Help me build a .30-06 load for this rifle. New to precision hand loading...

[Tristian19]

ChrisBCS,

PM Sent...

Question:
Regarding last LD shots - Were paper targets side by side OR on top of one another while shooting? I see pic displays side-by-side but I am not sure if this is after you pulled targets down or not.

Also, you 'may' want to consider numbering each shot taken/placement. For example, when looking at 48.7 load which was SHOT #1, #2 & #3? On a separate piece of paper I Sharpie each after each shot taken and number accordingly. Once target is pulled I then transpose as you see on my target POST #21.

Just another two cents...

 

[gordonm1]

A better rest and larger scope might help here also. There's a bit of shooter variance showing on the targets making stuff harder to see but I see the scatter at 48.7 grains and good group at the high end. I wish I could check my load data quickly on how hot the top end load is.

 

[Tristian19]

I do not load for 30-06 so have no real world data. When checking Quikload with your compents and default settings I see 51.3 to be max.

Always with a grain...

 

[ChrisBCS]

ChrisBCS,

PM Sent...

Question:
Regarding last LD shots - Were paper targets side by side OR on top of one another while shooting? I see pic displays side-by-side but I am not sure if this is after you pulled targets down or not.

They were on the target frame side by side as in the photo, perfectly level.

Also, you 'may' want to consider numbering each shot taken/placement. For example, when looking at 48.7 load which was SHOT #1, #2 & #3? On a separate piece of paper I Sharpie each after each shot taken and number accordingly. Once target is pulled I then transpose as you see on my target POST #21.

Just another two cents...

Yup, I will definitely do that.

 

[ChrisBCS]

I do not load for 30-06 so have no real world data. When checking Quikload with your compents and default settings I see 51.3 to be max.

Always with a grain...

for IMR 4064 and 175/178 gr?? That's... wow. Interesting that the powder manufacturer's max is nearly a grain below that. What PSI/fps is that?

 

[Tristian19]

for IMR 4064 and 175/178 gr?? That's... wow. Interesting that the powder manufacturer's max is nearly a grain below that. What PSI/fps is that?

Yes, 4064 and AMax 178's - I use same but in .308 Win not 30-06.

Few things in no particular order
- Manufacturer Max loads are not MAX Loads they are Lawyer Max Loads (safety for everyone's BUTT)
- QL is a program that I use as just one of many sources of 'reference'. Have found QL to be very close in some cases and far off in others when comparing my real world data.

PM Sent...

 

[ChrisBCS]

Thanks Tristian.

Trudging forward (keep in mind, I'm thinking aloud)... I'm looking at 4 three shot groups. Two replicates of groups. Thus, where I have the most data.

From yesterday, 49.2 and 49.7 gr
And from today 49.2 and 49.7 gr.

Yesterday, all 3 shots at 49.2 and the 3 at 49.7 gr had almost identical POI
Today, 49.2 is a little wonky, but again good stuff from 49.7 gr.

I think next test will be 49.2 gr, 49.5 gr and 49.7 gr. If that works well, interestingly, 49.5 gr minus 1.5%, where the scatter node should be, puts it at 48.8 gr. Remember in the target from today the scatter was greatest at 48.7 gr.

 

[Tristian19]

ChrisBCS,

Probably knit picking when I say, I would keep same differences between loads.

I see 49.2, 49.5 & 49.7

 

[ChrisBCS]

Not sure I follow?

 

[ChrisBCS]

You're saying I should do those 3 charges?

 

[slm9s]

You might want to look at better glass with more power also. That also helps shrink groups. You can't shoot small groups if you can't see the target . I believe your on the right track but I know a quality scope and more power WILL help you. Good Luck on your search.

+1. I keep an old Weaver T36 around just for that purpose. If you're doing load development, being able to "aim small" will make your time/effort/$$$ give you better data.

 

[Tx_Flyboy]

Chris,

Good to see you diving in with both feet. Its a little difficult to make a "call" at this point, but i have the following pointers:

1. If you can get a higher magnification scope, please use that instead...aim small, miss small. If you must stick with your current scope, change out targets. Use bigger targets with a large dot in the middle that will allow you to get a consistent point of aim. In using larger targets, place them side by side if target frame allows it and shoot from left to right...you will see the POI info just as well, and you wont get bullets in the vicinity of other charge weights

2. Change from 3-shot groups to 5-shot groups...if you throw a shot with a three shot group, you've ruined the charge weight. With a 5-shot group, you have 4 more tries to settle down and pay attention to fundamentals.

3. I think you already mentioned it, but make sure you are letting your barrel cool between shots...i usually allow for about 2 minutes between shots...that pencil barrel heats up very quickly (but also cools down quickly).

4. Did not see it anywhere else, but make sure that your bullets are not in the lands of the rifle...i dont like being in the lands as this increases pressures very quickly and limits velocity you can extract outta the rifle at the accuracy nodes. I would use a 35-thousands jump for now and play with varying lengths later. If you dont have a way to measure the lands in your rifle, use the book bullet length or 3.25" COAL which ever works out better.

That said, I see promise at the higher nodes...I would re-shoot the entire thing, but this time, i would also load up to 1gr above the book max, checking for pressure signs as you approach the book max...this may or may not be the max load in your rifle.

 

[Pinecone]

I use 0.7 - 0.85% charge steps, to make sure I find the nodes I want.

 

[ChrisBCS]

1. If you can get a higher magnification scope, please use that instead...aim small, miss small. If you must stick with your current scope, change out targets. Use bigger targets with a large dot in the middle that will allow you to get a consistent point of aim. In using larger targets, place them side by side if target frame allows it and shoot from left to right...you will see the POI info just as well, and you wont get bullets in the vicinity of other charge weights

No new scope without a few months of saving outside the normal shooting budget. It is a little frustrating, I can shoot MOA or better on an issue grade M1903. But, it is definitely the shooter, and he is not impressed with himself. I can in fact see my POI at 9x in the bushnell. The location of my cheek-stock weld is consistent shot to shot. What size targets would you use?

2. Change from 3-shot groups to 5-shot groups...if you throw a shot with a three shot group, you've ruined the charge weight. With a 5-shot group, you have 4 more tries to settle down and pay attention to fundamentals.

That's easy enough.

3. I think you already mentioned it, but make sure you are letting your barrel cool between shots...i usually allow for about 2 minutes between shots...that pencil barrel heats up very quickly (but also cools down quickly).

Yup, 2 minutes on the phone timer. Every shot. Barrel is not hot to touch, just warm.

4. Did not see it anywhere else, but make sure that your bullets are not in the lands of the rifle...i dont like being in the lands as this increases pressures very quickly and limits velocity you can extract outta the rifle at the accuracy nodes. I would use a 35-thousands jump for now and play with varying lengths later. If you dont have a way to measure the lands in your rifle, use the book bullet length or 3.25" COAL which ever works out better.

They were pretty far off/back from the lands actually, 0.05". I have a very repeatable COAL to the lands on this bullet, tested using multiple dummies.

That said, I see promise at the higher nodes...I would re-shoot the entire thing, but this time, i would also load up to 1gr above the book max, checking for pressure signs as you approach the book max...this may or may not be the max load in your rifle.

By book max you mean powder maker's max? For what it's worth, the bolt lift/open is as easy at 49.7 gr as it is 47.3 gr.

If it turns out that somewhere between 49.2-49.7 gr turns out to be optimum, how much life am I going to be taking off that pencil barrel?

 

[Bender]

Bender, where did you get your load info for H4895?? I load H4895 and that seems kinda Hot on your loads 44-45grs.

You are correct. I should have clarified. I have one test in H4895 to 44g and another in Varget to 45g. Thanks for the heads up.

 

[Tristian19]

You're saying I should do those 3 charges?

Unless I misread your previous post I thought YOU said you were going to run those three charges.

What I was getting at was those three charges did not have equal powder distance between them.

It really all depends on situation BUT, personally, I like to add one charge on each end as I have found more data with this. For example, If higher added charge continues with SAME POI then NODE probably continues or ends at that added charge. On other hand, IF higher charge POI shifts elsewhere then I start to think node has ended.

Not sure if above makes sense.

 

[ChrisBCS]

Yes, it makes sense, I follow you now!

 

[ChrisBCS]

 

[ChrisBCS]

I slinged up and did a six shot group at 200, prone, at the end, just for S and G. I completely guessed with 4" on the elevation turret based on Ballistic software trajectory. 3 of 49.5 gr, 3 of 49.7 gr. I was just having fun with the last 6, so I didn't mark them. Both Xs were 49.5 gr.

 

[para72]

So 49.7 cause of the vertical stringing closest to poa or poi? Sorry, trying to understand

 

[ChrisBCS]

So 49.7 cause of the vertical stringing closest to poa or poi? Sorry, trying to understand

para, Ignore the 4th shot on 49.7. Then look at the average POI (i.e., triangulate the center of the 5 shots) of 49.2 and 49.5. Then look at the average POI at 49.9. It's up and to the right. Ignore group size here, it's POI consistency.

 

[para72]

Ok, I see 49.9 is better. So you look for a poi vertical string closest to poa ?

 

[ChrisBCS]

49.2:

49.5:

49.7:

49.9:

 

[Tristian19]

ChrisBCS,

1. During LD, What are you using for FRONT and REAR support?
2. Does your powder scale measure to hundredths?

As others mentioned above, I as well believe its time to mount a higher magnification scope.

Have you decided what your next move is?

sent via Tapatalk

 

[ChrisBCS]

ChrisBCS,

1. During LD, What are you using for FRONT and REAR support?

Bench with bag on stock forend. Rear bag under the but stock adjusted by non trigger hand for NPA. POA is much less stable and consistent/repeatable than when I am slinged up. I am much more comfortable shooting rifle from traditional marksmanship positions. Prone with a sling and all that moves in the sight is my respiratory cycle and pulse. I have admit I must not be competent with bags, as I find much more slop as I try to carefully set NPA before breaking the shot.

2. Does your powder scale measure to hundredths?

No. It's a Lee Safety Scale. I make precision measurements for a living, and use a $25,000 microbalance daily. I have verified the accuracy and precision of the beam scale; it's actually fairly alarming for such an inexpensive piece of equipment. But, it is obviously a 10th of a grain balance.

As others mentioned above, I as well believe its time to mount a higher magnification scope. Have you decided what your next move is?

My thought is, for now, pick a load (still thinking and grumbling), and get more trigger time with THIS rifle while slinged up, which I know is a better, consistent, more stable shooting platform for me than the bags. I don't want a bipod. I can't afford a higher mag scope for a while. If I invest in a new scope, it's not going to be half assed. I'm going to wait until I can get what I want. I'd also prefer not to dump money into a lead sled I will blue moon use either.

Also, I, uh realized I never cleaned the tube or chamber before this outing. I cleaned it this evening, this was the result with just crappy old Hoppe's 9:

 

[Tristian19]

I personally like to perform LD with a fouled/seasoned barrel. Reason is this is how I will shoot so I want to LD under same conditions. Just my preference. Unless I shoot in rain or other reason to clean I run my barrels until I see sign it needs cleaning or 500 rounds, whichever comes first.

I keep explicit details in log books on my rigs along with track Cold Bore, Follow up Cold Bore and LAST shot each range visit (as long as I can). This itself will display beginning signs for me. Just what I do.

 

[Bender]

Did your groups open up? If not leave it dirty. There is a guy on the board here that has like 12k on his .308 without cleaning out copper. Just a bore snake. The copper micro fills imperfections in the barrel. You just removed all of those. Your next session your gun might have a different poi.

 

[ChrisBCS]

Thanks everyone.

Annealed necks, shiny bullets, 49.4 IMR, 0.01" back from the lands, ready to play:

 

[Tristian19]

Thanks everyone.

Annealed necks, shiny bullets, 49.4 IMR, 0.01" back from the lands, ready to play:

If those reloads shoot half as good as they look i would say you hit a home run.

Look forward to results.

 

[ChrisBCS]

Well, here you go y'all:

I wasted half the ammo dinking around with the sling/prone, but I did shoot two 5-shot groups of 49.4 gr in the same configuration as the rest of this thread (bench/bags).

This rifle has no tolerance for shooter error. See, and I have a lot of shooter error to work out still. Anyway:

A disappointing performance on my part, but I managed to call 3 of the 4 group breakers has having poor POI from the shouldering and recoil. My follow through is improving a lot compared to where it was a month ago. Today was the first day I didn't need a spotting scope.

Both of the 3 shot groups has an identical POI. Elevation wise, they also have the same POI as the 49.5 gr (I adjusted the windage turret today to center the groups).

I have a lot of respect for bughole shooters.

 

[ChrisBCS]

Here is the 49.5 gr target for reference.

 

[ChrisBCS]

It's also worth a mention that I've been doing free recoil vs hard hold on all these targets. May change it up next time.

 

[Tristian19]

ChrisBCS,

Looks good. I believe groups will shrink when you swap scope for a good 15x plus piece of glass. If I recall correctly you are running a 3x9 correct? If precision is what you are aiming for 15x Quality is better than 24x non quality scope. Of course higher than 15x quality magnification is even better. JMO...

Consider getting a log book and maybe even a simple zip up case for it. Log book for keeping track of, but not limited too
- shots taken per day
- total shots taken
- when you clean
- when you make any adjustments to any hardware on rig
- what your shooting day was for, groups, LD, technique, whatever...
- data becomes priceless when your range day starts off with you asking yourself, Huh? Why is that happening...
- Check your log book as answer just maybe inside...

Brain is fried from a long day of dealing with people who do not know how to do their job telling me issue is on my end - so I hope above makes sense.

Just a few more 02...