Help: First Ladder Test...now what?

[Vandy321]

First time working up a load. Not sure where to go from here?

Any and all in ours welcome. #2 was on me.

300wm, berger 215s, H1000, .020 jump, 2.781 CBTO, 3.565 COAL

Indoors, shot over Mag Speed V3, 100 yards (should it string that much at 100?) Zero target at bottom is 2" by 2", aiming bottom left and dialed up (except fouler)

Hunting rifle, all shots were cold bore.

Thinking 76 to 77.6 is my high node.

Saw pressure at 78.5 (primer flattened ing, bolt lift wasnt sticky as far as I can tell).

Where to go from here. Load 76.7 and do searing depth or load some 3 round groups first?

 

[ShtrRdy]

To do a proper ladder test you need to be shooting at a much longer distance.

However, if I was to use just this information I would work around the 77.0 gr load. Shots 6, 7, 8 were close together and the velocity step was somewhat smaller.

 

[Vandy321]

I asked this question earlier, but if a ladder is to visually print on paper a velocity node, sure the stringing will be less pronounced, but if that node is confirmed with chrono data, dont you get to the same result?

Would I come to a diferent conclusion at 200 or 300 based on the same chrono data?

Not asking to be confrontational, I really just dont know what I dont know.

 

[ShtrRdy]

No worries. As I understand the ladder test you fire one round at each load setting like you did and then look for where the bullet holes end up next to each other. Velocity isn't considered as part of the ladder test.

The other test you tried to include is what I have been calling the Satterlee test. This is where you measure the velocity at each load point. The load charge weight usually increments by 0.2 grain. Then you look for velocity that stays close to the same for adjacent charge weights.

You must have had the Magnetospeed attached while you were firing? That can affect the harmonics of the barrel as well as cause the POI to shift.

Nice picture in your Avatar. Where is that located?

 

[Vandy321]

Yeah, this was from Scott Satterly I think, he recommended .5 he for magnums.

Not the audette ladder test. Have heard the name, that's it.

Profile pic is with my dogs on a hike near Mt Ouray

 

[pbatesaz]

I think that your reloading process has to be really refined to use the Satterlee method or a one shot test of any kind. There is just too much variation from shot to shot under any but the most controlled circumstances to draw any useful conclusions. Hey if you are one of those guys that neck turns, sorts brass by weight or volume, weighs bullets and sorts by length, measures primer seating depth, measures your powder to the kernel, or if you get ES less than 10 routinely on 20 shot samples, then you can possibly do a Satterlee preliminary workup. But if you don’t routinely get those results, think about using a larger shot sample... at least 3 to start. My opinion is worth what you just paid for it. I hope you find a load that satisfies your needs, which should dictate how far you are willing to go with this. If you are shooting big critters at 100 or 200 yards, it is a whole different game from whacking a 1 moa steel plate or a bogey at 1000 plus yds. Not meaning to rain on you, just don’t want to see you wasting your resources. Really hope for the best results for you.

 

[Supersubes]

Man, that is an insane amount of vertical for the charge spread. Don’t know what to think about that. I’d have done it at 500 yds or beyond. I also typically do OCW for more data points.

 

[Vandy321]

Not sure what to think, this was neck turned, weighed exactly, neck sized down and final tension set with .306 expander, primers seated to a .2 crush, eedding comp dies, a Co-Ax press, etc. etc....everything I could do on my part to make it shoot.

Safe to say 76.5-77.5 is a decent place to load around and check groups at range?

 

[kingston]

I’d load 77gr and start looking at seating depths.

I do Satterlee type ladders with 3 to 5 rounds of each variation, but at 400 yrds or greater. I do this for both powder charge and seating depth.

 

[Vandy321]

I’d load 77gr and start looking at seating depths.

I do Satterlee type ladders with 3 to 5 rounds of each variation, but at 400 yrds or greater. I do this for both powder charge and seating depth.

Thanks. I'll have more time to fine tune after hunting season. For now. If I can get it to hold sub moa at 500, i'l be happy.

Do another ladder test for searing depth at 77, or shoot groups at 77 with dif jumps?

Heading outdoors on Sunday have access to paper at 200 and steel past 1k

 

[kingston]

You won’t see enough variation with a seating depth ladder at 100yrds. You’d need to do it at 400 minimum. I color the tips with sharpies. The ink is left on the target so you know which hits are which. I weigh bullets, and select cases for utmost uniformity.

If you’re going to continue load development at 100, I’d just shoot groups.

 

[Vandy321]

I can move it out, and plan on doing so Sunday outdoors. I just wanted to shoot the first over the chrono in perfect conditions to try to find a general high node.

 

[clcustom1911]

77gr +/- half a grain or so is usually a good spot to play around.

 

[kingston]

You don’t want to do ladder tests with the MagnetoSpeed attached to the barrel. Once you get a load developed you can get a velocity sample.

 

[pbatesaz]

Not sure what to think, this was neck turned, weighed exactly, neck sized down and final tension set with .306 expander, primers seated to a .2 crush, eedding comp dies, a Co-Ax press, etc. etc....everything I could do on my part to make it shoot.

Safe to say 76.5-77.5 is a decent place to load around and check groups at range?

Ok it seems that you ARE one of “those guys” ?. The problem with going to groups at distance is that there is more chance for environmental factors to play a role in the observed results. Personally I would probably take the range of 76.5 to 77.5 at 0.2 gr intervals and shoot 5 rounds of each at any distance just to measure ES over a chrony. I would look at ES as the larger of the recorded ES or 4 times the SD. Pick the charge that has the lowest actual or expected ES, take off the magnetospeed and shoot groups for a seating depth test. I like to shoot groups at 200 yds... gives a bit more spread than at 100, but not much wind effect in reasonable conditions. In a pinch I would just take the 77 gr charge and do a seating test. But being the curious sort I would still look at ES over at least 5 rounds. Take a look at what the effect of the ES would be at the distances you may hunt and determine how much variability in poi is ethical for the species given the limitation of your load and environmental conditions like wind, shooting position etc. and go for it. Good luck on your hunt... want to see the photos.

 

[supercorndogs]

I dont do anything in magnum cases in .2 intervals. 1% of the powder charge would be .7. Seems to me like the good spot is usually 2 or 3 grains wide in my 300wm.

 

[pbatesaz]

I dont do anything in magnum cases in .2 intervals. 1% of the powder charge would be .7. Seems to me like the good spot is usually 2 or 3 grains wide in my 300wm.

Yeah I think you’re right. My 0.2 gr is overkill. I don’t shoot the heavy hitters anymore so think in terms of my workups. The OP 0.5 gr intervals are fine and it will save time and materials.

 

[Vandy321]

I'm not saying I'm a competent reloader, far from it, this was my first load. But I went as overboard as I can with the prep to be as consistent as possible.

Running out of time to get this dialed. Am going to trust the chrono numbers. Load up 5 at the 77gr middle of that flat spot and shoot over chrono for ES. If it holds single digits, I'll be happy in a hunting rifle. Then will run seating depth from .010-.040 at 300 to see if I can tighten groups up without getting into seating it deep and causing pressure and maybe pushing me out of the node.

Ya'll are awesome. I'll post up some results. Good or bad and feel free to throw spears, I can take it. It's a gamble on that 77, would like to test more, but I've gotta do it, just short on time.

 

[pbatesaz]

Single digit ES might be tough. If you get it great, but that might be unnecessary. See what you get, see what poi impact shift you would get with that ES at your longest expected shot and decide if that’s tolerable. If it is, great. If not you either have to look at closer shots or look for a different load. No one will throw spears. Everyone who reloads here has been where you are.

 

[kingston]

The problem with using a MagnetoSpeed is that you really can’t look at velocity and groups at the same time. You’re only able to get data on one or the other. Last year, I chased my tail doing load work up for a 28 Nosler using a MS. The MS not only affected POI, but group size. This precipitated my transition to the labRadar. I’m not saying you can’t do load work up without a Labradar or Oehler.

If using a MagnetoSpeed, I’d find a load that performs (groups) and then get a velocity sample. You’re really best off doing load work up the same way you would if you didn’t have a chronograph.

 

[Vandy321]

Do I have a decent plan for tomorrow?

Load 77gr...shoot 5 over the chrono for SD/ES and to verify velocity.

Next seating depth test or more charges at plus or minus .2gr on that load?

Right now I'm planning to shoot those 5 at 77 and 020 jump over the mag speed and take it off.

Set up at 300 yards and shoot 4 seating depth tests at .010-.040 (trying not to change/impact case pressure and push myself out that node)

Once I find seating depth, I'll take that load and go a few 10th over and under and pick the best ES.

Sound good for a hurry job?

Also, do I need to keep shooting all of these cold bore if it's a hunting rifle? Assuming yes, but shit that takes all morning.

 

[kingston]

Ultimately, velocity doesn’t matter as long as all the bullets go to the same place out to your maximum intended hunting range.

If you’re set on the plan above, load 10 @ 77 and .020 jump. Fire 5 with the MS mounted on the barrel and and 5 without. Do this at 100 or 200, each 5 round string at a unique target. Compare the group’s sizes and POIs.

I develop loads on a warm barrel. If the barrel ever gets too hot for the tender flesh in the web between my middle and ring fingers (when measured where the forend stops), it’s too hot. A rifle built with quality components, that’s sufficiently epoxy bedded will shoot to the same POI cold or not.

That said, I usually shoot a fouler to begin the day, most of the time it doesn’t matter unless the barrel has been cleaned to bare metal or sat for an extended period of time and fouling in the barrel has significantly flashed (oxidized). In almost all cases, I’m developing loads on a fouled and seasoned barrel that hasn’t been cleaned.

Once you get a load developed on a warm barrel, you can experiment with cold bore POI. In doing so it would be ideal to get unencumbered velocities, i.e. not with a MS attached to the barrel.

 

[TriggerHappy0125]

The problem with using a MagnetoSpeed is that you really can’t look at velocity and groups at the same time. You’re only able to get data on one or the other. Last year, I chased my tail doing load work up for a 28 Nosler using a MS. The MS not only affected POI, but group size. This precipitated my transition to the labRadar. I’m not saying you can’t do load work up without a Labradar or Oehler.

If using a MagnetoSpeed, I’d find a load that performs (groups) and then get a velocity sample. You’re really best off doing load work up the same way you would if you didn’t have a chronograph.

I’m not an expert, but here is what i do. if you are using Magneto Speed (which i do) you want to find your velocity node first, don't worry about groups. I typically load 1 of each charge, like others have mentioned you have to have your loading technique down. I use 120xi and Auto trickler v3, so i know my charge weights are dead on. I am working through the same process now with my 300 Bergara HMR. Once you have the velocity node, load 5 of a range with your data i would do 76.5 - 77.5. I did .3 increments, because i am a bit anal, but as others have mention .5 is probably good. Take your time, focus and make each shot the best you can. You should be able to dial in on a good charge weight and decent groups. Depending on the rifle you can make seating depth adjustment once you have the charge weight. I say depending on the rifle because my Howa could shoot longer OAL but i am restricted to magazine length, it didn't matter because it shoots lights out with that length. Once you have everything nailed down, shoot ten with magneto speedto get your final velocity numbers for dope calculations. Remove the magneto speed and shoot, make final zero adjustments and you are set.

 

[Vandy321]

Alright fellas. 10mph 1/2 value wind (so 5mph), working on wind holds between groups, but it was steady at that.

300 yards. All loaded to 77gr. ES over 5 shot group was 19, SD was 7.7. Didnt run the chrono on the groups on steel pictured. Barrel was cooled 10+ minutes between groups (each shot is not cold bore). Speed at 77 in my ladder was 2950. Today (10 deg warmer today, the average at 77 was 2965, pushing me up to the speeds I saw at 77.5 in my test? Did it push me to the high part of my node (76.5-77.5)

Not sure what to make of this...can anyone find a seating depth from this? Dont wanna go over .040 or so based on 77 is already a light compressed load. Am I concerned mainly with the horizontal at a constant charge weight for seating depth, or it effects the vertical too?

Where to go from here? What depth to go with while I test charges at 76.8, 77, and 77.2?

1st group: .010 jump. (.43 MOA), but about .75" of horizontal. Spotter says that 3rd shot just passed at top of steel where I have it marked, probably not valid data since I cant see it on the target. I trust him though, very experienced shooter, spotted through swaro glass)

2nd Group: .020 jump (.72 MOA) about 2" or horizontal stringing

3rd Group: .030 jump (.58 MOA) .74" of horizontal

4th group: .040 jump (.75 MOA) 1.7" horizontal

 

[kingston]

Speed averages on small sample sizes can only be taken for what they are. Likewise three round groups also represent small sample sizes.

What are the rifle and optic details and round count on bbl?

 

[Vandy321]

Speed averages on small sample sizes can only be taken for what they are. Likewise three round groups also represent small sample sizes.

What are the rifle and optic details and round count on bbl?

300wm, berger 215s, 26" proof, bighorn SR3, sitting in a non-adjustable EH1, glass is an S&B 5-25

Round count is 75 after 18 fired today.

 

[kingston]

Well that should shoot, I’m assuming it’s bedded. The barrel likely has some more speeding up to do. Are you shooting prone? I wouldn’t be working too hard to develop a load until the barrel sped up and settled down.

 

[Vandy321]

Just trying to get something decent prior to hunting season. Shooting prone with rear bag. I could shoot my AI .308 at .25 with FM, so I hope I'm capable of shooting this better, if it is just the shooter keeping the groups large. It's been 2 years since I've shot.

 

[kingston]

With that configuration it should weigh under 11lbs. Is it beating you up? Do you have a flinch when you dry fire? Spike footed bipod? Are the bipod legs slightly loaded? You might tape or strap a pad to the EH1 butt stock. A wide spiked footed bipod can do wonders on a lightweight magnum.

 

[kingston]

Your easily minute of Elk, but a rifle built right and with those components should shoot. You might want to try a few different bullets. Maybe the ELDX.

Are you using a drop tube or vibrating charges? If you need more jump, it might be worth trying, particularly for a hunting rifle where you're not saddled with the extra effort to the tune of thousands of rounds a year. Likewise, have you tried .005 Jump?

I wouldn’t get too frazzled until the rifle had a couple to three hundred rounds through it.

 

[kingston]

Load ten with 77gr seating the 215 Berger’s at .005 jump and shoot them at the same POA at a rate of 1 every two minutes. If the first 5 are all over the place stop and seat the remaining five deeper.

Those groups look pretty good as it is.

 

[Vandy321]

Just loaded up 5 each 76.8, 77.0, 77.2 seated .010 jump.

Will see how it shoots.

 

[Vandy321]

Now I'm beginning to get frustrated. Even a bad load should shoot better than .75 out of this rifle, no? I felt like all these shots were good, and about as stable as I ever get.

This was 5 at 76.8, 77, 77.2 @ .010 jump
2 min intervals.

I cant do any better on brass prep, all necks measure concentric, I measure everyone after I seat it both necks and CBTO, primers all set and measured to a .001-.002 crush, pockets uniformed, flash hole debuted, next bushing sized down with .331 bushing (.013 neck wall) then expanded out with .306 mandrel.

Suggestions? What can I check on the rifle? Barrel isnt contacting stock, brake isnt lose? Heck even the scope was mounted by pro shooter. Action was torqued to 65 front and back, maybe find a torque wrench and check that held?

 

[Vandy321]

I'm not that bad a shot. Here's some factory ammo from my .308View attachment 7140311

 

[kingston]

Try .005 jump and 77gr...

 

[pbatesaz]

I think at 77 and .010 you are good to go for your hunt. Give the barrel a little time and continue your workup after it has 150 to 200 rounds through it. Check action screws, scope mount and anything that may be threaded on the barrel. If nothing is loose have a good hunt. How far away do you plan to shoot your quarry?

 

[Vandy321]

Any reason I'd be chasing this rifle to the left? All day today on steel at 300 and again tonight I doors. It was left on my first group this morning, dialed right, left again, dialed right, left again, for all 4 groups at 300.

Rifle is recoiling off target to the left, so I'm assuming that is the shooter. Right handed shooter, I feel very square behind the rifle, loaded bipod (but not leaning on it hard), slight pull straight back into shoulder with grip, as good/consistent of a trigger squeeze and follow through as I can get.

Is this one of those "it's not me (the rifle), its you (the shooter)" kinda deals?

 

[kingston]

Is your reticle clocked toward 11:00?

 

[Vandy321]

No, it was plumed and mounted and torqued by the guy who makes the rings...straight as it gets.

 

[Vandy321]

It sure looks like it will shoot better than 3/4 MOA....I'm sure it will, just need to figure out what's up, something in my loading, something in my shooting, etc.

 

[pbatesaz]

Any reason I'd be chasing this rifle to the left? All day today on steel at 300 and again tonight I doors. It was left on my first group this morning, dialed right, left again, dialed right, left again, for all 4 groups at 300.

Rifle is recoiling off target to the left, so I'm assuming that is the shooter. Right handed shooter, I feel very square behind the rifle, loaded bipod (but not leaning on it hard), slight pull straight back into shoulder with grip, as good/consistent of a trigger squeeze and follow through as I can get.

Is this one of those "it's not me (the rifle), its you (the shooter)" kinda deals?

If you are still impacting left after dialing right either there is a scope problem (unlikely) or more likely recoil is pushing the butt of the rifle to the right... it doesn’t take much about .001” at the butt can easily move your impact an inch at 100 yds. You may just be letting your frustration mess with you. More free advice: relax, breathe, enjoy your hunt in the beautiful autumn then come back and get some coaching if you think you need it.

 

[Vandy321]

If you are still impacting left after dialing right either there is a scope problem (unlikely) or more likely recoil is pushing the butt of the rifle to the right... it doesn’t take much about .001” at the butt can easily move your impact an inch at 100 yds. You may just be letting your frustration mess with you. More free advice: relax, breathe, enjoy your hunt in the beautiful autumn then come back and get some coaching if you think you need it.

Keep things as they are for now, load the bipod a little more more and see if groups better?

I do think its recoiling off target to the left slightly, that's not helping.

 

[1moaoff]

Hav someone else shoot it.

 

[1moaoff]

Magnums will show flaws in fundamentals faster.

 

[Vandy321]

Magnums will show flaws in fundamentals faster.

Excellent point. I will do that. some of that is almost for sure bad/lacking fundenentals.

 

[ShtrRdy]

On my long range 300 Win Mag I couldn't get the 215 Hybrid to shoot well consistently. I didn't spend a lot of time trying to make it work. I ended up going with the Berger 210 gr. VLD touching the lands. I'm using H1000.

 

[Vandy321]

Update....graphed out my OCW test...figuring 77-78 is my high node? Shot with no chrono. 3 shot groups. Graphed the middle of each group from the 'range buddy's group measuring app. 77-78 was the same POI and a nice flat spot in the vertical. .5-.75 MOA groups between the 3 charges...beginning to think that's as good as I can shoot a 10lb 300wm

Still not happy with the ES...this was at .060 jump now compared to .010 in the previous groups pictured above.

Stick with 77.5 and .060 jump and try CCI primers? Or run another seating test from maybe .030 to .120 jump

Chrono'd 4 after I was done...at 77.5gr, .060 jump and .0015 neck tension
ES 22
SD 9.7
Ave 2981

 

[Vandy321]

Double post...deleted

 

[TriggerHappy0125]

If you really want to find the nodes for the gun leave the chrono on the gun, worry a out groups after you figure out the powder charge. I am not sure what that graph is but your charge weight should be on the x axis and the chrono velocity on the y. When you graph that as a line you should see so e flat spots.

If i were you at this point you have decent group at 77. Load some more of those and go shoot and practice.

You hear a lot about the magneto speed altering POI, and it does, but that does not matter. Do your work with it then take it off and fine tune your zero. I have used it to develop loads for 4 rifles now and it impacted POI on them all but not the groups i was shooting. My 6.5 shoots 0.4” groups at 100 with or without the magneto speed attached. POI with it attached is about 0.5” high and 0.5” to the left versus without it.

 

[Vandy321]

This is not a velocity graph. I think we're talking 2 different tests. OCW doesnt include velocity, per say. As I understand it, it looks to identify a node of 3 charge weights that have the same relative POI when compared to other charge weights, meaning a stable node of charges (not necessarily the most accurate) but the most consistent over a 1 grain spread. Ideally, this also corresponds to an accuracy node. OCW says to find thar node, then tune group size with seating depth.

That graph is the center point of 3 shot groups plotted from an OCW test, the X is the aiming point they were plotted off.

Charge weight for each group listed next to the plot.