Help me choose my 5.56 SBR Upper - DD or Geissele

[Glassaholic]

I'm in a conundrum - through a series of fortunate events, I've been able to get ahold of two really nice short barrel uppers - a Daniel Defense Mk18 upper with 10.3 barrel and FDE (well DD's version of it) RIS II quad picatinny handguard as well as a Geissele Super Duty 11.5" all black with MLOK handguard.

Some things to be aware of, will mostly be shot suppressed and will be outfitted with NV gear - Steiner OTAL-C and Luna ELIR-3.

I am leaning toward the DD Mk18 but I am not a huge fan of quad rail handguards though it does make it convenient for mounting accessories.

For those with experience give me your pros and cons between the two. I don't think I can go wrong with either but thoughts would be appreciated as I may not be thinking of something fairly obvious to others....

 

[Kadams1563]

Geissele

Did they both come with their respective BCG’s?

 

[Glassaholic]

Geissele

Care to elaborate?

Did they both come with their respective BCG’s?

Geissele came complete, DD came stripped so no BCG or CH from factory on the DD, but I had an extra BCG and CH sitting around...

 

[padom]

I have a 10.3" DD upper and that barrel is an absolute tack driver with 55 VMAX. Stupid accurate.... I have the DD MFR handguard on mine, love it. One of my favorite SBR handguards... I'm not a Quad rail fan.

 

[Kadams1563]

Care to elaborate?

Geissele came complete, DD came stripped so no BCG or CH from factory on the DD, but I had an extra BCG and CH sitting around...

No real reason except I like the 11.5. Mine shoots pretty dang soft suppressed and none suppressed BUT with e brake onneither of them get ready for fireballs lol.

 

[ut755ln]

I'm in a conundrum - through a series of fortunate events, I've been able to get ahold of two really nice short barrel uppers - a Daniel Defense Mk18 upper with 10.3 barrel and FDE (well DD's version of it) RIS II quad picatinny handguard as well as a Geissele Super Duty 11.5" all black with MLOK handguard.

Some things to be aware of, will mostly be shot suppressed and will be outfitted with NV gear - Steiner OTAL-C and Luna ELIR-3.

I am leaning toward the DD Mk18 but I am not a huge fan of quad rail handguards though it does make it convenient for mounting accessories.

For those with experience give me your pros and cons between the two. I don't think I can go wrong with either but thoughts would be appreciated as I may not be thinking of something fairly obvious to others....

Edit: I should mention both are brand new and have never been fired, not that it would make much of a difference.

View attachment 7944654

I like the DD with the quad rails. Of all my ARs the one I have shot the most is the MK 18 that I bought sometime around 2012. More than 30k rounds through it and I am on a second barrel and never had a malfunction. It is a little bit harsher in terms of recoil but not bad.

 

[Vivacious Stallion]

From my experience with the 2, they are both plenty accurate enough with m193. My Super Duty 10.3 is significantly better gassed than the 10.3 DD while being less heavy. The newer Geisseles fixed the bendy rail issue awhile back by switching to 7075 aluminum for the rail if I remember.

Both are solid options I don't much care for the quadrail unless you're planning to do extremely mean things to it.

 

[RUTGERS95]

neither

DD is anti 2A
Geiselle rifles not getting good reviews

go with something else

 

[Glassaholic]

^^^ ignore and move on

 

[n2ishun]

Since DD is going to get sued by the Uvalde idiots, I'd be real hesitant about buying anything from them.
Might not be a company around for warranty stuff.
Just a heads up.

 

[Glassaholic]

I added a poll to make it easier to track.

 

[Glassaholic]

Since DD is going to get sued by the Uvalde idiots, I'd be real hesitant about buying anything from them.
Might not be a company around for warranty stuff.
Just a heads up.

We’ve seen this before, doubtful it will go anywhere. I’m sure DD will be just fine.

 

[Glassaholic]

I have a 10.3" DD upper and that barrel is an absolute tack driver with 55 VMAX. Stupid accurate.... I have the DD MFR handguard on mine, love it. One of my favorite SBR handguards... I'm not a Quad rail fan.

That’s good to know, I’ve heard good things about the 10.3 DD barrel - properly gassed for suppressed and unsuppressed and reasonably accurate for a short barrel. But like you not a quad rail fan.

 

[GUNNER10]

Anecdotally,

If you are doing a NV setup, I would go with the 11.5 as there may be a touch less flash. I sort of feel that if I wanted short rifle for NV stuff, I would probably do a 300 and shoot subs.

 

[Glassaholic]

Anecdotally,

If you are doing a NV setup, I would go with the 11.5 as there may be a touch less flash. I sort of feel that if I wanted short rifle for NV stuff, I would probably do a 300 and shoot subs.

Thanks for that, you think even suppressed it’s going to put out a lot? Of course with NV a little is a lot. I actually already have an SBR 300BLK (9.5”) and I love it, just had the itch for a 5.56 as well.

 

[S197]

I'm in a conundrum - through a series of fortunate events, I've been able to get ahold of two really nice short barrel uppers - a Daniel Defense Mk18 upper with 10.3 barrel and FDE (well DD's version of it) RIS II quad picatinny handguard as well as a Geissele Super Duty 11.5" all black with MLOK handguard.

Some things to be aware of, will mostly be shot suppressed and will be outfitted with NV gear - Steiner OTAL-C and Luna ELIR-3.

I am leaning toward the DD Mk18 but I am not a huge fan of quad rail handguards though it does make it convenient for mounting accessories.

For those with experience give me your pros and cons between the two. I don't think I can go wrong with either but thoughts would be appreciated as I may not be thinking of something fairly obvious to others....

Edit: I should mention both are brand new and have never been fired, not that it would make much of a difference.

View attachment 7944654

Running supressed, the Geissele 11.5 is softer / smoother because of the gas port size. The 11.5 will have better velocity. I’m not 100% on this but the Geissele feels lighter them my mk18.

 

[Desert_Racer]

11.5 master race, BUT…

Geissele is absolute garbage for anything other than triggers, rails and scope mounts. There’s plenty of data out there supporting this now. Friends don’t let friends buy Geissele uppers/complete rifles/barrels. The shittiest, most unreliable rifle I have ever owned, from any price point, complete or home built, was a Geissele super duty.

 

[S197]

That’s good to know, I’ve heard good things about the 10.3 DD barrel - properly gassed for suppressed and unsuppressed and reasonably accurate for a short barrel. But like you not a quad rail fan.

The DD commercial barrel is .070 and Geissele is .068. running both on the sbr lower with jp silent capture spring, the 11.5 Geissele is more pleasant to shoot, and no abrupt hits of gas in my nose.

Don’t get me wrong, I have a military built mk18 and I love it. For me I kept both.

 

[S197]

11.5 master race, BUT…

Geissele is absolute garbage for anything other than triggers, rails and scope mounts. There’s plenty of data out there supporting this now. Friends don’t let friends buy Geissele uppers/complete rifles/barrels. The shittiest, most unreliable rifle I have ever owned, from any price point, complete or home built, was a Geissele super duty.

Wow, I have had the complete opposite experience with the ones that I own And I have always been against Geissele.

 

[TxWelder35]

Just built an 11.5 sooo

11.5 gets my vote. 10.3 is getting too close to the velocity threshold for expansion with 77gn bullets.

11.5 supposedly shoots softer. Something about dwell time yada yada.

Don’t like quad rails

 

[GUNNER10]

Thanks for that, you think even suppressed it’s going to put out a lot? Of course with NV a little is a lot. I actually already have an SBR 300BLK (9.5”) and I love it, just had the itch for a 5.56 as well.

I seem to recall a video on youtube a few years back where somebody compared a 10.5 vs 11.5 with surefire can at night, and there noticeably more flash. I sort of think it the flash thing inversely follows the same curve as velocity where past a point, the results are not as profound as length is increased.

If you have a modular can that you can run a flash hider end cap, i think a good bit of the flash of a 10.5 can be mitigated but that also would translate to an 11.5 as well.

Personally, I have shot my 10.5 MRP suppressed for years and its been great, but it has sort of been replaced by my 12/12.5 setups as i sort of feel they just offer better velocity, better flash reduction, milder recoil impulse, and when paired with a law folder, are a super compact package.

Just as I think its really hard to beat a good 12.5 set up in 556 for shootability, I think its really hard to beat a good 300BLK when going short, or doing stuff at night.


Here is one of my 12 inch set ups that replaced my 10.5

 

[Naaman]

OP, do you already own both of these? Why not just try them both out before deciding?

If you do keep the DD, they recently came out with the RIS III which is the same as the rail you have, but MLOK (its an easy swap because the mounting hardware/collar are interchangeable: no need to remove the barrel nut).

I have a Giessele 11.5 and still trying to decide if I like it... One more trip to the range and I'll decide whether to keep or get rid of it.

 

[Justinmpd]

I have run both suppressed and non suppressed. The Geissele to me runs better and shoots softer than the MK18. I ended up putting an adjustable gas block and Geissele rail on my MK18. I currently run the 11.5 Geissele with a Surefire suppressor and couldn’t be happier. It shoots soft and isn’t terribly gassy. Zero malfunctions.

 

[RUTGERS95]

^^^ ignore and move on

ok smart guy you shoot

tell me where I"m wrong?

Geiselle has had nothing but qc issues over the past two years, just look here or arfcom

as for DD, again prove me wrong

stop sucking at the teet of companies as a fanboy and actually be a discerning shopper

 

[corey4]

what about the DD m4v7 11.5 upper?

 

[Glassaholic]

ok smart guy you shoot

tell me where I"m wrong?

Geiselle has had nothing but qc issues over the past two years, just look here or arfcom

as for DD, again prove me wrong

stop sucking at the teet of companies as a fanboy and actually be a discerning shopper

I do not find your posts to be useful for the question at hand, you have an opinion, you've stated it and let that be the end of it.

 

[Glassaholic]

OP, do you already own both of these?

I do already own both of these, the picture from the original post is one I took of that two I have in hand.

Why not just try them both out before deciding?

That was the plan, but was curious if there was anything anyone had come across that would be worth looking into more.

If you do keep the DD, they recently came out with the RIS III which is the same as the rail you have, but MLOK (its an easy swap because the mounting hardware/collar are interchangeable: no need to remove the barrel nut).

I was not aware of that, looks like they only have the RIS III in longer lengths but eventually they'll come out with the short...

I have a Giessele 11.5 and still trying to decide if I like it... One more trip to the range and I'll decide whether to keep or get rid of it.

The 11.5 barrels seem to get more praise - velocity, softer, "better" suppressed, but the Mk18 has been a standard for years and I figured there's got to be a reason SOCOM settled on 10.3", but having been Army I also know that sometimes the "best" is not the driving factor behind decisions made at the top...

 

[Aaros143]

I runa geissele super duty 11.5 upper with a Griffin Recce 5, PEQ 15 and a set of dual tubes. Love that rifle.

I have it on a BCM lower with an A5 buffer system.

 

[Naaman]

I do already own both of these, the picture from the original post is one I took of that two I have in hand.

That was the plan, but was curious if there was anything anyone had come across that would be worth looking into more.

I was not aware of that, looks like they only have the RIS III in longer lengths but eventually they'll come out with the short...

The 11.5 barrels seem to get more praise - velocity, softer, "better" suppressed, but the Mk18 has been a standard for years and I figured there's got to be a reason SOCOM settled on 10.3", but having been Army I also know that sometimes the "best" is not the driving factor behind decisions made at the top...

The RIS III rails are "available" through Brownells, but they'll have to "cool off" before you find one in stock. Just an FYI for future reference in case it tips the scale for you.

11.5 is the shortest I have experience with (and that experience is extremely limited).

My current thinking re: 5.56 is that, given the success of the 10.3, I'd prefer that to an 11.5 as long as I had access to a 14.5-16" option as a GP set up. If I wanted just one rifle, I'd choose a length in between 11.5 and 14.5 inclusive (probably a 13.7; maybe 12.5, since in your case, you don't mind the tax stamp). Obviously, in the one rifle scenario, 11.5" is "better" than 10.3" in almost every way that matters.

For whatever its worth, the reason I'm thinking about getting rid of the Geissele is because I'm not convinced of it's quality. I plan to take it out one more time to once-and-for-all rule out shooter error before deciding whether to keep it (I really like it "on paper"). That said, if we remove the manufacturers from the equation and just look at barrel lengths (and handguards), my vote would be somewhat non-committal:

11.5 is more useful overall,
10.3 is better in very specific situations (backpack, vehicle, etc.).

Even still, the trade-offs would be almost negligible, IMO (they are both probably more than adequate across the board as SBRs)

 

[Glassaholic]

The RIS III rails are "available" through Brownells, but they'll have to "cool off" before you find one in stock. Just an FYI for future reference in case it tips the scale for you.

11.5 is the shortest I have experience with (and that experience is extremely limited).

My current thinking re: 5.56 is that, given the success of the 10.3, I'd prefer that to an 11.5 as long as I had access to a 14.5-16" option as a GP set up. If I wanted just one rifle, I'd choose a length in between 11.5 and 14.5 inclusive (probably a 13.7; maybe 12.5, since in your case, you don't mind the tax stamp). Obviously, in the one rifle scenario, 11.5" is "better" than 10.3" in almost every way that matters.

For whatever its worth, the reason I'm thinking about getting rid of the Geissele is because I'm not convinced of it's quality. I plan to take it out one more time to once-and-for-all rule out shooter error before deciding whether to keep it (I really like it "on paper"). That said, if we remove the manufacturers from the equation and just look at barrel lengths (and handguards), my vote would be somewhat non-committal:

11.5 is more useful overall,
10.3 is better in very specific situations (backpack, vehicle, etc.).

Even still, the trade-offs would be almost negligible, IMO (they are both probably more than adequate across the board as SBRs)

I appreciate your feedback, given me some more to think about. I have an 18" SPR and 9.5" 300BLK so this wouldn't be my only AR. I've seen some of the issues with Geissele but I've also seen a lot of shooters very happy with them so , I try not to get too caught up in the hype.

 

[Naaman]

I appreciate your feedback, given me some more to think about. I have an 18" SPR and 9.5" 300BLK so this wouldn't be my only AR. I've seen some of the issues with Geissele but I've also seen a lot of shooters very happy with them so , I try not to get too caught up in the hype.

Definitely. If the one you have is GTG, its a moot point.

 

[aslrookie]

For NV, I’d definitely go with the 11.5” setup. Once you start mounting all of your night gear on that rail, that Mk18 is going to feel cramped really quickly. The 11.5 will give you a little more room which could make the difference between a comfortable setup vs a compromised/cramped setup.

I do enjoy some old school quad rail stuff, but unless you’re into cloning or old school setups, they’re not as modular. When it comes to NV setups, you have to remember that your rifle has to be manipulated by feel as your nods will be focused away and your hands blurry. Thus, having a comfortable and consistent setup will make things like using lights, lasers, sights, and etc that much smoother.

My 11.5 with PEQ15 and modlite just barely make it work. My 11.5 has a rail same length as Mk18. But it’s mlok and not quad. If it was quad, I probably wouldn’t be able to make it work as well. You’ll have many more mounting and setup options with the 11.5

 

[Justinmpd]

For NV, I’d definitely go with the 11.5” setup. Once you start mounting all of your night gear on that rail, that Mk18 is going to feel cramped really quickly. The 11.5 will give you a little more room which could make the difference between a comfortable setup vs a compromised/cramped setup.

I do enjoy some old school quad rail stuff, but unless you’re into cloning or old school setups, they’re not as modular. When it comes to NV setups, you have to remember that your rifle has to be manipulated by feel as your nods will be focused away and your hands blurry. Thus, having a comfortable and consistent setup will make things like using lights, lasers, sights, and etc that much smoother.

My 11.5 with PEQ15 and modlite just barely make it work. My 11.5 has a rail same length as Mk18. But it’s mlok and not quad. If it was quad, I probably wouldn’t be able to make it work as well. You’ll have many more mounting and setup options with the 11.5

I agree. My 11.5 is set up for NV and it’s perfect balance.

 

[the monk]

Whats it for? Will you be shooting it with a can?

 

[Naaman]

For NV, I’d definitely go with the 11.5” setup. Once you start mounting all of your night gear on that rail, that Mk18 is going to feel cramped really quickly. The 11.5 will give you a little more room which could make the difference between a comfortable setup vs a compromised/cramped setup.

I do enjoy some old school quad rail stuff, but unless you’re into cloning or old school setups, they’re not as modular. When it comes to NV setups, you have to remember that your rifle has to be manipulated by feel as your nods will be focused away and your hands blurry. Thus, having a comfortable and consistent setup will make things like using lights, lasers, sights, and etc that much smoother.

My 11.5 with PEQ15 and modlite just barely make it work. My 11.5 has a rail same length as Mk18. But it’s mlok and not quad. If it was quad, I probably wouldn’t be able to make it work as well. You’ll have many more mounting and setup options with the 11.5

Check out the Hyrdra mount by GBRS.

GBRS Group Hydra Mount Kit

The GBRS Group Hydra Mount Kit is the first dual optic mount designed for end-users that offers a 2.91” Optic Centerline for faster target ID, regardless of gear/ equipment obstructions. COMPATIBILITY: AIMPOINT • EOTECH | COLORS: FDE • Black

gbrsgroupgear.com

 

[aslrookie]

Check out the Hyrdra mount by GBRS.

GBRS Group Hydra Mount Kit

The GBRS Group Hydra Mount Kit is the first dual optic mount designed for end-users that offers a 2.91” Optic Centerline for faster target ID, regardless of gear/ equipment obstructions. COMPATIBILITY: AIMPOINT • EOTECH | COLORS: FDE • Black

gbrsgroupgear.com

Gay. Looks great for flat range but screams snag hazard galore.

 

[CoriolisEffect]

I would say try to find a KAC 11.5

 

[Glassaholic]

I would say try to find a KAC 11.5

There is that… probably the penultimate SBR upper. Is the cost really justified though, has always been my question.

I’ve had a few PM’s recommending some other options. I could just scratch both the DD and Geissele and look at something else entirely. Now would be the time before I take them out and shoot them and they drop value.

 

[n2ishun]

Upper:
Barrel, gas tube, gas block, receiver, muzzle device, handguard or rail system.
Sometimes comes with a BCG and a charging handle.

Not going to dig up all the prices and minor details, but...
You can probably buy the very best of each item like a Bartlien or Kreiger barrel, etc etc, and still be right at the price a DD or Gaysmell is.
They don't have any magic fairy dust to somehow makes theirs *special* and/or better in any way.
Is a roll mark really worth that much, or are you not confident that you can screw a barrel nut on and get it right ?
That is the only thing they provide that is different, a roll mark.
Every part will have a warranty that is about the same as theirs, and customer support to back it, just like they do.

Buy the exact parts you want, don't compromise.
Build it however you see fit.
Profit.

 

[Glassaholic]

Upper:
Barrel, gas tube, gas block, receiver, muzzle device, handguard or rail system.
Sometimes comes with a BCG and a charging handle.

Not going to dig up all the prices and minor details, but...
You can probably buy the very best of each item like a Bartlien or Kreiger barrel, etc etc, and still be right at the price a DD or Gaysmell is.
They don't have any magic fairy dust to somehow makes theirs *special* and/or better in any way.
Is a roll mark really worth that much, or are you not confident that you can screw a barrel nut on and get it right ?
That is the only thing they provide that is different, a roll mark.
Every part will have a warranty that is about the same as theirs, and customer support to back it, just like they do.

Buy the exact parts you want, don't compromise.
Build it however you see fit.
Profit.

I’ve been building AR’s for a while now and while I trust I can put one together properly there’s something to be said for the time and effort a mfr puts in to making sure a rifle/upper will function reliably in all kinds of situations and environments. Maybe I’m giving too much credit to that process or at least with certain manufactures…

 

[Coloradocarbine]

I run the 11.85” PWS mk111 with adjustable gas system. For suppressed work it is a dream. Bonus is that once you get to 12” the difference between that and a 14.5 is nothing. Classic firearms (I know, they are kind of a joke) did a test a few months back on different barrel lengths and the 12 was as fast as the 14.5. All this being said, is that you can easily got to 300 yards still and get expansion. Just some random thoughts for you.

 

[Glassaholic]

I run the 11.85” PWS mk111 with adjustable gas system. For suppressed work it is a dream. Bonus is that once you get to 12” the difference between that and a 14.5 is nothing. Classic firearms (I know, they are kind of a joke) did a test a few months back on different barrel lengths and the 12 was as fast as the 14.5. All this being said, is that you can easily got to 300 yards still and get expansion. Just some random thoughts for you.

You’re not the only one to recommend PWS to me, I do like piston systems for suppressor use…

 

[Coloradocarbine]

You’re not the only one to recommend PWS to me, I do like piston systems for suppressor use…

I don’t have a ton of rounds down range with it yet, but it has been 100% reliable so far. Soft shooting. I’m not pushing the whole piston thing as I have had great results with Colt and DD as well. But when running a can it’s nice having the adjustable gas. Looks at it another way…the guys who are contracted, and get to pick their weapon, use the HK416 D10rs (10.4”). This is the cream of the crop piston system. Unless you want to shell out $2k plus, for just an upper, that may be slightly used, and get on a waiting list….well… imho the PWS mk111 is next best. The two you have are nice as well, but I’d sell one, but the mk111, make it a dedicated can gun, and just have the other for fun. Ymmv

 

[Bart]

Glass,
I had a list of criteria (short, suppressed, un suppressed, no drama between the two, and accurate), and the sbr pws upper proved to be the ticket. In spades. My criteria may be different, but the only place the PWS falls short in is weight. So I took off the full sized cloud rein
My great friend/run and gun/class junkie loves both his DD and G guns in an unhealthy way.
Happy to obfuscate!!
Good luck, no real wrong choice.

 

[AngryKoala]

11.5 master race, BUT…

Geissele is absolute garbage for anything other than triggers, rails and scope mounts. There’s plenty of data out there supporting this now. Friends don’t let friends buy Geissele uppers/complete rifles/barrels. The shittiest, most unreliable rifle I have ever owned, from any price point, complete or home built, was a Geissele super duty.

I mean that's your experience but I and others have had a great experience. Sucks to know their quality went downhill.

 

[AngryKoala]

There is that… probably the penultimate SBR upper. Is the cost really justified though, has always been my question.

I’ve had a few PM’s recommending some other options. I could just scratch both the DD and Geissele and look at something else entirely. Now would be the time before I take them out and shoot them and they drop value.

Is the cost justified....no. however, it is a great upper and the resale value is great if you do ever need to offload it.

 

[Glassaholic]

Glass,
I had a list of criteria (short, suppressed, un suppressed, no drama between the two, and accurate), and the sbr pws upper proved to be the ticket. In spades. My criteria may be different, but the only place the PWS falls short in is weight. So I took off the full sized cloud rein
My great friend/run and gun/class junkie loves both his DD and G guns in an unhealthy way.
Happy to obfuscate!!
Good luck, no real wrong choice.

I'm actually starting to lean in the PWS direction now. Appreciate the PM's and feedback thus far...

 

[Molon]

There is that… probably the penultimate SBR upper.

 

[Coloradocarbine]

Lol. I looked it up myself. I didn’t know the true meaning either.

 

[hlee]

Or, maybe he does and is bring both cheeky and mysterious…