Help me analyze this target! (178gr HPBT w/Varget)

[deadnbrkn84]

Ok so let me start by giving you all a little background. I was shooting Nosler Custom Comp 168/Nosler Brass/45.0 Varget/CCI BR-2. The rifle is a
Remington AAC-SD .308 20" 1:10 Barrel. I was consistently shooting "bug hole" groups with the rifle (so the rifle and myself are capable). I decided that I wanted to ditch the 168's and shoot solely 175/8 grain bullets for better long distance performance and ability to fight wind.
So I picked up 400 Hornady 178 HPBT and decided to work up a load. I did an entire OCW test from 43-45.5. It definitely shot the best between the 44-45.5 grain area (which makes sense because it's common knowledge there is a node here with this weight grain bullet). I worked up some more loads (44.5, 44.7, 45, 45.2). I went out and shot these groups. I just cant make much sense out of them. So I wanted your input. Here's the target. It reads like this:

Top left: 44.5
Top right: 44.7
Center: 45.0
Bottom left: 45.2

I know these are shit groups but they are just a starting point. I just can't seem to make a whole lot of sense of it.

Let me know your thoughts on this. Thanks so much.

 

[Mendy300wm]

Re: Help me analyze this target! (178gr HPBT w/Varget)

100yds?

 

[deadnbrkn84]

Re: Help me analyze this target! (178gr HPBT w/Varget)

Oh sorry yes these were (huge) 100yrd groups!

 

[Mendy300wm]

Re: Help me analyze this target! (178gr HPBT w/Varget)

If it was me and I had a day like that, I would load up the same test and go shoot it again... Did you change anything other than the bullet weight?

 

[deadnbrkn84]

Re: Help me analyze this target! (178gr HPBT w/Varget)

I changed from a standard dillon seating die to a Redding competition die. The 168gr nosler custom comps were seated at 2.810" and these are loaded much longer (2.9380"). The 178's are a much longer bullet so if I load to 2.810" I'm definitely going to hinder case capacity. They are still quite a bit off the lands even at this length (damn Remington bottomless throats).

I wasn't going to focus on seating depth yet... I was going off the OCW test where you find the first good grouping THEN tighten it up with seating depth.

 

[MALLARD]

Re: Help me analyze this target! (178gr HPBT w/Varget)

id do a seating depth test , if you think your close to your ideal depth , i might test in .005 increments.

i would load up both 44.5 and 45.0 and shoot all that

but , if you were shooting bugholes with the 168's , i would go back to those.

 

[deadnbrkn84]

Re: Help me analyze this target! (178gr HPBT w/Varget)

The thing is I don't know what ideal seating depth is at all... I'm just kinda guessing here. I don't think it should have THAT big of an impact on 100yrd groups though... I thought it was more of a fine tuning type of thing....

 

[sdunshee]

Re: Help me analyze this target! (178gr HPBT w/Varget)

Im at 44.5 gr varget, Winchester case and 178 amax set .010" off the lands in my buddies SPS-Tactical....makes for a really long round.

 

[shooterone]

Re: Help me analyze this target! (178gr HPBT w/Varget)

Deadbrkn84,
I spent yesterday shooting 178 gr amax bullets over 44 gr varget with br2 primers using lapua brass. I am loading at 2.81oal and shooting a Remington 700 with 26" Douglas 1-10" barrel. I chronographed my load at 2690 fps. I compared this load back to back with my 168smk load using Varget powder and the group sizes using the 178gr are without question larger. I was shooting 3/8" 100 yd groups with the 168gr and 5/8" groups with the amax's. That said, the amax's stay under an moa for me at 1000 yards. I would not be using the 178 gr if I were not going out to 1000. My buddy loaded some at 45gr and his rifle did not like it. The groups were more open. Please post your findings when you get this worked out

 

[BIRDHUNTER]

Re: Help me analyze this target! (178gr HPBT w/Varget)

At 2.938, are you into the lands? Try 2.860, should allow you to fit into your mag and I think you will see the groups shrink. Are those rounds you shot from a sled or off a bipod with rear support?

 

[deadnbrkn84]

Re: Help me analyze this target! (178gr HPBT w/Varget)

Well I'm definitely not into the lands. I can load real long because I run alpha type II's and my rifle is modified to feed from them. I can load out to 2.950". These were all shot off a bipod with rear support. Shooting this way I could shoot those one hole groups with the 168's though. I'll try and load some to 2.860" and see what happens. I'm still unsure of the powder charge though.
The 44.0 sounds good I just think it's going to be really slow out of a 20" barrel. I need all the powder I can get. I dunno noslers case capacity though. It might be less. A friend of mine shoots 175 smk's over 45.0 of varget in win/federal brass with great results. There is a very well known "node between the 44-45gr charge with Varget and 175's. I just cant seem to find it with these bullets. Maybe I'm just loading them out way to long, I just have a hard time believing that seating depth would have that big of an effect on them at 100yards.

 

[Rookie]

Re: Help me analyze this target! (178gr HPBT w/Varget)

I seat to 2.835 max with the 175s. 44.9gr of Varget. works good.

 

[vinsonr]

Re: Help me analyze this target! (178gr HPBT w/Varget)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: deadnbrkn84</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well I'm definitely not into the lands. I can load real long because I run alpha type II's and my rifle is modified to feed from them. I can load out to 2.950". These were all shot off a bipod with rear support. Shooting this way I could shoot those one hole groups with the 168's though. I'll try and load some to 2.860" and see what happens. I'm still unsure of the powder charge though.
The 44.0 sounds good I just think it's going to be really slow out of a 20" barrel. I need all the powder I can get. I dunno noslers case capacity though. It might be less. A friend of mine shoots 175 smk's over 45.0 of varget in win/federal brass with great results. There is a very well known "node between the 44-45gr charge with Varget and 175's. I just cant seem to find it with these bullets. Maybe I'm just loading them out way to long, I just have a hard time believing that seating depth would have that big of an effect on them at 100yards. </div></div>

So far I think the 178 BTHP's are more picky than the 178 Amax's I've been running. My OCW test on the left (#3-5) seemed like I was converging towards 45 grains, but then when I shot that load today (#6) it kind of went to hell. I ended up using the 35 other bthp cartridges for weak hand and standing supported practice out to 500. I used my 44 gr varget with 178 amax for 750 and 1000.

I get 2650 fps from 44 gr varget so I think I'm going to try that instead and play with seating depth on the HPBT's.

 

[deadnbrkn84]

Re: Help me analyze this target! (178gr HPBT w/Varget)

I agree. I think they are much more intolerant to jumping. I'm going to have to try to just seat them right off the lands and see what happens. I'm also going to try a batch seated short with a lower powder charge. If neither work I'm going to give up on these 178's and try the 175 smk's. I really wanted the 178's to work but at this point I've wasted a bunch of them and my time trying to get them to shoot and getting frustrated.

 

[JGorski]

Re: Help me analyze this target! (178gr HPBT w/Varget)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: deadnbrkn84</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I agree. I think they are much more intolerant to jumping. I'm going to have to try to just seat them right off the lands and see what happens. I'm also going to try a batch seated short with a lower powder charge. If neither work I'm going to give up on these 178's and try the 175 smk's. I really wanted the 178's to work but at this point I've wasted a bunch of them and my time trying to get them to shoot and getting frustrated. </div></div>
Id say give up on that crap varget and try 2000MR! I shoot the 178HPBTs also and get very good results with 47.5grs, Win brass,CCIBR primers, but will be testing 210Ms once the range opens in May, and will also be shooting some loads with the bullet just touching the lands and some just a bit off, right now my OAL is 2.850", the 178s are touching the lands at around 2.960" in my SPSS. Here's one loaded in Lapua brass.

 

[JGorski]

Re: Help me analyze this target! (178gr HPBT w/Varget)

Here's a group at 200yds with a dern flyer, grrrrr.

 

[deadnbrkn84]

Re: Help me analyze this target! (178gr HPBT w/Varget)

Well you guys wanted me to update this so I will. I'm done with the 178's. What I've learned is that they simply wont shoot if they have to jump more then .02". I for the life of me could not figure out why these bullet were shooting so poorly. I did ladder tests, tried different seating lengths and after wasting about 150 of these I was very, very frustrated. I mean those groups at 100 yards were huge. So after doing a ton more reading on many different sites I have come to the conclusion (along with many others that they simply wont jump.

The problem with a stock remington barrel is that the throat is so deep that they cannot be loaded long enough to be within .02" of the lands and still feed. I even run alpha mag II's and have my action notched. The closest I could get is like .09" from the lands and still have them fit in the mag.

So long story short I got some 175 smk's loaded them with 45.0 of varget loaded them .04" off the lands and went and shot them. 1 hole group. Consistently. I really wanted the 178's to work but bottom line is they just wont shoot in a stock remington.

 

[scott123456789]

Re: Help me analyze this target! (178gr HPBT w/Varget)

Did you read about the same issue with the 168gr Amax's?

 

[deadnbrkn84]

Re: Help me analyze this target! (178gr HPBT w/Varget)

No I haven't. I haven't seen or shot the 168 amax but (and i could be wrong here) I don't think a 168gr bullet would have this issue. Apparently it has something to do with the fact that the 178's have a very long body and a lot of contact area with the barrel (bearing surface I believe its called?)

 

[scott123456789]

Re: Help me analyze this target! (178gr HPBT w/Varget)

About to load up for my LTR may stick to the sierra.

 

[deadnbrkn84]

Re: Help me analyze this target! (178gr HPBT w/Varget)

Here's the target from today with the 175 smk's. 45.0 Varget. Nosler Brass. CCI BR-2. .040" off the lands.

 

[scott123456789]

Re: Help me analyze this target! (178gr HPBT w/Varget)

Guess that will do....

 

[RidgeRebel]

Re: Help me analyze this target! (178gr HPBT w/Varget)

Tried the 178s in my SPS Tac yesterday. Disappointed to say the least. I really wanted to make them work but, due to the looong throat and lack of mag length they won't work. Does anybody have any other suggestions to use these in a factory Remington, Ive got 2 more boxes of them. I started at 43.0 of varget ended at 44.00 with my best group at 44.00 but still around 2 MOA

Also at 44.00 the primers were starting to flatten out.

 

[deadnbrkn84]

Re: Help me analyze this target! (178gr HPBT w/Varget)

elk - What brass were you using out of curiosity? I went from 43-45.2 with these. I couldn't get them to shoot to be what I consider even remotely acceptable at any charge weight.

 

[RidgeRebel]

Re: Help me analyze this target! (178gr HPBT w/Varget)

I was using new Hornady Match brass, FGGM 210 primers.

 

[Pusher591]

Re: Help me analyze this target! (178gr HPBT w/Varget)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: deadnbrkn84</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Here's the target from today with the 175 smk's. 45.0 Varget. Nosler Brass. CCI BR-2. .040" off the lands.

</div></div>

Can't beat that with a stick! Stick with that and go shoot, more shooting will do you better then chasing the perfect load or bullet. I've recently learned this after spending lots of money chasing

 

[cropins]

Re: Help me analyze this target! (178gr HPBT w/Varget)

Hope I can get a group like that out of mine. I get to shoot it the first time this weekend.

 

[LawnMM]

Re: Help me analyze this target! (178gr HPBT w/Varget)

Do you have a chronograph? Or access to one?

Those don't lie, you know you have an accuracy node when the es/sd numbers drop low. That gives you good, unbiased, results on consistent velocity.

If it still doesn't group I suspect its the shooter. You seem to have a nice group with the 175s, I bet if you chrono'd that load under the same conditions you would have low numbers.

 

[JGorski]

Re: Help me analyze this target! (178gr HPBT w/Varget)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: elksniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Tried the 178s in my SPS Tac yesterday. Disappointed to say the least. I really wanted to make them work but, due to the looong throat and lack of mag length they won't work. Does anybody have any other suggestions to use these in a factory Remington, Ive got 2 more boxes of them. I started at 43.0 of varget ended at 44.00 with my best group at 44.00 but still around 2 MOA

Also at 44.00 the primers were starting to flatten out. </div></div>
Well for one, throw the Varget to the dogs and get some 2000MR, load it up with 47.5grs and if you want them to fit your magazine well seat them to 2.830" oal.
These pics have them seated to 2.850"

Here's a 300 yd target, 4 shots. These are from my SPSS.

This 3 shot group is from my Classic stocked 308, oal is 2.830"

The 178HPBTs will shoot off the lands.

 

[SWRichmond]

Re: Help me analyze this target! (178gr HPBT w/Varget)

FWIW I tried to get my stock Rem 700SA .308 26" to shoot Lapua Scenar 155's, for the same reasons you cited (long range performance) and it was a disaster. Same problem: long throat, couldn't get the bullets close enough to the lands, and no matter what else I did they refused to jump. The rifle shot 168 Sierra SMKs into 0.600" all day long.

The Scenars are VLD-design, and VLDs are known to usually not like jumping. Berger has a new line of "hybrid" bullets, with the idea being to get VLD-like ballistics while reducing sensitivity to jump, and I am going to try the 185 Hybrids in .308 Win. I am farting around with the 230 OTM Hybrids in the 300 Win Mag in another thread, though I haven't tried jumping them very far yet.

 

[NukeMMC]

Re: Help me analyze this target! (178gr HPBT w/Varget)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: deadnbrkn84</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Ok so let me start by giving you all a little background. I was shooting Nosler Custom Comp 168/Nosler Brass/45.0 Varget/CCI BR-2. The rifle is a
Remington AAC-SD .308 20" 1:10 Barrel. I was consistently shooting "bug hole" groups with the rifle (so the rifle and myself are capable). I decided that I wanted to ditch the 168's and shoot solely 175/8 grain bullets for better long distance performance and ability to fight wind.
So I picked up 400 Hornady 178 HPBT and decided to work up a load. I did an entire OCW test from 43-45.5. It definitely shot the best between the 44-45.5 grain area (which makes sense because it's common knowledge there is a node here with this weight grain bullet). I worked up some more loads (44.5, 44.7, 45, 45.2). I went out and shot these groups. I just cant make much sense out of them. So I wanted your input.

Let me know your thoughts on this. Thanks so much. </div></div>

OK, so I got some of the 178 HPBTs and will be testing them in my (former) 700 SPS-Varmint in 308. The thing is, I had the barrel shortened to 22" and set back about 3/16" to re-cut the chamber more concentric to the bore and had the throat done with a FGMM/M852 reamer. My 178 AMAX OAL is 2.825" to touch the lands, the 175 SMK is 2.850" at the lands and the 178HPBT is 2.850" at the lands. Setting the barrel back gotr rid of the Remington lawyer-leade and made one HELL of an accuracy improvement! Best accuracy improvement I could have for $250.
I currently load the 175s with 43.5gr of Varget and the chrono says 2647fps with a .6moa 10-shot group at 200yds. COAL was 2.820". The 178AMAXs go similar speed with the same charge and loaded .020" off the lands. FWIW, my rifle shoots better groups with 40.3gr of 3031 (2635fps and single-digit Sd)

 

[Creature]

Re: Help me analyze this target! (178gr HPBT w/Varget)

I use 44.5grs of Varget with a 178gr amax, 2.860 COAL and it's 2608fps out of a 20" bbl.

Try seating the bullet to this OAL and see how it goes. You could be closer to the lands than you think. Could be causing a pressure spike.

 

[Helter]

Re: Help me analyze this target! (178gr HPBT w/Varget)

Damn, I wish I had seen this thread before, I just ordered some of these.

 

[1lnbrdg]

Re: Help me analyze this target! (178gr HPBT w/Varget)

Best thing I've ever done with a stock Remington was have the barrel set back.

 

[Rob01]

Re: Help me analyze this target! (178gr HPBT w/Varget)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Helter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Damn, I wish I had seen this thread before, I just ordered some of these.</div></div>

Why? They are a great bullet. 44grns of Varget in a Hornady case does great in my rifle.

Before I got the bullets I had some 178 Superformance loads which didn't shoot well so I just pulled the bullet, dumped the Superformance powder, filled with 44grns of Varget and reseated the bullets. Nothing else.

Two 5 shot groups at 100

And one 5 shot at 300. Thinking the high one might have been some neck tension varriation from just pulling and reseating the bullets and doing nothing to the brass but it's still 1/2 MOA.

 

[Creature]

Re: Help me analyze this target! (178gr HPBT w/Varget)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Helter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Damn, I wish I had seen this thread before, I just ordered some of these. </div></div>

178gr Amax is the bullet that shoots the best out of my rifle. I've tried 155gr scenars, 175gr/168gr SMK, Nosler comp 168gr, and on, and on... Plus they're cheaper.

 

[turbo54]

Re: Help me analyze this target! (178gr HPBT w/Varget)

I just finished load workup with the 178hpbt. They are more fickle than 175smk.

I found 46.6gr Varget as max in Lapua brass.

Ended up at 46.2, 2.840" COAL, .050" off lands.

2760fps, 26" melonited CBI barrel, ~3/4" 5-shot group at 200 yards.

 

[Tx_Flyboy]

Re: Help me analyze this target! (178gr HPBT w/Varget)

deadnbrkn84,

If you are having a bout of buyer's remorse, PM me, i'll take those bullets off your hands.

I want to try those bullets but i have thousands of 175s/178AMAX.

 

[Helter]

Re: Help me analyze this target! (178gr HPBT w/Varget)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Helter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Damn, I wish I had seen this thread before, I just ordered some of these.</div></div>

Why? They are a great bullet. 44grns of Varget in a Hornady case does great in my rifle.

Before I got the bullets I had some 178 Superformance loads which didn't shoot well so I just pulled the bullet, dumped the Superformance powder, filled with 44grns of Varget and reseated the bullets. Nothing else.

Two 5 shot groups at 100

And one 5 shot at 300. Thinking the high one might have been some neck tension varriation from just pulling and reseating the bullets and doing nothing to the brass but it's still 1/2 MOA.

</div></div>

Well I'll certainly give them a chance. I don't think I'm going to go all crazy with seating depth though, if my targets start out looking like the OP's.