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Help me build a .30-06 load for this rifle. New to precision hand loading...

C

ChrisBCS

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Feb 8, 2014
312
0
#1
Hi guys. Not new to reloading, but I've never carefully built a precision hand load for long distance rifle. I typically hand load for my M1903, otherwise lots of pistol ammo.

The rifle is a .30-06 Remington 700 from 1984. It is bone stock, including the Bushnell Sportview scope that came with it as a package in the 80's. I will eventually replace the base, rings and optics and add a quality M1907 sling. Other than that, i'm not touching it.

The previous owner had the action glass bedded. The stock was still haphazardly making light contact here and there in the barrel channel, so I fixed that yesterday morning.

Yesterday evening, I took it out for my first range trip with it. I used extremely inexpensive Remington 150 gr core lokt cartridges, on sandbags at 100 yards. After a lot of work to get the turrets at a 100 yard vertical zero, I got to shoot one 5-shot group. I want to build a cartridge that will safely and precisely get this rifle 600+ yards.

Can y'all help? Thank you!!!

14542444936_46dd26e86f_z.jpg

14546109376_f236f0c544_z.jpg

14386157549_7e031c0398_z.jpg
 
#2
Look up ladder testing, or OCW (optimum charge weight) here on the hide. I normally do my ladder testing at 300 yards. Then with Shooter ballistic software, I can figure out my velocity and go from there.
 
#5
Btw... .8 moa isn't bad for a core lokt. Got alot of potential to make that thing a shooter. Only thing I would be concerned with is your barrel contour. May heat up too quick. But you can put time in between your shots and solve that I would think.
My personal view is that if you are trying to get out to 600, go with the 175 smk. Easiest bullet to make shoot IMO.
 
#6
Chris,

Your post is a confusing, so i'll assume that you want to stay with the 30-06 but want a load that will be reliable for 600yard plus?

Your rifle clearly has potential...any rifle that will shoot crappy ammo (corelokt) into a sub-moa group is something special...

The question then becomes "What bullet do you want to shoot?" There are many choices to choose from, and everything from 150s to 240gr bullets will go much farther than 600yards accurately.

What load do you normally shoot outta your '03? Let's start there...
 
#10
Tx_Flyboy said:
Chris,

Your post is a confusing, so i'll assume that you want to stay with the 30-06 but want a load that will be reliable for 600yard plus?
Click to expand...

Correct. I think this rifle, as it sits, shows a lot of potential as a shooter. I'd like to do my part and feed it an appropriate .30-06 load.

Your rifle clearly has potential...any rifle that will shoot crappy ammo (corelokt) into a sub-moa group is something special...
Click to expand...

Thanks! I was quite amazed. My M1903 hates the corelokt, but I shoot it occasionally because I am on a tight budget; it's the cheapest and I use it to get fire formed brass to neck resize and reload into. Plus this range trip was primarily to zero.

The question then becomes "What bullet do you want to shoot?" There are many choices to choose from, and everything from 150s to 240gr bullets will go much farther than 600yards accurately.

What load do you normally shoot outta your '03? Let's start there...
Click to expand...

My 100-200 yard range load for the M1903 is 155 AMAX on top of 46 gr IMR 4064 (note: powder shortage lead me to chose the IMR 4064 because it's routinely available locally, finding 4350 is very rare). Unsorted, fire formed Remington brass, Winchester large rifle primers.
 
#11
ChrisBCS said:
Thanks! I remember there being a thread here, that I thought was stickier, for how to weigh and find the barrel node.
Click to expand...

Yeah, it's a good system. FWIW, a published max load of IMR 4350 has worked well for me for the 150-180 grain bullets. Hodgdon Hybrid 100V worked well for the 180 grain bullet, did not try it with any other weight bullets.
 
#13
I happened to be at Cabela's today and picked up 178 gr AMAX. I really like the price on the AMAX. On my budget it allows me significantly more rounds than Sierras, etc. So, for IMR 4064, would you start with 175 gr load data or 180 gr data?
 
#14
ChrisBCS said:
I happened to be at Cabela's today and picked up 178 gr AMAX. I really like the price on the AMAX. On my budget it allows me significantly more rounds than Sierras, etc. So, for IMR 4064, would you start with 175 gr load data or 180 gr data?
Click to expand...

I went with 175 load data. As always, work your way up and look for pressure signs.
 
#15
Chris,

175gr SMK load data is interchangable w 178gr AMAX load data in most rifles.

I've never played with 4064 powder, so i don't have any insight for you expect perform an OCW test to find the accuracy node(s) in your rifles.

If you happen across some H-4350 or IMR-4350, the accuracy nodes i've found are as follows:

175SMK/178AMAX
56.0gr IMR-4350 or 57.5gr H-4350
Any Brass
3.34" OAL.
WInchester / Tula LRP

The 57.5gr load chronoed 2,950 ft/s from my 26" 1-10 twist savage model 110...and i put 4 bullets into one hole w the 5th shot as a flier.
 
#17
Alright, thanks everyone so far. I have some cases to load with 4064 and AMAX 178 gr See if this sounds right:

Using the 175 gr load data.
Min charge: 46.5 gr
Max charge: 49.5 gr

1% graduations in charge weight:

Graduations:
1-3: 47.3 gr
4-6: 47.7 gr
7-9: 48.2 gr
10-12: 48.7 gr
13-15: 49.2 gr
16-18: 49.7 gr (if no pressure signs: ejector impressions, flattened primers, powder burn around primer).

I have to admit, I'm very nervous about going over the max, which according to Hodgdon corresponds to 58,000 psi.

So, help me make sure I understand this. I have 5 sets of charges. That means five targets for the test itself.

"Allow the barrel to cool, then fire a shot from the second graduation at target number 2. Wait for cooling of the barrel, then fire a shot from the third graduation at target number 3. Continue this "round robin" sequence until you have been through all of the targets three times. At this point you will have a three shot group on each of the targets."

So in the end, each target should have a three shot group consisting of ONLY rounds fired from the same charge intervals. Correct?

Does anyone have photos of a correctly performed OCW string to help me visualize the triangulation?
 
Last edited:
#19
So... now that I have confirmed the hard way that cartridges with an OAL that fits in my magazine will jam the bullet into the lands. How far off the lands should I be for OCW test?
 
#20
Hey buddy, I'm going through the exact thing with my Tikka 30-06.
I've seated my bullet 0.002" off the lands as the literature I could find said this was a good starting point. My COAL is 3.320 +/- 0.002 it works best in my barrel, if my COAL stretches to 3.330/3.340 i have problems with closing the bolt.
I measured it but expanding the neck of an empty case, fitted a bullet in it so it was tight enough with a small amount of pressure it would push into the case, then coloured the bullet with sharpie, slid it into the chamber slowly closed the bolt and then carefully extracted, measured the COAL and the location of where the lands rubbed off the sharpie, repeated 3 times to give me my average. I checked mag feed as well and 3.32ish is my magic number 0.002 off the land for my chamber.
Hope that helps.
I'm starting with some 150gr, 168gr and 180gr in nosler, hornady and speer as that was all I could get hold of at the moment
In Hobart we can't get any other powder other than ADI so i'm using the IMR4350 equivalent. I'm testing the five batches I have this weekend and will report back what I've found.

Thats good to see your rifle likes the rem corelokts mine hates them with a passion I went from 1moa @ 115m with some federal and hornady ammo, to a dinner plate grouping with the remingtons.
The plus side is the federal and hornady are $10-20/box cheaper so I'm down with that.
 
Last edited:
#21
ChrisBCS said:
Alright, thanks everyone so far. I have some cases to load with 4064 and AMAX 178 gr See if this sounds right:

Using the 175 gr load data.
Min charge: 46.5 gr
Max charge: 49.5 gr

1% graduations in charge weight:

Graduations:
1-3: 47.3 gr
4-6: 47.7 gr
7-9: 48.2 gr
10-12: 49.2 gr
13-15: 49.7 gr (if no pressure signs: ejector impressions, flattened primers, powder burn around primer).

I have to admit, I'm very nervous about going over the max, which according to Hodgdon corresponds to 58,000 psi.

So, help me make sure I understand this. I have 5 sets of charges. That means five targets for the test itself.

"Allow the barrel to cool, then fire a shot from the second graduation at target number 2. Wait for cooling of the barrel, then fire a shot from the third graduation at target number 3. Continue this "round robin" sequence until you have been through all of the targets three times. At this point you will have a three shot group on each of the targets."

So in the end, each target should have a three shot group consisting of ONLY rounds fired from the same charge intervals. Correct?

Does anyone have photos of a correctly performed OCW string to help me visualize the triangulation?
Click to expand...

Sounds good to me.

I will add for consideration:
- Literally note each shot placement on paper as you shoot (IF you are able to see holes based at your yardage)
- Note ANY flyers, bad sots etc so you can mark later as you MAY find yourself negating a shot.
- I create a minimum of four rounds per load just in case I have a bad shot
- I shoot string in one horizontal row as shown below

Take a look at 91.8 & 92.3.
Leave out #4 and focus in on 1, 2 & 3.
Find Group Center for each of these two
Notice how Group Center for 91.8 is left of target and slightly high/horizontal of 92.3?
Notice how Group Center for 92.3 is right of target and slightly low/horizontal of 91.8?
I split the difference and rounded up to 92.1 Grains and she shoots POA consistently.

Hope this helps some
LD%20300%20SMK%20HIgh%20Node%20051814.jpg


This is one result from above OCW.
Granted it is ONLY three shots at 100 yards
My point is three shots below were FIRST (cold bore), SECOND (follow up cold bore) and THIRD (last of day) shots taken this day.
* I was out this day working on my .308 LD
Note: What I have found to be BEYOND EPIC is tracking my FIRST, SECOND and LAST shots each day I go out. They tell me everything I need to know about my rig on this given day overall.

338 Cold Bore plus two followup.jpg


Hope this helps some..
 
Last edited:
#23
ChrisBCS

Check your Load weights.

Graduations:
1-3: 47.3 gr
4-6: 47.7 gr
7-9: 48.2 gr
????????????? << No 48.7 ?????
10-12: 49.2 gr
13-15: 49.7 gr

Are these correct? Where is your 48.7???

As for going over max - its a lawyer thing.

Just be careful and watch for everything.
 
#24
This load of RL19 worked well in my 1903A1

imagejpeg_2.jpg

something to play with if you are trying various powders or forced to use whats on the shelf.
 
#25
Thanks everyone!!! Tristian, thank you. Big time, great post with expectations and methods. Yes, my notebook has a graduation at 48.7 gr. Forgot it in my post. Thank you for catching that. I loaded from my notebook and not the post.
 
#27
+1 on ~56.0gr imr4350 and 57.5gr h4350. Pics below are two 4rnd groups of imr4350 with 178amax and virgin lapua brass.


umema9y5.jpg
e2ysevu8.jpg


Rifle is a Tikka t3 lite with older Nikon 3-9x prostaff. Also shoots 150grs with H4895 very well.
 
#28
ChrisBCS said:
So... now that I have confirmed the hard way that cartridges with an OAL that fits in my magazine will jam the bullet into the lands. How far off the lands should I be for OCW test?
Click to expand...

Depending on how good or not good you are on determining your LAND's Depth you may want to stay at least .015 or so. At least that is what I would do to be safe.

I prefer magazine fed so I perform LD at longest, safest OAL I can get and work from there. Once I find what I believe is a solid NODE I then, if needed, decrease my OAL to various degrees and watch how groups increase or decrease.
 
#29
Buy posterboard and colored stick dots. Break the posterboard up into 5 or six verticle columns with dots spread vertice in each row. Shoot each loads in specific row. This makes a large "load chart" to compare your differant loads at differant configs
 
#30
Well... today was a frustrating disaster.

First of all. My primary range was closed (they are trying to save money limiting hours over the summer). There is another 100 yard range in the Brazos valley called Arrowhead Shooting range. If you're here, ever move here, or visit here. DO NOT BOTHER. UGH. Everything was falling apart. Garbage everywhere. The blind over the benches had sagged so low that I could see it blurring the top of my scope. I was nervous at first about rounds even clearing it! Then there was almost no backstop left to hang anything on! Guy already had my 10 dollars, so I figured, ok, I'll shoot.

First two cold bore shots at the zero:

14611030311_7b251bc4b1_z.jpg


So, like an IDIOT, I tried to adjust the turret without any sighters left to shoot. I screwed up my adjustment. I wasted the first four shots of the first string (I didn't have brass to make extras for each graduation. So at that point I'm mad at the range, mad at my own stupidity, but I said, what the hell. So I went for it with the remaining shots. I know the results are useless, but any trigger time is good. Here is the result:

14427659489_023151373d_c.jpg


Reloading these same charges and headed to my NORMAL non-dilapidated range which I found it will be open tomorrow, and I'll take the time to actually mark every shot by number.
 
#32
For OCW, I start with the book length for the bullet.

Once I find the powder charge that works, I run a second round of tests with different bullet seating depths.
 
#33
Take following with a grain of salt: Based on what I have read between this thread and your other regarding 30-06 @ 1000 yards I would lean towards following steps and thoughts:

* Get over any mistakes you made and variables that got in your way - Learn from them, move on and get back to business!
* Did you see any pressure signs at all???
* Reload all same again and create at least four of each as you just may find yourself needing them
* In some situations if you have access to 300 plus yards day of LD and still have the fourth round of each you could always run a ladder test as well for more data. Think about it. Isn't that what you are doing LD for, DATA????
* Your first two shots of day were on point - I did not see any reason to spin turrets
* Make sure you do not spin turrets once you take your first LD shot
* Do not assume 48.2 as it may be other (I think higher) reason for running same LD again
* Do NOT expect to hit 3/4" donuts during LD as this is NOT goal during LD
* Focus on best LD data you can obtain

??? Isn't your goal to ring steel consistently at 1000???

Get to work, get back out there and post your results for us to see.

Positive Mindset yields Positive Results!

Be safe
Have fun
Learn something

Just my two cents...
 
#34
You might want to look at better glass with more power also. That also helps shrink groups. You can't shoot small groups if you can't see the target . I believe your on the right track but I know a quality scope and more power WILL help you. Good Luck on your search.
 
#35
No grain of salt needed! I posted all this to learn open-mindedly, and to not be defensive. I am humbly and extremely grateful for the pointers. :D

Spinning the turrets was a dumb rookie scope-user move. Trust me: lesson learned there. ("oh look, I'm x down and x over @ 100 yards, I can fix that!")

Zero pressure signs. I was nervous because I've never loaded "hotter" before, and I inspected every single piece of brass as it was extracted and ejected. Bolt opened normally, smoothly and easily, no primer flattening or extrusion; cartridge rim, web and head show no signs of stress, impressions, bending or deformation.

I placed the empty cases back into the box in the charge graduation order so I can inspect again after work.
 
#36
ChrisBCS said:
No grain of salt needed! I posted all this to learn open-mindedly, and to not be defensive. I am humbly and extremely grateful for the pointers. :D

Spinning the turrets was a dumb rookie scope-user move. Trust me: lesson learned there. ("oh look, I'm x down and x over @ 100 yards, I can fix that!")

Zero pressure signs. I was nervous because I've never loaded "hotter" before, and I inspected every single piece of brass as it was extracted and ejected. Bolt opened normally, smoothly and easily, no primer flattening or extrusion; cartridge rim, web and head show no signs of stress, impressions, bending or deformation.

I placed the empty cases back into the box in the charge graduation order so I can inspect again after work.
Click to expand...

A few more cents...

IF, If you really want to start off with correct/closer POA you can 'try' following if you find it to be helpful. Load five or so plus of lowest LD powder charge and zero scope with that. Let barrel cool then, proceed with LD. In your case, you can start with higher powder charge being your highest powder charge did NOT display any signs of pressure.

I use Sharpie markers for various tasks, such as,
- write down powder type, charge on LD cases
IE: R92.1.1, R92.1.2, R92.13, R92.1,4 (for ME: R means RETUMBO powder, 92.1 for charge, 1, 2, 3, 4 means number assigned for each load of that charge - also shoot them in numbered order.
* Did above because one time I spilled cartridge case and some of the loads fell out and I did not know which was which. Learned from it and started above.

Unfortunately, I can be very anal and being my goal is to obtain DATA during LD I like to be able to reference back.

In event I find pressure I will write on case "P" or "Pressure" so when I return to lab I can then measure case dimensions to obtain more data. I am FAR from expert and try my best to learn from actual data and experience. I found early on in my reloading I had pressure signs due to my incorrect reloading process. By anally measuring, along with other techniques, I caught it with my Savage 338 LM and when I corrected MY reloading process I found NO pressure signs with that particular Powder Charge that previously displayed pressure signs. Pressure was due to my reloading...

I also, keep a log during LD of each shot.
IE:
I have acronyms for Incorrect Follow Through (ICF) , Rushed Shot (RS), Poor Trigger Pull (PTP), Improper Should Placement (ISP), etc.
For any shot that falls under above categories I will NOTE so when I come back to lab I can negate any shots from LD.
If you look back at my pic dated 5/17/14 I know which shots fell under which acronym based off my notes during LD that day, not shown.
Not sure if above makes sense.

I am human.
 
#38
Thank you, again, Tristian.

I have to be honest with myself and everyone. There is a 1000 yard range locally, with steel every 250 yards. It does, however, require qualifying. Basically, it's 50-250 for the unwashed masses such as myself, but then to move on, you have to put 3 in a row on a steel torso at 500 yards. Until you qualify, there is nowhere here to shoot past 250 yds. So I'm certainly intimidated by the proposition of my first run past 250, and want to be prepared.
 
#40
I only load for .308 and .223 in bolt action right now. I went the ladder test route instead of OCW. I am just dropping my anecdotal evidence. I have my ladder test still in the box. I loaded 175 SMK with H4895 from 42g up to 45g in .2g increments. I loaded to just over a hair of book OAL. I loaded a box of 50 at 42g just for sighting in and plinking fun before I ran the ladder test. The thing is. the 42g plinkers shot so well I might never use my ladder test. I know they are not the fastest .308 load, but at my elevation here at 6200ft has them supersonic past 1100yds. So i might just pull down the ladder test and use 42g of H4895 as my go to load. All, I am getting at is find the ACCURATE load for your gun and be happy with it. if accuracy comes in at a "mild" load then use it, your brass will last longer. From the post above where you had your sighters on top of eachother before you messed with your scope, I would just use those. That looked like a great load to me, even thought they were not in your "test". Save the headache for later and use that load. Some people on here try to over think stuff. I guess if you are shooting past 1500yds or so, or in Benchrest mode then by all means. just my .2 cents.

Edit: Just saw your last OCW. Since you just put in the work, First and last look great. I would use the first and save brass life. but the last looks very promising. Good work!!
 
Last edited:
#43
Thanks Para.

Am I correct in interpreting 48.7 as a scatter node?

However, if 48.7 is the EXACT scatter node, which it might not be, that means the stable nodes would be right at 48.0 and 49.4 gr.
 
Last edited:
#44
I have another reason to believe that 48.7 is, or is close to, a scatter node. 47.3, 3% down from 48.7, despite being tightly grouped, does not follow the POI movement trend (low to high), and my sighter (2nd after cold bore) was also 47.3 gr, but was very far off and also didn't contribute. I've marked it's position relative to POA with the rest of the group:

14434446368_7183155b3b_b.jpg


And look at the target again from yesterday. Huge standard deviation from POA with the two shots at 47.3 gr.

And the 3 shot group at 49.2 had great, consistent POI yesterday. The 1.5% off 48.7 would be right between it and 49.7, at 49.5 gr.

14427659489_023151373d_c.jpg
 
Last edited:
#45
I fixed my other post.im still learning this stuff myself. Hornady book 8th edition shows 178s and 180s the same.
I shoot 178s with hybride 100v in my .06 and found best accuracy at the upper end.
ahepejyg.jpg

Flyers my falt
 
#46
Is .5 kind of a big spread for an OCW?

Purpose of OCW not being smallest groups but to find a node where you have play in powder thrown, plus or minus, so that point of impact really doesnt change?

At .5 Im wondering if you may be missing the point where you get two groups showing same point of impact. .2 will tighten up your data so you can see where powder charges give similar impact locations.
 
Last edited:
#47
Hi pmclaine,

The charge graduations were 1% step increases, yes.

Here was my understanding of what I was doing, and if I'm totally wrong, please slap me upside the head..

Nodes of scatter vs. nodes of consistent POI are stepped by 1.5% charge graduations. I had no idea where I was on the scale with that rifle + powder + bullet combo. At 1% graduations, I would either find a scatter node or accurate node (or get close), but not both, and I would find one or more with fewer charges than if I went all the way up the scale at finer graduations. I wanted to get a big picture of where I should be refining, working from coarse to fine. Now I believe I have an idea what ballpark I'm playing in, and I can begin to refine at 0.2 grain graduations to find that optimal charge in the accuracy where I can have play plus or minus.

So your post, as I understand OCW is absolutely correct, I'm just taking a coarse to fine, long route, means of getting there, trying to learn as much as possible on the ride.
 
#48
ChrisBCS said:
Hi pmclaine,

The charge graduations were 1% step increases, yes.

Here was my understanding of what I was doing, and if I'm totally wrong, please slap me upside the head..

Nodes of scatter vs. nodes of consistent POI are stepped by 1.5% charge graduations. I had no idea where I was on the scale with that rifle + powder + bullet combo. At 1% graduations, I would either find a scatter node or accurate node (or get close), but not both, and I would find one or more with fewer charges than if I went all the way up the scale at finer graduations. I wanted to get a big picture of where I should be refining, working from coarse to fine. Now I believe I have an idea what ballpark I'm playing in, and I can begin to refine at 0.2 grain graduations to find that optimal charge in the accuracy where I can have play plus or minus.

So your post, as I understand OCW is absolutely correct, I'm just taking a coarse to fine, long route, means of getting there, trying to learn as much as possible on the ride.
Click to expand...

Yep, my error.

Im referencing my understanding of OCW based on loading for .223. I was using 1% for charges in the 20-25 grain range hence .2 increments. So 30-06 rounds at .5 makes sense, my bad.
 
#50
Bender said:
I only load for .308 and .223 in bolt action right now. I went the ladder test route instead of OCW. I am just dropping my anecdotal evidence. I have my ladder test still in the box. I loaded 175 SMK with H4895 from 42g up to 45g in .2g increments. I loaded to just over a hair of book OAL. I loaded a box of 50 at 42g just for sighting in and plinking fun before I ran the ladder test. The thing is. the 42g plinkers shot so well I might never use my ladder test. I know they are not the fastest .308 load, but at my elevation here at 6200ft has them supersonic past 1100yds. So i might just pull down the ladder test and use 42g of H4895 as my go to load. All, I am getting at is find the ACCURATE load for your gun and be happy with it. if accuracy comes in at a "mild" load then use it, your brass will last longer. From the post above where you had your sighters on top of eachother before you messed with your scope, I would just use those. That looked like a great load to me, even thought they were not in your "test". Save the headache for later and use that load. Some people on here try to over think stuff. I guess if you are shooting past 1500yds or so, or in Benchrest mode then by all means. just my .2 cents.

Edit: Just saw your last OCW. Since you just put in the work, First and last look great. I would use the first and save brass life. but the last looks very promising. Good work!!
Click to expand...
Bender, where did you get your load info for H4895?? I load H4895 and that seems kinda Hot on your loads 44-45grs.
 
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