the entire OTS division and nobody actually knows how they will handle service for commercial market once the warranty runs out on these units in limbo right now. Maybe they will continue to service, or maybe they say we filled our warranty obligation at this point and we are going to walk away from the commercial market for good... They already said they don't care if you buy from them, so why should they care if they provide service for you...

I think you will also find the magnifier is not actually 62mm. I was just having a discussion with someone about this magnifier this week and trying to understand why the 60mm patrol was 4.5x but the patrol with this magnifier attached was only 3x magnification. The answer was that the magnifier is giving the objective diameter for it's mm vs the lens size or focal length.

Note if you want the capability, and the size and weight there is the skeetir unit. I can't speak on a comparison there though as I haven't been willing to fork out the cash for it.

 

[cgbills]

Thanks for the replies. While I wish I could swing something like a Patrol and a separate 640x480 scope, that is just not in the budget. I am looking into $5k range. If I did a separate scanner and scope, it seems like both would need to be in the lower res to fit in the budget. Something like a breacher and a Hogster.

What do you all think of the PVS30 refurb option? I have seen some preowned refurbs floating around for $4k-$4.5k. This would allow for a $1K thermal scanner. Look for the glow, then use the scope and PVS30 to ID. Would such a lower end scanner even be able to detect at 300-600yard ranges? Again this option maybe a bit overkill for the 300 and in ranges that I will be hunting 90% of the time.

 

[PlinkIt]

If looking at budget and a pvs30 in the same sentence... I'd be much more tempted to look into the SIMRAD clip-on units.

I specifically purchased a 253 this past summer to try out, and I was very impressed with it's ability. Again back to my OPINIONATED comment... Thermal & thermal for hunting is the way to go I feel like.

I actually just listed my SIMRAD clip-on unit as I really don't use it since getting into the thermal units.

 

[Geeb]

Plink, what kind of detection range would you say the breach has? If it can't see a raccoon at 280 yards it must not be very good at all. I had considered getting one for my next helmet mounted scanner, I'll pass if detection isn't any better than what you described.

CG, I don't think you will find any kind of thermal scanner for 1k that would be worth 1k. I would say the breach is the bottom of the barrel price wise (from my understanding the leupold's and other cheap options aren't really useable for hunting purposes) and from plink's description, the breach wouldn't be worth it's price tag either.

There seems to be more companies coming out with helmet sized options, hopefully someone will bring out a useable / affordable option.

 

[Bravo6niner]

I agree with plinkit on thermal and thermal for hunting.

 

[wigwamitus]

Wow, this is a great discussion, how did I miss it !!

What I didn't see was the COTI ... COTI enables short distance fast engagements with laser in cases where thermal can see the target and 14 cannot.

Here's my ideal full helmet setup (I run minimalist setups with less) for general walkin and stalkin ...

From top to bottom:

Skeet
14
COTI

==

And here's my current long distance thermal spotter/thermal range finder ...

With the Raytheon 3xG magnifier on there, it works fine up to 12x net magnification able to see cattle out to 5,300yds at night and able to range 3,300 yds at night.

It can be worn on the helmet, though it is a bit heavy. Add more counter-weight !!

==
I use UTC/UTCx and KN203/253 for thermal and NV clipons for shooting from set position off tripods (or rarely prone).

 

[wigwamitus]

re-reading the OPs first post, I think the first "decision" he needs to make is whether he wants to optimize for a "walking and stalking" type of hunting ... or a "rifle on tripod" kind of setup.

For walking and stalking I use full helmet NODs (nv and thermal) and a carbine. Currently I just use laser but I've used dedicated thermal in the past. This sort of setup is lighter and handier, easier to cross fences, move up and down hills, etc.

For setup, I use mostly bolt guns on tripods with clipons. That might involve walking to the setup spot ... and if a stoner type rifle is used, it could have a laser and be used for snap shots while on the move. The tripod would be in a carry scabbard on your back.

For hog hunting, I prefer the carbine myself as it is usually possible to stalk up well inside 100yds before starting to volley. And the carbine allows faster movement for optimal positioning against a group of sounders.

For yotes, for overwatching my cattle, I use rifle on tripod because I can hit out much further.

So I do both styles ... but it is different gear for each style.

Hence, pick what style you will optimize for first, that will help you zero in on the gear that will best match up with that style.

Given your description of your local terrain and that you will be there most of the time, I would optimize for that if it was me.

 

[PlinkIt]

@Geeb please understand that I'm saying the raccoon was in a tree. So even though it didn't currently have leaves it did have various branches helping to mask his signature. But as general rule of only small parts of a big animal, or a small animal are mixed into limbs, brush, or weeds I personally think the breach is dead at that type of range. Now if you are walking open field for a fat hog you could likely see either further than you could shoot it though! You might not be able to tell what it was though with that type of distance, but you'll know it's there. This is my second breach and I keep coming back to them because they are small and cheap, but I finally got a patrol and it's no contest. If you are looking for small animals or predators that might be trying to sneak along in cover the breach is not what you need. The patrol is BIGGER, HEAVIER, and more EXPENSIVE. It's also worth carrying the weight, and every penny of the difference in price (note though this is an OPINION... y.m.m.v. depending on your situation though)

 

[WhereNow&How]

@PlinkIt

@WhereNow&How you can also actually put the same magnifier you are referring to on the patrol (which will actually attach to the patrol from my understanding) and again the patrol will have FAR FAR more ability than the breach.... I don't care how you cut it the breach does not compare in ability to the patrol.

What I was actually trying to demonstrate is that from a Price Vs Performance aspect I can for $4,000 bucks take a Breach & 3 X Magnifier and perform just as good and better in poor thermal conditions than a stand alone Patrol at $6,000 when it comes to detecting and PID if I want the Breach to reach way on out there.

Yes, I have a buddy that has a Patrol and 3x Clip On TPL magifyer and it is a Beast. But you are now up to $6,000 + $2,500 for $8,500 all in.

what the breach is better on
It's lighter
It's smaller
It's cheaper

But

The capability & image SUCK in comparison.

You are correct but again I was doing a Price VS Performance analysis option available to Breach owners. So for $4,000 bucks all in the Breach don't suck.

I was just having a conversation with someone about watching a raccoon in a tree at 280 yards and trying to compare four units for detection / identification. The units being used were the patrol, breach, Halo 25mm and Halo 50mm. The only unit I could actually tell what was in the tree with was the 50mm. The 25mm Halo and the patrol both let me know that something was there, but no idea what it was. I spent nearly a half hour playing with the breach trying to find a setting that would let me know there was something there that I needed to get rifle up to identify, and I finally gave up...

I cannot really tell you about coons at 280 yards as I have never tried to study one at that kind of distance. I have no problems detecting foxes at 250 yards I know that for sure. However, to get the maximum detection ability out of a Breach I suggest turning the Gain up to 200 or more and going to the Arctic Pallete. These 2 settings will give you maximum detection for a stand alone Breach without a Magnifier on it. However, the Breach by itself is best for just detection and not positive ID.

I think you will also find the magnifier is not actually 62mm. I was just having a discussion with someone about this magnifier this week and trying to understand why the 60mm patrol was 4.5x but the patrol with this magnifier attached was only 3x magnification. The answer was that the magnifier is giving the objective diameter for it's mm vs the lens size or focal length.

You are completely wrong about the TPL 3x Magnifier not being actually 62 mm of Germanium. See Pic below and actual measurement I just took. The Patrol 60mm has an F1.1 is why it gets to 4.5 Native Magification.

 

[cgbills]

@wigwamitus you stated for walking and stalking you currently use carbine and laser, and that you have used a dedicated thermal in the past. Can I ask why you use a laser instead of a thermal scope for walking and stalking and hogs? Do you think it is easier for doing multiple engagements on moving targets?

 

[PlinkIt]

@WhereNow&How

What I was actually trying to demonstrate is that from a Price Vs Performance aspect I can for $4,000 bucks take a Breach & 3 X Magnifier and perform just as good and better in poor thermal conditions than a stand alone Patrol at $6,000 when it comes to detecting and PID if I want the Breach to reach way on out there.

Yes, I have a buddy that has a Patrol and 3x Clip On TPL magifyer and it is a Beast. But you are now up to $6,000 + $2,500 for $8,500 all in.

You are correct but again I was doing a Price VS Performance analysis option available to Breach owners. So for $4,000 bucks all in the Breach don't suck.

I can see where you are going with this on cost yes. And that's what I keep saying it price, weight, and size the breach wins on. The magnifier is an interesting "trick" to try and get it balanced out though

I cannot really tell you about coons at 280 yards as I have never tried to study one at that kind of distance. I have no problems detecting foxes at 250 yards I know that for sure. However, to get the maximum detection ability out of a Breach I suggest turning the Gain up to 200 or more and going to the Arctic Pallete. These 2 settings will give you maximum detection for a stand alone Breach without a Magnifier on it. However, the Breach by itself is best for just detection and not positive ID.

Just like I was saying above as well that I agree with this when in open spaces, but the sneaking in cover and small animals the breach just doesn't get it done (now maybe if you can mount the magnifier in front of the breach without holding it I could see it being an interesting scanner)

You are completely wrong about the TPL 3x Magnifier not being actually 62 mm of Germanium. See Pic below and actual measurement I just took. The Patrol 60mm has an F1.1 is why it gets to 4.5 Native Magification.

Now that is interesting on the size of the unit. Interesting on the F# being the difference... I'll shave to do some more research on the difference between the 60mm patrol vs the standard patrol to try and understand why one comes out to 3x vs the 4.5x... I didn't expect different numbers between the two patrol units

I found references for F/1.2 on all 19mm units but the 60mm @ 1.25

 

[wigwamitus]

... you stated for walking and stalking you currently use carbine and laser, and that you have used a dedicated thermal in the past. Can I ask why you use a laser instead of a thermal scope for walking and stalking and hogs? Do you think it is easier for doing multiple engagements on moving targets? ...

In my home base area, I'm roaming along the various creek banks around here going after predators that go after both my chickens and my calves. So I'm not going after multiple sounders since there are zero hogs in my home base area.

If I was going after hogs, I could put either my skeet or patrol on a carbine and run those are dedicated rifle scopes. This would also push out the engagement distance to at least 200yds.

I'm not optimizing for hogs, since I have none. I'm optimizing for what I'm doing around my home base every night and I recommend that sort of optimization for everyone. Optimize for what you do every day/night, not for what you do 1-2 times per year (my hog hunting in texas has been 1-4 per year, but that's not really any different than 1-2).


==
I think laser will definitely work for hogs, but I have not done it. I probably won't even go to Texas to do hogs much more, not sure it is worth the travel time for me. It is good practice for team engagements, that's the value I get out of it. But if you have the team locally, you can practice locally and that's what I'm shifting to.

I've got plenty of action around where I am

One thing about laser, which I've seen, is it is easier to look around and see a second target critter that might be near by because we have much more FOV with 1x devices. For inside 100yds 1x is very valuable. And I've also used Q-14 and ODIN as 1x dedicated scopes on .22LR for coons, opossum, rats, inside 100yds.
Laser is also fast, because you don't have to completely pull up and aim thru the scope, high ready works fine, even literal hipshoot with a 556.

But the main benefit I was going after in dropping the dedicated thermals was to have every rifle/carbine be day/night capable and I don't consider dedicated thermal scopes to be something I would want to use during the day, except in an emergency, if I had didn't have anything better to grab. But I'd rather have an RDS on a carbine for day shooting. And a laser works well for what I do around here, especially with a COTI.

Lighter weight is a second benefit. The EOTECH I have on there now, is lighter than the Mk3 60mm I had on there before.

The Patrol with 3xG replaces the mk3 60mm for a long distance thermal spotter.

 

[GBMaryland]

The SkeetIR-X is a fantastic thermal... but its also very expensive.

 

[WhereNow&How]

In my home base area, I'm roaming along the various creek banks around here going after predators that go after both my chickens and my calves. So I'm not going after multiple sounders since there are zero hogs in my home base area.

If I was going after hogs, I could put either my skeet or patrol on a carbine and run those are dedicated rifle scopes. This would also push out the engagement distance to at least 200yds.

I'm not optimizing for hogs, since I have none. I'm optimizing for what I'm doing around my home base every night and I recommend that sort of optimization for everyone. Optimize for what you do every day/night, not for what you do 1-2 times per year (my hog hunting in texas has been 1-4 per year, but that's not really any different than 1-2).


==
I think laser will definitely work for hogs, but I have not done it. I probably won't even go to Texas to do hogs much more, not sure it is worth the travel time for me. It is good practice for team engagements, that's the value I get out of it. But if you have the team locally, you can practice locally and that's what I'm shifting to.

I've got plenty of action around where I am

One thing about laser, which I've seen, is it is easier to look around and see a second target critter that might be near by because we have much more FOV with 1x devices. For inside 100yds 1x is very valuable. And I've also used Q-14 and ODIN as 1x dedicated scopes on .22LR for coons, opossum, rats, inside 100yds.
Laser is also fast, because you don't have to completely pull up and aim thru the scope, high ready works fine, even literal hipshoot with a 556.

But the main benefit I was going after in dropping the dedicated thermals was to have every rifle/carbine be day/night capable and I don't consider dedicated thermal scopes to be something I would want to use during the day, except in an emergency, if I had didn't have anything better to grab. But I'd rather have an RDS on a carbine for day shooting. And a laser works well for what I do around here, especially with a COTI.

Lighter weight is a second benefit. The EOTECH I have on there now, is lighter than the Mk3 60mm I had on there before.

The Patrol with 3xG replaces the mk3 60mm for a long distance thermal spotter.

There is a lot of wisdom in this post, that comes from time, money, hard work and an analytical mindset.

I would advise anyone (especially newcomers) trying to learn the ins and outs of NV, Lasers and Thermals to read this post several times and let it sink in what is being stated.

 

[WhereNow&How]

They do however have one shot that is 300 and another at 600, though these are the exceptions. I have a bolt gun and AR10 in 6.5CM, but will likely run any dedicated thermal Scope on an AR15 in 6.8 SPC, 6.5 Grendel, or a wildcat of these two cases. I was thinking I would run a dedicated thermal scope and use the PVS14 for navigation. However, I have been thinking over a few other options.

@cgbills I'm gonna throw my 2 cents in on the 600 yards shooting at night. That is a very long ways at night for shooting animals. Big difference killing animals vs shooting steel. I think the 6.5 Grendel will have around 750 ft lbs energy at 600 yards and the 6.8 SPC around 500 ft lbs. That was just a quick look see as I am not very seasoned with those Calibers. But I am very well seasoned with killing critters.

However, the point I'm trying to set forth for you to really consider, is that for consistent killing of hogs you would probably be a good bit on the light side, especially at long range with marginal accuracy on bullet placement inherent with that kind of distance on a moving animal. Critters very rarely stay still for very long. For me personally, I would just get closer to critter. That is pretty easy to do at night. Closer means more accurate bullet placement and more killing power delivered to critter.

I have a 270 Win bolt with a Flir PTS 736 (6x native mag) which is a longer range night time killing machine if you need it to be. Still all that being said, I'm gonna get the dead nuts upper hand on critter if at all possible before the engagement starts.

To me 300 yards is a long ways out at night in a dynamic critter elimination scenario. You have a marginal rest at best to make the shot. So any setup that can perform well at 300 yards at night off of a marginal rest and get a high percentage of real kill shots is plenty adequate in my book. That's just my 2 cents for what it is worth.

The Indian most of the time, means more than the bow.

 

[cgbills]

@WhereNow&How Thanks for the post. I was only considering such a rare 600 yard night shot with a pvs30 or pvs27 mounted to my 6.5CM bolt gun. If i did not go that route on a 6.5CM and did a small frame AR-15 caliber, any such distance shot would be off the table. However, you are correct that even such a hunting shot at night with a 6.5CM is sub-optimal and difficult. Also taking into account Wigwamitus' recommendation of optimizing your setup for what type of hunting you most often do, I think the pvs 30 or 27 is off the table.

Taking into account my budget and my primary hunting, I think I have 2 options on the table. One is to get 2 lower res thermal units; a scanner and a dedicated sight. The other option is to get one higher res thermal sight. Cost itself my put me with the first option, as almost all 640x480 sights are too expensive. The only dedicated 640x480 sight I can find in my price range is the Pulsar Thermion XP38. However, after reading of shifting zero, I do not have much faith in this optic (not to mention the battery life). I guess the othe option in this price range would be a used MkII hunter.

 

[wigwamitus]

Another option is to "save your way into a higher price range". Unless you are in a desperate hurry !!

==

When I got my UTC-x, first I sold $12k worth of my crap ... and then I "borrowed" the rest of the $6k I needed to cover the $18k cost and paid it back over the next 12 months, from my monthly "allowance" and my annual bonus.

For years I scoffed at the idea of paying over $10k for an optic ... and then I did it ... and now don't question the decision ... I even did it again this year ... but sold $20k of my crap this time ...

 

[cgbills]

@wigwamitus I have thought about saving up to get into the Hunter or Halo optic. Also I am currently in the sell a bunch of my crap phase lol. However, there is a bit of an unwritten rule in the house to not have too much tied up in hobbies. My wife gave my crap for months when she saw the cost of my L3 WP filmless PVS14. I can only image the blowback after a Triji electro optic purchase lol. Though I maybe able to justify the purchase, but it will likely be the last big ticket purchase for some time

 

[wigwamitus]

Hum. I am allowed to sell my crap and then put that money back into new crap.



And for your case, doing that would not be changing the amount tied up in "hobbies" ... just swapping out the green gear for the blue gear, eh ??

 

[texasleftychef]

Another option is to "save your way into a higher price range". Unless you are in a desperate hurry !!

==

When I got my UTC-x, first I sold $12k worth of my crap ... and then I "borrowed" the rest of the $6k I needed to cover the $18k cost and paid it back over the next 12 months, from my monthly "allowance" and my annual bonus.

For years I scoffed at the idea of paying over $10k for an optic ... and then I did it ... and now don't question the decision ... I even did it again this year ... but sold $20k of my crap this time ...

he’s right. I started with Flir 223 and thought I was spending a boatload and now, most at wigs fault and recommendations, I’ve got an entire pile of stuff. The wait and buy better stuff is good advice. not that you don’t already know that but worth saying again.

I wouldn’t be afraid of the used market as long as the warranty carries over. Most people take pretty good care of these things and they are in pretty good shape. Demos are another option to save from retail too. And finally unless you buy top tier stuff you are going to lose a boatload on it if you ever do decide to sell. At least with my experience.

 

[SkyScrapin]

he’s right. I started with Flir 223 and thought I was spending a boatload and now, most at wigs fault and recommendations, I’ve got an entire pile of stuff. The wait and buy better stuff is good advice. not that you don’t already know that but worth saying again.

I wouldn’t be afraid of the used market as long as the warranty carries over. Most people take pretty good care of these things and they are in pretty good shape. Demos are another option to save from retail too. And finally unless you buy top tier stuff you are going to lose a boatload on it if you ever do decide to sell. At least with my experience.

Same boat for the most part, but I started with a T50 until an add popped up for the ReapIR lol. Been down hill ever since. ?

 

[WhereNow&How]

he’s right. I started with Flir 223 and thought I was spending a boatload and now, most at wigs fault and recommendations, I’ve got an entire pile of stuff. The wait and buy better stuff is good advice. not that you don’t already know that but worth saying again.

I wouldn’t be afraid of the used market as long as the warranty carries over. Most people take pretty good care of these things and they are in pretty good shape. Demos are another option to save from retail too. And finally unless you buy top tier stuff you are going to lose a boatload on it if you ever do decide to sell. At least with my experience.

While the Germans had the vastly superior tanks in WWII the (Tiger & King Tiger) low production & high cost, the Russian T34 (Pretty Darn Good) had high production & low cost which put the Russians in a position to command the tank battle field at the end of the day so to speak.

Point I am trying to make, is for me (not everyone) a good solid mid line unit will get you on the field and allow you to be effective and win "Your Day" so to speak, by simply being out there at night killin critters and getting experience. For the average guy who is not rich and does not go out a lot and hunt, maybe the top of the line is not a great Cost to Benefit expenditure.

If I was the OP at this point in time for what is available out there. I would grab a PTS 536 and Breach and for right at a total expenditure of $5,300 have a really excellent focasable native 4 power TWS and a decent small light weight head mounted scanner detector (crappy on PID at distance).

I could roll with any of the top of the line units out there in a real hunting scenario killing critters and do just as good as them. Assuming hunting and shooting abilities are the same amongst the individuals. I have 2 buddies that run high end Triji MK 2 35 mm units and in the real world out there hunting scenario they have zero advantage over me. Now the Triji MK 3 60mm, well that is another story. Its probably the best performing common civi available unit out there for distance, however it still has them dam in line batteries which would scare the crap out of me at this point.

 

[WhereNow&How]

My wife gave my crap for months when she saw the cost of my L3 WP filmless PVS14. I can only image the blowback after a Triji electro optic purchase lol. Though I maybe able to justify the purchase, but it will likely be the last big ticket purchase for some time

I'm old skewl. Women tend to women things, and I tend to men things. Dont't concern them with matters they don't understand nor appreciate.

 

[smcfarland]

Another option that worked well for me for many years, but I hunt primarily open terrain in West Texas. If wooded/thick cover then thermal on the weapon is the way to go.
PVS 14 for navigation which you already have.
Get a pulsar handheld thermal for detection. Mine is 5 years old and still works great. Scanning with a thermal on the weapon is terrible.
Another PVS14 with 3x magnifier behind an EoTech on your weapon. This typically provides great PID on the target as you learn thermal signatures of different animals.
Wouldn't work on your 6.5CM, but would be fine for 5.56/300BO. Have made plenty of shots out to 300 with that setup, but most were under 50. Nice, precise shot on the first pig, then turn on laser (doesn't have to be fancy/expensive) for running shots.
If buy used you'd be well under budget. As you get out there and get more experience, you can start saving for what might work even better for your particular style of hunting.

 

[WhereNow&How]

Another PVS14 with 3x magnifier behind an EoTech on your weapon. This typically provides great PID on the target as you learn thermal signatures of different animals.
Wouldn't work on your 6.5CM, but would be fine for 5.56/300BO. Have made plenty of shots out to 300 with that setup, but most were under 50.

The PVS 14 even when stated to handle 556 recoil is really an emergency option offered for Warfighters that found themselves in a bind. Another big issue is that even Night Vision Capable Red Dots/EoTech with NV Settings if left on for any significant time will sit there in one place and burn a PERMANENT DOT in the PVS 14.

Between recoil damage to the PVS 14 and burning a permanent dot in the tube, that is risky business at best. Yes it can be done, but eventually the odds are very high it will come back to haunt you one way or another.

Early on in civi use of PVS 14's when the MFAL/LAM options were few and far between, this was a common route to take. However, there are some pretty hilarious blems in some tubes.

If a person is/was gonna do this, make sure to find a tube with a Halo above say 1.5 if possible to minimize the chances that the Micro Channel Plate will bang into the phosphor screen under recoil.

 

[ryu_sekai]

Correct on the "heat". Still and all, I have found the Flir Thermosight Line to be the best all round featured, most durable, trouble free and least costly of pretty much all of the common units out there. Maybe I might regret that down the line if I ever have an issue and Flir tosses me to the curb on fixing it, but as soon as they announced no more civi units I grabbed another one (536) and a buddy of mine grabbed a (536) as well. I own 233's, 536 and 736 and Breach's.

One very critical thing with me and Thermals is the ability to power them externally without cables running all over the place (Snagalots) I call them and also, the external power plug (USB C Port) not being able to be disconnected. The Flir Thermosight line is the only Thermal Scope out there that has a pic rail in the right place that allows me to assemble and put on the scope such as there is zero snagging or unplugging of the external battery source. That is one of my real bias's in favor of the Flir Thermosights. Take a good look at the photo below and you will see there is absolutely know way that external power C Port cable can accidentally be disconnected. The battery and bicycle inner-tube around the battery provides a very firm pressure on that plug. That unit will run 11.5 hours constant on at 70 degrees in a hassle proof external power setup.

I believe the Reap & Patrol are really on the heavy side to be helmet mounted. Yes you can do it but they pretty heavy systems. I would prefer the lighter Breach. Much more helmet friendly in a lot of ways. Plus the Reap Version 1 with the "inline battery housing" is a known design defect that results frequently in a busted battery housing from recoil. A recent poster reported that Trijicon wanted $5,000 to repair his unit.

I have looked somewhat at the Hogster Clip on and it seems to have a great image. However, I don't know much about all their features, housing construction and overall durability. So until I see something come out that will fill my needs all the way round that is durable, I am going to stick with the Flir Thermosights. They have just proven themselves to me such that I trust these units more than most others.



View attachment 7265256

Damn how heavy is that thing.

 

[WhereNow&How]

Damn how heavy is that thing.

Just a few ounces under 12.5 lbs. Heavy is really good for recoil management when you really gettin down on it.

A wicked night unit that one is.

Performance comes at a price, both in dollars and weight.

 

[ryu_sekai]

Just a few ounces under 12.5 lbs. Heavy is really good for recoil management when you really gettin down on it.

A wicked night unit that one is.

Performance comes at a price, both in dollars and weight.

Not too crazy at 12.5

My MDR 308 is 10lb 10oz